I would think it's safe to say that a preponderance of Cheerios consumers nationwide are not numismatists- so I would think I am equally safe in saying that a good many of the Sacs were simply ripped out and spent.
It's hard to believe or understand any scenario with this Cheerios dollar. Seems to be all speculation. Ask five people, you get five different explanations (as indicated above). I'm completely wrapped around the axle on this.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I would assume that if General Mills worked out the details for a 20,000,000 package promotion well in advance of actually putting coins into cereal boxes, which would be logical, then it KNEW that it needed 5,500 Dollar coins and therefore it ORDERED 5,500 Dollar coins. What's the Mint going to do? Tell them no? The Mint wanted this promotion to work.
The Mint, not wanting to have to set up a second special production run, would have struck AT LEAST 5,500 coins, plus an unknown quantity of extras to allow for rejects in the batch to be replaced with other coins. Some of those extra coins might have been the vending machine test coins I saw at a press conference for the vending machine industry in Chicago in October of 1999. What happened to the press conference coins after the press conference we will never know. They might have been melted, they might have been bought by Mint personnel at face value as souvenirs of the new coinage, or they might simply have been tossed into the output of the regular production runs that began only a few weeks later.
All that said, it is a known fact that some of the coins in the Cheerios packages do not have the pattern reverse. My theory is that when General Mills, or the subcontractor who was doing the actual packaging for them, received the coins, some of them were badly spotted. I remember that when the coins became available we ordered a box of 1,000 to give out as change at our coin shop, and a lot of the coins were badly spotted. I believe that General Mills ordered an unknown quantity of replacement coins and used those to finish up the 5,500 two-coin holders. I remember that the various flavors of Cheerios in the special promotion boxes were on store shelves well into March of 2000, if not later.
What happened to the hypothetical reject coins with the pattern reverse we will never know. They might have been melted or, since nobody at the Mint understood that they were different, they might simply have been tossed into the output of the regular production runs that had already began.
Why are so few slabbed? Were you ever a kid? If you found money in your cereal box wouldn't you spend it? The single pennies were worthless enough even then that a lot of the single coin holders got saved as curiosities, but a dollar would still get you a candy bar back then.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@OAKSTAR said:
Back to the Cheerios Dollar pop/census report numbers.
How many Cheerio dollars were minted? The total number of these coins that were struck is unknown. However, the number of these coins that can potentially be in collector's hands is 5,500. That is the number of "Cheerios Dollars" released in cereal boxes.
If I'm reading the pop reports correctly.
I'm also not aware of any other TPG'er pop reports.
Totals Graded Cheerios Dollar, as of 10 Sept 23.
PCGS: 153
NGC: 45
ANACS: 12
I need a reality check. Am I missing something? Am I in the ballpark here?
A total of about 210 graded?? Which means there could be some 5,290 floating around out there today??
My guess is you are as most likely were found by school kids at breakfast, pocketing their good fortune and spent.
@telephoto1 said:
I would think it's safe to say that a preponderance of Cheerios consumers nationwide are not numismatists- so I would think I am equally safe in saying that a good many of the Sacs were simply ripped out and spent.
Probably. But then they should be found in circulation by CRHs.
It's kind of interesting that there aren't many circs. Either people don't look for them or they are all in Ecuador.
Why are so few slabbed? Were you ever a kid? If you found money in your cereal box wouldn't you spend it? The single pennies were worthless enough even then that a lot of the single coin holders got saved as curiosities, but a dollar would still get you a candy bar back then.
But that doesn't really answer the question why so few are apparently slabbed. So kids found them a spent them or there still sitting in the cellophane wrappers as curiosities. Which means they are in circulation somewhere or sock draws. It's only us guys that really know about them....which is a very very tiny % of the population. I'm thinking the vast majority of the population knows nothing of these coins.
I'm not arguing with you, just throwing out opinions. I'm still lost but that's okay, I'm slow.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@telephoto1 said:
I would think it's safe to say that a preponderance of Cheerios consumers nationwide are not numismatists- so I would think I am equally safe in saying that a good many of the Sacs were simply ripped out and spent.
Probably. But then they should be found in circulation by CRHs.
It's kind of interesting that there aren't many circs. Either people don't look for them or they are all in Ecuador.
If they're in Ecuador, they probably look like this by now.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@telephoto1 said:
I would think it's safe to say that a preponderance of Cheerios consumers nationwide are not numismatists- so I would think I am equally safe in saying that a good many of the Sacs were simply ripped out and spent.
Probably. But then they should be found in circulation by CRHs.
