Is the grade on my St. Gaudens Double Eagle correct?
silvergold1700
Posts: 10 ✭
I recently ordered a NGC MS-65 from an online bullion dealer and received the following. I'm new to collecting, so I was expecting much higher quality at MS-65. The scuff on the face of Lady Liberty is off-putting to my eyes. Am I wrong to expect more from the grade?
Sorry, I don't know how to include a photo within the message. Here is a link to the photo: https://imgur.com/a/JzCyqZa
0
Comments
Welcome to the forum.
I only saw an obverse image but the coin looked OK to me. Before making your purchase, had you viewed a good number of other examples in hand, in order to get some perspective?
Grades are opinions, so while people can agree or disagree with them, they’re not necessarily “correct” or “incorrect”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
64 no CAC
Thanks for the welcome. Glad to be here.
By ok, do you mean the grade is correct to you? The other side of the coin looks fine to me. No complaints. Before purchasing, I had only read descriptions of the different grades and viewed some images of what the different grades should look like. I never viewed any in person.
My concern is that resale might be difficult with the mark on Liberty’s head. The link below states, “Marks on important features, such as the date and mintmark or Liberty's face, weigh more heavily when grading a coin than do marks hidden within the folds of Liberty's gown or the eagle's feathers.”
https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading-guide/grading-st-gaudens-20/
What does “no CAC” mean?
Was this a stock photo purchase, advertised as a random date MS65 Saint?
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
I have many slabbed Saints and your coin looks to be a properly graded MS65. If you want a nicer looking coin with fewer marks, buy a MS66 or higher but be prepared to spend a lot more money for it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
.
.
.
.
So based off of your reply and the image, I think you are asking about the dark 'spots' on the coin and particularly the one on the face?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
@silvergold1700 ... Welcome aboard. I see the issue you are concerned with.... Looking at the overall coin, I would say the grade is fair (obverse view only). That being said, if the issue concerns you, it will always concern you. Which means you will not be happy with the coin. So, either send it back, if possible, or sell it, and buy one you are happy with. Cheers, RickO
By "OK", I mean that the coin appears to fall into the category of what's typically graded MS65. I don't really like it, but I don't like most MS65 examples, as I feel that the grading of Saints tends to be liberal.
Some potential buyers will be bothered by the area you mentioned, while others might not care. Regardless, if you don't like it and can return it for a refund, you should. I also recommend that you look at a lot of on-line images of MS65 examples, in order to get a better feel for what they look like and what to expect.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would be disappointed as well. While the technical grade may be correct, that is THE PRIME focal area on the coin. If it were me, I'd return it for another if possible.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
There was an interesting discussion yesterday about the effects of rubber bands on coins (https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1077404/who-else-hates-rubber-bands#latest).
Out of curiosity, is that mark possibly an old rubber band mark, something else, or impossible to tell?
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
I can see it graded 65, but I would also be a little disappointed. Send it back if you can.
It was. I’m guessing that was a mistake. Where is the best place for a newbie to safely buy at the lowest price?
That is correct. The scuff on the face is dark in most types of light.
Thanks for the input everyone. I’m glad to hear that it is comparable to other MS-65s. I think I will try to return it, because the face is the focal point, which lessens the coin’s desirability.
You can buy anywhere. Safety and price come from you research.
Avoid stock photos.
Avoid raw coins until you're confident.
Make sure there are good photos, lit properly and in focus.
Research and study before you buy.
The 1924 is a common date and there are lost of coins to choose from. Look for a MS65 with minimal marks and strong luster. I have seen a lot of high quality 1924 MS65 for sale. I agree if you do not like it, return it as you can do better.
Grade looks right based on pic shown, i don't think i would have paid more than 64 money for it tho
Jmo
I agree with others that the 65 grade is accurate. That said that darkened area on the head is not a scuff mark. It is an area of dark toning. If it was a scuff mark it would not accurately grade a 65.
Barring extraordinarily unusual circumstances, you’re not going to get a 65 for 64 money, even if it’s a dog, a pig or worse.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Someone on this forum once said, "If you only see the coin's problem when you look at it, you should not own it."
Liz Coggin of JJ Tea Party fame once told me, "I want to buy your MS Saints, but if there are any black spots I will give you a reduced purchase price."
Personally, I also don't like the black spots at 6:00.
On a good note....we've all been through something like this, and we learn from it.
Welcome aboard!!
If that’s an accurate quote from Ms.Coggan, it sounds like virtually every MS Saint of any grade would be subject to a “reduced purchase price”. But seeing as how you misspelled her last name, I’m skeptical of the quote’s accuracy.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
OK I spelled her last name incorrectly, been a while since we did business....it's Coggan.
She basically said she wanted to buy MS Saints without black marks or the price would be reduced by a set percentage.
These transactions took place back when gold spot was ~$600/oz.
Sorry you are skeptical about my statement.
Those allegedly toned areas mostly seem to be on high points. I've bought quite a few 65 saints recently and this is a first for me.
It looks like an average 65. IMHO, you could do better. Look at the coin first before you buy it. That's a $2,200-2,300 coin off BST.
I would pay 66 money for a dog. I love dogs.
There’s a huge difference between wanting to buy Saints without “black marks” vs. wanting to buy them without “any marks”, as per your original quote. Thanks for the clarification.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would suggest buying from an auction house as you can get a good look at it before you buy, you usually have a week or more. I recommend Heritage Auction (20% buyers fee on top of bid price) or Great Collections (10-12% fee). Look on PCGS buyers guide for the coin that you are thinking about buying to get an idea of top of the market price. On the auction sites unless you dont have the numbers or you absolutely want a particular coin you should be able to purchase without over paying. As mentioned earlier the higher the MS grade the more you will pay.
Good luck!
AS someone who knows less about coins than almost anyone on the board ... here goes.
IMO .. 65 Saints are slightly better than 64's (not materially).
66's have a better look. How much better? Look at the price diff between a 65 &66. If a 64 is $2300 a 65 might be $2500... a 66 might be $3400? My price estimates are for comparisons only. My point... the higher up the scale one goes.. the better the look... and the increase in price starts to accelerate. Be prepared to pay up for happiness. All coins have fleas. There happens to be a few less on the 66 versus the 65. Perhaps you might wish to look at 67's & up?
Similar to the comment above, when it came to Liberty $20 Gold Coins, if they have a beard, usually caused by wear, I pass. I wanted coins that didn't look like your coin or what I have described. You never know when you might want to sell and if you have artifacts on the coin people will pass until you lower the price enough to make them buy it, but that also means you lost money.
Also, PCGS graded coins are desired in the market as opposed to NGC, ANACS etc. Again you might pay more but you will also find it easier to sell at the same price point as a different TPG (Third Party Grading).
Bearded coin
No beard
Now there might be other reasons to buy a beard coin, maybe its got a limited number in the market and the non beard coins are uber expensive. Or perhaps you collect all AU55 coins and in a particular year that is all that is available so that is what you have to get. But if I dont have constraints like those mentioned, then I go for no beard....or in your case no black marks or wear on the face of Liberty, which your coin shows.
Please take our comments in the spirit and honesty they were given. Nothing malicious intended.
I stand corrected. You are indeed a man of conviction. I did say 'any marks' and I should have said 'black marks.'
You also might want to study the images on CoinFacts to help you see various grade levels and to sharpen your eye:
https://pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1924-20/images/9177
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
A quick glance at that piece and many people will assume high point cabinet rub.
If that was my coin and in hand that IS in fact simply tone/discoloration from resting against some odd surface... I'd want to acetone it or similar.
No, I appreciate every comment. I’m hear to learn and prefer the blunt honesty. Regarding the Liberty, another coin I was interested in, what grade do you have to start looking in to find beard free? I noticed that the price jumps significantly above MS-64, so I’m assuming the answer is probably MS-65 and above?
A great many lower grade $20 Liberty’s don’t display marks of that type - even circulated examples.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Why? This is the last type of coin I would buy at auction, not least because the spreads make it foolish to sell at auction.
Try going to a coin show. Usually lots of gold coins to look at. You will get a better feel for what certain coins look like in certain grades.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
Based on the obverse photo I suspect the 65 grade is correct. I know I always tend to undergrade gold on the guess the grade posts, it seems hits on gold are not viewed as harshly as hits on silver. Your coin overall looks nice and I would expect a couple hits on a 65. It is unfortunate that the contact point was her face. When I looked for my example I had noticed that Liberty's nose was a high point that was commonly damaged. I searched for a while and made sure mine had a full nose. I also ended up going with 66. Personally I think it would take a 68 to really make me happy but my pocketbook kept slapping my face when my eyes gazed that direction.
MS65 and even MS66 Saints aren’t rare and there are plenty of opportunities to buy them in auctions, on-line and at coin shows. There’s no need to limit your choices by focusing on any one of those options.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.