It's kind of interesting that there aren't many circs. Either people don't look for them or they are all in Ecuador.
My bank NEVER has rolls of dollar coins to buy to look through. They save the dribs and drabs that get deposited for me, but that is usually only 10-15 coins per month.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@telephoto1 said:
I would think it's safe to say that a preponderance of Cheerios consumers nationwide are not numismatists- so I would think I am equally safe in saying that a good many of the Sacs were simply ripped out and spent.
Probably. But then they should be found in circulation by CRHs.
It's kind of interesting that there aren't many circs. Either people don't look for them or they are all in Ecuador.
My bank NEVER has rolls of dollar coins to buy to look through. They save the dribs and drabs that get deposited for me, but that is usually only 10-15 coins per month.
Would or could your bank order a box for you?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I notice that PCGS has never graded one below MS63. Makes me conclude PCGS simply will not grade them if out of the original plastic, which explains the low pops.
There are obviously some that exist in circulated condition that could be graded, and they are not all in Ecuador
The general consensus among banker friends is that banks flat out don't like small dollars and never have. Same thing with Ikes. They look at them as a nuisance. It's always been a love/hate thing with SBA/Sac/Prez bucks. Either people hoard them or they want nothing to do with them... but virtually no one actually uses them. As far as the Cheerios pieces are concerned, I'm sure there are some laying around mixed into rolls, etc. but not everyone is a CRH. Some people just hoard and stack certain things for whatever reason. As to the "won't slab it unless it's in the original package" thing, perhaps our host can speak to this...but I've never known that to be the case.
@telephoto1 said:
I would think it's safe to say that a preponderance of Cheerios consumers nationwide are not numismatists- so I would think I am equally safe in saying that a good many of the Sacs were simply ripped out and spent.
Probably. But then they should be found in circulation by CRHs.
It's kind of interesting that there aren't many circs. Either people don't look for them or they are all in Ecuador.
My bank NEVER has rolls of dollar coins to buy to look through. They save the dribs and drabs that get deposited for me, but that is usually only 10-15 coins per month.
Would or could your bank order a box for you?
They won't even stock $2 bills that I ask for every time I go in there. Again they save the odd used that comes in for me, but I love using nice crisp ones at tip money.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@telephoto1 said:
I would think it's safe to say that a preponderance of Cheerios consumers nationwide are not numismatists- so I would think I am equally safe in saying that a good many of the Sacs were simply ripped out and spent.
Probably. But then they should be found in circulation by CRHs.
It's kind of interesting that there aren't many circs. Either people don't look for them or they are all in Ecuador.
My bank NEVER has rolls of dollar coins to buy to look through. They save the dribs and drabs that get deposited for me, but that is usually only 10-15 coins per month.
Would or could your bank order a box for you?
They won't even stock $2 bills that I ask for every time I go in there. Again they save the odd used that comes in for me, but I love using nice crisp ones at tip money.
It's funny how things work out. I give the small dollars as tips. You'd be surprised how many people don't even know what they are. 🤣 😂
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
The PCGS guidance below only covers Cheerios dollars that were in sealed packages sent in for grading and confirms they must have 1999 reverses with the detailed tail feathers to get the Cheerios designation.
I can't find anything that states PCGS will not grade a 2000 Sacagawea with the 1999 reverse in circulated condition. However, after 22 years only one MS63 has been graded and not even one coin in a lower grade.
It is logical to assume that many were broken out of the cereal box holders and spent into circulation, and so one would expect after 22 years someone would have found one and sent it in for grading.
I could crack out my MS68 and carry it around in my key and change pocket for a few months and send it in to try for a circulated Cheerios grade, but I don't want to risk my grading money if they won't slab the Cheerios variety out of the packaging .
Maybe there should be a specific PCGS variety label that only states "2000 Sacagawea with 1999 reverse" for any of these found in circulation. Technically a circulated coin probably shouldn't be labelled a Cheerios coin if they were not sent in sealed to prove they were in a cereal box and found with the 1999 reverse when opened at PCGS.
From PCGS Guidance:
Effective May 16, 2008
PCGS only applies the “Cheerios” designation to Sacagawea Dollars with the Reverse of 1999. PCGS bears no responsibility for the die type of Dollars submitted in unopened Cheerios packages, nor is PCGS obligated to designate any Dollar as a “Cheerios” Dollar simply because it came out of a sealed Cheerios package.
I could crack out my MS68 and carry it around in my key and change pocket for a few months and send it in to try for a circulated Cheerios grade, but I don't want to risk my grading money if they won't slab the Cheerios variety out of the packaging .
So you bought the coin slabbed or submitted it in the Cheerios packaging?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
As far as how many graded, I went to Heritage Auctions archive signed-in and usually the PCGS and NGC pops are stated in the text.
You have to be careful as there is a "base" #411990 FS-401 and #147231 FS-902 label versions and some are mixed up.
The 4th edition of the Cherrypickers guide also incorrectly called them FS-901, so labels and PCGS numbers are a mix. You also have to only look at the text for pop numbers, not the pop tables below, because those update to current numbers.
In Jan 2017 a FS-902 label stated 35 in MS68, and that is the same number 35 for the pop today, so apparently no new ones graded MS68 in that label in the last 6 years. There was a MS68 in the other label with a stated 26 pop. The current pop report for that label is 25 in MS68, but now there is a MS68+ so one upgraded to explain the difference.
One sold in April 2015 in the FS-401 in MS68 with a stated pop of 24, and that currently has a pop of 25. So, only one more of those graded in the last 7-8 years.
Checking Aug 2014, the MS68 pop FS-401 label was 23, so one was more graded by April 2015.
Going back to Jan 2012 another FS-401 showed a pop of 19. So, it looks like 5 more were graded with that label between those dates.
In May 2009 the FS-401 showed 15 so it looks like 4 were graded in that label in those 2-3 years.
It is not a perfect system, and I only focused on PCGS MS68, but it looks like only one or 2 new coins have been graded MS68 in either label in the past 6 years. It will be interesting to see what PCGS can offer for additional details.
I could crack out my MS68 and carry it around in my key and change pocket for a few months and send it in to try for a circulated Cheerios grade, but I don't want to risk my grading money if they won't slab the Cheerios variety out of the packaging .
So you bought the coin slabbed or submitted it in the Cheerios packaging?
Mine is a MS68 purchased already slabbed just like the MS67 I sold. Based on my review of these in MS68 grades above, only a couple have been graded MS68 in the past 6-7 years. Edited to say even a few that have been graded might be crossovers and not everyone sends the labels back to get the pops removed. These are very scarce coins and not many are being submitted.
I have held in my hands at least two circulated Cheerios dollars, an ANACS AU-55 and an ANACS AU-58 Details, Cleaned.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I believe that only the tiniest fraction of "circulated" Sacagawea dollars are being roll searched. There must be countless millions languishing in bank vaults, and it is easy to imagine that a few thousand Cheerios dollars could be hidden there.
As for Ecuador, I believe that the US government shipped new rolls (bags?) there. Also, circulated rolls would have included SBAs mixed in and I don't think Ecuador would have wanted those. So, unless one was hand-carried to Ecuador, I wouldn't expect to see a Cheerios dollar there.
@Namvet69 said:
Any General Mills archive info on this marketing project that might offer their decisions and analysis?
No, I asked them 15+ years ago and they said they had nothing.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@telephoto1 said:
I would think it's safe to say that a preponderance of Cheerios consumers nationwide are not numismatists- so I would think I am equally safe in saying that a good many of the Sacs were simply ripped out and spent.
Probably. But then they should be found in circulation by CRHs.
It's kind of interesting that there aren't many circs. Either people don't look for them or they are all in Ecuador.
My bank NEVER has rolls of dollar coins to buy to look through. They save the dribs and drabs that get deposited for me, but that is usually only 10-15 coins per month.
Would or could your bank order a box for you?
They won't even stock $2 bills that I ask for every time I go in there. Again they save the odd used that comes in for me, but I love using nice crisp ones at tip money.
It's funny how things work out. I give the small dollars as tips. You'd be surprised how many people don't even know what they are. 🤣 😂
@telephoto1 said:
I would think it's safe to say that a preponderance of Cheerios consumers nationwide are not numismatists- so I would think I am equally safe in saying that a good many of the Sacs were simply ripped out and spent.
Probably. But then they should be found in circulation by CRHs.
It's kind of interesting that there aren't many circs. Either people don't look for them or they are all in Ecuador.
My bank NEVER has rolls of dollar coins to buy to look through. They save the dribs and drabs that get deposited for me, but that is usually only 10-15 coins per month.
Would or could your bank order a box for you?
They won't even stock $2 bills that I ask for every time I go in there. Again they save the odd used that comes in for me, but I love using nice crisp ones at tip money.
It's funny how things work out. I give the small dollars as tips. You'd be surprised how many people don't even know what they are. 🤣 😂
They must HATE that. /OT
After I tell them what it is, they like it. 😉
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I asked PCGS if they will grade these out of the packaging or circulated as "reverse of 1999" or similar "Cheerios pattern reverse" and have not received a response.
I can say that after almost 10 years working for ANACS I've only ever seen one at my table. It was still carded with the cent and had the obverse die marker. The owner submitted it in the packaging along with the cent. I'm thinking this was around 2016...
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
@cmerlo1 said:
It was still carded with the cent and had the obverse die marker.
Can you translate this? You mean the die marker under the MM of the Cheerios dollar? What's carded with the cent?
The Cheerios dollars were mounted and sealed to a card along with a 2000 Lincoln cent that could be found in every 10,000th (?) Cheerios box. In this case, instead of being loose coins, they were submitted still packaged on the original Cheerios card because the customer wanted both coins certified as being 'Cheerios' coins. It would not have been possible to certify the cent as such without it being mounted to the original card. Since some Sacajawea dollars have been found on Cheerios cards that don't have the pattern reverse, the obverse die marker is the only way to tell if the dollar has the pattern reverse or not without removing the coins from the card.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
@Goldminers said:
I notice that PCGS has never graded one below MS63. Makes me conclude PCGS simply will not grade them if out of the original plastic, which explains the low pops.
There are obviously some that exist in circulated condition that could be graded, and they are not all in Ecuador
The dollar coins are numismatic varieties where the reverse design is different from the coins made for general circulation- it has nothing to do with the packaging. The TPG's will grade them as 'Cheerios' dollars even if the packaging isn't there.
I suspect the high grade ones are ones that remained in the original packaging until submitted.
This is not the case with the 'Cheerios' cents, as they are no different that any other 2000 Lincoln cent and without being sealed in the original packaging there is no way to know where they came from.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
@cmerlo1 said:
It was still carded with the cent and had the obverse die marker.
Can you translate this? You mean the die marker under the MM of the Cheerios dollar? What's carded with the cent?
The Cheerios dollars were mounted and sealed to a card along with a 2000 Lincoln cent that could be found in every 10,000th (?) Cheerios box. In this case, instead of being loose coins, they were submitted still packaged on the original Cheerios card because the customer wanted both coins certified as being 'Cheerios' coins. It would not have been possible to certify the cent as such without it being mounted to the original card. Since some Sacajawea dollars have been found on Cheerios cards that don't have the pattern reverse, the obverse die marker is the only way to tell if the dollar has the pattern reverse or not without removing the coins from the card.
Oh shoot "card" got it!!! Now I'm with you. Thanks!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@DCW said:
210 graded? That number alone surprises me. I would have thought far fewer.
That estimate of 5,500 coins must be overstated or those coins are well mixed in with the other normal coins somewhere in Ecuador
If an individual receives a valuable coin in circulation and doesn't know it's valuable it is improbable that he won't spend it. Every time a rare coin changes hands it is likely to be saved. And this is key to where all the rare moderns are; in circulation.
In 1963 if you spent a nice attractive VF 1916-D it wouldn't change hands more than 20 times before someone nabbed it and that would require mere days because of the high velocity of coins and the huge numbers of collectors.
People don't collect moderns. Rare coins can change hands hundreds of times without being recognized and some coins like SBA's rarely change hands at all. This is why almost all varieties of moderns are rare unless they appear in mint sets. Even the tough mint set varieties tend to be more common than the commonest coins made for circulation. For instance about 2,000,000 1971-D type h (b) reverse quarters were made. This coin is virtually unknown in Unc and is scarce in all grades. Every year more and more pass through their last hands because they are lost, discarded, or suffer misadventure. Survivors are heavily worn and usually cull.
I'm surprised as well there are so many graded. In a consumer society I'd have expected them to be consumed. some of these are likely regrades.
I'd expect most of the coins to be sitting in FED storage where we pay to have them protected. They are mixed in with pallets and pallets of BU coins and sitting in bags of very lightly circulated coins that the banks all worked together to gather up and return to the FED. The banks wasted countless millions of dollars and hamstrung the economy and the commonweal by providing only coins that are now virtually worthless and still unloved.
According to the box the odds of getting a dollar coin were approximately 1 in 2,000, though if there were 5,500 coins in 10,000,000 boxes the actual odds were approximately one in 1,818.
Remember, the dollar was actually the second prize. According to the box its value was one dollar. The top prize was the certificate good for 100 of the new dollars, to be mailed in for redemption. To the best of my knowledge none of the certificates exist today.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@DCW said: @CaptHenway
Can you imagine if you received 100 prototype dollars with one of those certificates?!
Talk about hitting the lottery!
I’ve never heard of anyone that redeemed one of those certificates. I assume that they simply ended up with non-collectors who cashed them in and spent them.
Since they could not be cash in until after January 1, I assume they distributed normal coins.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Here is the answer from PCGS. They will not grade the variety coins with the 1999 (Cheerios) reverse if not sent in sealed in the original packaging card holder. This is why only MS63 and above have been graded at PCGS. Yes, as shown above, ANACS grades them even if circulated, PCGS does not. Here is my email link:
@Goldminers said:
Here is the answer from PCGS. They will not grade the variety coins with the 1999 (Cheerios) reverse if not sent in sealed in the original packaging card holder. This is why only MS63 and above have been graded at PCGS. Yes, as shown above, ANACS grades them even if circulated, PCGS does not. Here is my email link:
Thx for the effort. I'd like to think the person who responded misunderstood the answer they gave. Otherwise, PCGS has an inexplicable policy about these.
There are two types of "Cheerios" dollas: the variety, and the normal reverse. If the term "Cheerios Dollar" applies to any dollar in the packaging, then that part of their answer makes sense. But, if they refuse to recognize the pattern on ita own, that's just absurd.
I agree the policy does not make sense. However, none of the known 2000 with the 1999 reverse variety coins in any grade, and none with the Cheerios's label have been graded less than MS63, so it seems to be the policy.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Several years ago, a local customer from Dunn, NC found one of the circulated cheerios dollars in circ in western NC, it was a bit dirty,grubby, been circulated to au range. But, this guy searches like 5000 dollars worth of change a week.
He found over 112 of those 2021 Die break pennies K-3/K-7 that were released around virginia tidewater area, not to mention bags of w mint quarters and numerous other things. I dont belive he ever tried to submit it, as he just keeps everything he finds, has no eager to sell anything(dosn't have too) Ill ask him about it, next time he comes in.
For years, I always thought somebody would come into the shop with one of those still in the cheerios package where it was saved by somebody or a relative. People bring boxes of coins and stuff they put back all the time, but never has one of those surfaced in my area in all the years.
Update: He came in today, he told me that ngc would not holder the cheerios unless submitted in actual package, so he sent to anacs. Anacs graded Au-58 , he said they did an article on him in NN, he said he would bring by a clipping and show me. Apparently his was one of the first ones found loose in the wild.
@jdimmick said:
Several years ago, a local customer from Dunn, NC found one of the circulated cheerios dollars in circ in western NC, it was a bit dirty,grubby, been circulated to au range. But, this guy searches like 5000 dollars worth of change a week. He found over 112 of those 2021 Die break pennies K-3/K-7 that were released around virginia tidewater area, not to mention bags of w mint quarters and numerous other things. I dont belive he ever tried to submit it, as he just keeps everything he finds, has no eager to sell anything(dosn't have too) Ill ask him about it, next time he comes in.
For years, I always thought somebody would come into the shop with one of those still in the cheerios package where it was saved by somebody or a relative. People bring boxes of coins and stuff they put back all the time, but never has one of those surfaced in my area in all the years.
Wait, let me get this straight.... Did you say this guy found 112 cheerios dollars??
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Comments
I would think it's safe to say that a preponderance of Cheerios consumers nationwide are not numismatists- so I would think I am equally safe in saying that a good many of the Sacs were simply ripped out and spent.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
It's hard to believe or understand any scenario with this Cheerios dollar. Seems to be all speculation. Ask five people, you get five different explanations (as indicated above). I'm completely wrapped around the axle on this.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I would assume that if General Mills worked out the details for a 20,000,000 package promotion well in advance of actually putting coins into cereal boxes, which would be logical, then it KNEW that it needed 5,500 Dollar coins and therefore it ORDERED 5,500 Dollar coins. What's the Mint going to do? Tell them no? The Mint wanted this promotion to work.
The Mint, not wanting to have to set up a second special production run, would have struck AT LEAST 5,500 coins, plus an unknown quantity of extras to allow for rejects in the batch to be replaced with other coins. Some of those extra coins might have been the vending machine test coins I saw at a press conference for the vending machine industry in Chicago in October of 1999. What happened to the press conference coins after the press conference we will never know. They might have been melted, they might have been bought by Mint personnel at face value as souvenirs of the new coinage, or they might simply have been tossed into the output of the regular production runs that began only a few weeks later.
All that said, it is a known fact that some of the coins in the Cheerios packages do not have the pattern reverse. My theory is that when General Mills, or the subcontractor who was doing the actual packaging for them, received the coins, some of them were badly spotted. I remember that when the coins became available we ordered a box of 1,000 to give out as change at our coin shop, and a lot of the coins were badly spotted. I believe that General Mills ordered an unknown quantity of replacement coins and used those to finish up the 5,500 two-coin holders. I remember that the various flavors of Cheerios in the special promotion boxes were on store shelves well into March of 2000, if not later.
What happened to the hypothetical reject coins with the pattern reverse we will never know. They might have been melted or, since nobody at the Mint understood that they were different, they might simply have been tossed into the output of the regular production runs that had already began.
Why are so few slabbed? Were you ever a kid? If you found money in your cereal box wouldn't you spend it? The single pennies were worthless enough even then that a lot of the single coin holders got saved as curiosities, but a dollar would still get you a candy bar back then.
My guess is you are as most likely were found by school kids at breakfast, pocketing their good fortune and spent.
Probably. But then they should be found in circulation by CRHs.
It's kind of interesting that there aren't many circs. Either people don't look for them or they are all in Ecuador.
But that doesn't really answer the question why so few are apparently slabbed. So kids found them a spent them or there still sitting in the cellophane wrappers as curiosities. Which means they are in circulation somewhere or sock draws. It's only us guys that really know about them....which is a very very tiny % of the population. I'm thinking the vast majority of the population knows nothing of these coins.
I'm not arguing with you, just throwing out opinions. I'm still lost but that's okay, I'm slow.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
If they're in Ecuador, they probably look like this by now.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
My bank NEVER has rolls of dollar coins to buy to look through. They save the dribs and drabs that get deposited for me, but that is usually only 10-15 coins per month.
Would or could your bank order a box for you?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I notice that PCGS has never graded one below MS63. Makes me conclude PCGS simply will not grade them if out of the original plastic, which explains the low pops.
There are obviously some that exist in circulated condition that could be graded, and they are not all in Ecuador
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Has that been stated somewhere by PCGS or other TPG'ers?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Not that I have seen in writing, but the grades would indicate it is likely.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
The general consensus among banker friends is that banks flat out don't like small dollars and never have. Same thing with Ikes. They look at them as a nuisance. It's always been a love/hate thing with SBA/Sac/Prez bucks. Either people hoard them or they want nothing to do with them... but virtually no one actually uses them. As far as the Cheerios pieces are concerned, I'm sure there are some laying around mixed into rolls, etc. but not everyone is a CRH. Some people just hoard and stack certain things for whatever reason. As to the "won't slab it unless it's in the original package" thing, perhaps our host can speak to this...but I've never known that to be the case.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
They won't even stock $2 bills that I ask for every time I go in there. Again they save the odd used that comes in for me, but I love using nice crisp ones at tip money.
It's funny how things work out. I give the small dollars as tips. You'd be surprised how many people don't even know what they are. 🤣 😂
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
The PCGS guidance below only covers Cheerios dollars that were in sealed packages sent in for grading and confirms they must have 1999 reverses with the detailed tail feathers to get the Cheerios designation.
I can't find anything that states PCGS will not grade a 2000 Sacagawea with the 1999 reverse in circulated condition. However, after 22 years only one MS63 has been graded and not even one coin in a lower grade.
It is logical to assume that many were broken out of the cereal box holders and spent into circulation, and so one would expect after 22 years someone would have found one and sent it in for grading.
I could crack out my MS68 and carry it around in my key and change pocket for a few months and send it in to try for a circulated Cheerios grade, but I don't want to risk my grading money if they won't slab the Cheerios variety out of the packaging
.
Maybe there should be a specific PCGS variety label that only states "2000 Sacagawea with 1999 reverse" for any of these found in circulation. Technically a circulated coin probably shouldn't be labelled a Cheerios coin if they were not sent in sealed to prove they were in a cereal box and found with the 1999 reverse when opened at PCGS.
From PCGS Guidance:
Effective May 16, 2008
PCGS only applies the “Cheerios” designation to Sacagawea Dollars with the Reverse of 1999. PCGS bears no responsibility for the die type of Dollars submitted in unopened Cheerios packages, nor is PCGS obligated to designate any Dollar as a “Cheerios” Dollar simply because it came out of a sealed Cheerios package.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
So you bought the coin slabbed or submitted it in the Cheerios packaging?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
As far as how many graded, I went to Heritage Auctions archive signed-in and usually the PCGS and NGC pops are stated in the text.
You have to be careful as there is a "base" #411990 FS-401 and #147231 FS-902 label versions and some are mixed up.
The 4th edition of the Cherrypickers guide also incorrectly called them FS-901, so labels and PCGS numbers are a mix. You also have to only look at the text for pop numbers, not the pop tables below, because those update to current numbers.
In Jan 2017 a FS-902 label stated 35 in MS68, and that is the same number 35 for the pop today, so apparently no new ones graded MS68 in that label in the last 6 years. There was a MS68 in the other label with a stated 26 pop. The current pop report for that label is 25 in MS68, but now there is a MS68+ so one upgraded to explain the difference.
One sold in April 2015 in the FS-401 in MS68 with a stated pop of 24, and that currently has a pop of 25. So, only one more of those graded in the last 7-8 years.
Checking Aug 2014, the MS68 pop FS-401 label was 23, so one was more graded by April 2015.
Going back to Jan 2012 another FS-401 showed a pop of 19. So, it looks like 5 more were graded with that label between those dates.
In May 2009 the FS-401 showed 15 so it looks like 4 were graded in that label in those 2-3 years.
It is not a perfect system, and I only focused on PCGS MS68, but it looks like only one or 2 new coins have been graded MS68 in either label in the past 6 years. It will be interesting to see what PCGS can offer for additional details.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Mine is a MS68 purchased already slabbed just like the MS67 I sold. Based on my review of these in MS68 grades above, only a couple have been graded MS68 in the past 6-7 years. Edited to say even a few that have been graded might be crossovers and not everyone sends the labels back to get the pops removed. These are very scarce coins and not many are being submitted.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I have held in my hands at least two circulated Cheerios dollars, an ANACS AU-55 and an ANACS AU-58 Details, Cleaned.
I see them a lot more now
Just a couple observations....
I believe that only the tiniest fraction of "circulated" Sacagawea dollars are being roll searched. There must be countless millions languishing in bank vaults, and it is easy to imagine that a few thousand Cheerios dollars could be hidden there.
As for Ecuador, I believe that the US government shipped new rolls (bags?) there. Also, circulated rolls would have included SBAs mixed in and I don't think Ecuador would have wanted those. So, unless one was hand-carried to Ecuador, I wouldn't expect to see a Cheerios dollar there.
You see what, a lot more now?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Any General Mills archive info on this marketing project that might offer their decisions and analysis?
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https://northeastcoin.com/featuredCoinDetail.jsp?FtrdCoinId=820#
No, I asked them 15+ years ago and they said they had nothing.
They must HATE that. /OT
After I tell them what it is, they like it. 😉
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Here's the 58 detailed:
Looks like there are now 3- 55's:
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I really feel the Sac dollars are the prettiest designs of modern coinage. Though, I've never collected them.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I asked PCGS if they will grade these out of the packaging or circulated as "reverse of 1999" or similar "Cheerios pattern reverse" and have not received a response.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I can say that after almost 10 years working for ANACS I've only ever seen one at my table. It was still carded with the cent and had the obverse die marker. The owner submitted it in the packaging along with the cent. I'm thinking this was around 2016...
Can you translate this? You mean the die marker under the MM of the Cheerios dollar? What's carded with the cent?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Check out http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page20c.html
There is apparently an obverse die marker (die polish lines).
The dollar and cent were laminated to a card. That's how they came out of the cereal box.
The Cheerios dollars were mounted and sealed to a card along with a 2000 Lincoln cent that could be found in every 10,000th (?) Cheerios box. In this case, instead of being loose coins, they were submitted still packaged on the original Cheerios card because the customer wanted both coins certified as being 'Cheerios' coins. It would not have been possible to certify the cent as such without it being mounted to the original card. Since some Sacajawea dollars have been found on Cheerios cards that don't have the pattern reverse, the obverse die marker is the only way to tell if the dollar has the pattern reverse or not without removing the coins from the card.
The dollar coins are numismatic varieties where the reverse design is different from the coins made for general circulation- it has nothing to do with the packaging. The TPG's will grade them as 'Cheerios' dollars even if the packaging isn't there.
I suspect the high grade ones are ones that remained in the original packaging until submitted.
This is not the case with the 'Cheerios' cents, as they are no different that any other 2000 Lincoln cent and without being sealed in the original packaging there is no way to know where they came from.
Here's a potential conundrum...
PCGS labels the pattern dollar as a "Cheerios Dollar". (I see that on some labels they added "FS-902").
PCGS will label a cent as a "Cheerios Cent" if it is submitted still sealed on the original card.
What would PCGS do if a sealed dollar was submitted, but it did not have the pattern reverse? How would they label that?
Oh shoot "card" got it!!! Now I'm with you. Thanks!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Great thread gents!! 👍🏻
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
If an individual receives a valuable coin in circulation and doesn't know it's valuable it is improbable that he won't spend it. Every time a rare coin changes hands it is likely to be saved. And this is key to where all the rare moderns are; in circulation.
In 1963 if you spent a nice attractive VF 1916-D it wouldn't change hands more than 20 times before someone nabbed it and that would require mere days because of the high velocity of coins and the huge numbers of collectors.
People don't collect moderns. Rare coins can change hands hundreds of times without being recognized and some coins like SBA's rarely change hands at all. This is why almost all varieties of moderns are rare unless they appear in mint sets. Even the tough mint set varieties tend to be more common than the commonest coins made for circulation. For instance about 2,000,000 1971-D type h (b) reverse quarters were made. This coin is virtually unknown in Unc and is scarce in all grades. Every year more and more pass through their last hands because they are lost, discarded, or suffer misadventure. Survivors are heavily worn and usually cull.
I'm surprised as well there are so many graded. In a consumer society I'd have expected them to be consumed. some of these are likely regrades.
I'd expect most of the coins to be sitting in FED storage where we pay to have them protected. They are mixed in with pallets and pallets of BU coins and sitting in bags of very lightly circulated coins that the banks all worked together to gather up and return to the FED. The banks wasted countless millions of dollars and hamstrung the economy and the commonweal by providing only coins that are now virtually worthless and still unloved.
According to the box the odds of getting a dollar coin were approximately 1 in 2,000, though if there were 5,500 coins in 10,000,000 boxes the actual odds were approximately one in 1,818.
Remember, the dollar was actually the second prize. According to the box its value was one dollar. The top prize was the certificate good for 100 of the new dollars, to be mailed in for redemption. To the best of my knowledge none of the certificates exist today.
TD
@CaptHenway
Can you imagine if you received 100 prototype dollars with one of those certificates?!
Talk about hitting the lottery!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I’ve never heard of anyone that redeemed one of those certificates. I assume that they simply ended up with non-collectors who cashed them in and spent them.
Since they could not be cash in until after January 1, I assume they distributed normal coins.
Here is the answer from PCGS. They will not grade the variety coins with the 1999 (Cheerios) reverse if not sent in sealed in the original packaging card holder. This is why only MS63 and above have been graded at PCGS. Yes, as shown above, ANACS grades them even if circulated, PCGS does not. Here is my email link:
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Can we deduce that General Mills did not have a numismatic consultant working on this merchandising project?
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Thx for the effort. I'd like to think the person who responded misunderstood the answer they gave. Otherwise, PCGS has an inexplicable policy about these.
There are two types of "Cheerios" dollas: the variety, and the normal reverse. If the term "Cheerios Dollar" applies to any dollar in the packaging, then that part of their answer makes sense. But, if they refuse to recognize the pattern on ita own, that's just absurd.
I agree the policy does not make sense. However, none of the known 2000 with the 1999 reverse variety coins in any grade, and none with the Cheerios's label have been graded less than MS63, so it seems to be the policy.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
My earlier thoughts on the matter:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1081577/it-is-time-for-the-tpgs-to-start-certifying-cheerios-pattern-reverse-dollars-pulled-from-circulation#latest
Several years ago, a local customer from Dunn, NC found one of the circulated cheerios dollars in circ in western NC, it was a bit dirty,grubby, been circulated to au range. But, this guy searches like 5000 dollars worth of change a week.
He found over 112 of those 2021 Die break pennies K-3/K-7 that were released around virginia tidewater area, not to mention bags of w mint quarters and numerous other things. I dont belive he ever tried to submit it, as he just keeps everything he finds, has no eager to sell anything(dosn't have too) Ill ask him about it, next time he comes in.
For years, I always thought somebody would come into the shop with one of those still in the cheerios package where it was saved by somebody or a relative. People bring boxes of coins and stuff they put back all the time, but never has one of those surfaced in my area in all the years.
Update: He came in today, he told me that ngc would not holder the cheerios unless submitted in actual package, so he sent to anacs. Anacs graded Au-58 , he said they did an article on him in NN, he said he would bring by a clipping and show me. Apparently his was one of the first ones found loose in the wild.
Wait, let me get this straight.... Did you say this guy found 112 cheerios dollars??
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )