Business strike and cameo-like. How did this happen to Liberty Nickels?

Aspie_Rocco

I have noticed quite a few Liberty nickels that have a cameo like appearance, usually On Liberty herself. What part of the minting process caused this feature and was it intended?
Reused proof dies?
I have noticed it most often on 1883 nickels but not exclusively.

pursuitofliberty

I don't think what you are seeing is "Cameo Proof Like" business strikes, so to speak ... I think it was a case of relatively fresh dies and the pressures and characteristics of how early Liberty Nickels struck up.

Many of these have somewhat "marbled" devices and smooth satiny fields, from what I have seen, although I have owned very few 1883's N/C's. These gave off the appearance I think you are describing.

I will be interested in other thoughts.

DisneyFan

It would be interesting to take these coins to a major show and ask knowledgeable dealers/auction houses what they think. The grading services were slow to recognize prooflike coins other than Morgan Dollars.

neildrobertson

It usually comes down to die preparation. In other types, you see these characteristics on first strikes or early strikes of new dies. It's more common for the fields to be polished more smoothly than the devices. The fields are the flatter, outermost portion of the die. It's comparatively easier to run the fields over a polishing media or wheel to get it nice and smooth. This smooth surface roughens and wears as coins are progressively struck and the proof-like qualities go away. I'm not familiar enough with Liberty Nickels to comment on the series. I'm just speaking in general terms.

If you see the nice surface and die cracks at the same time, it makes me think the die was refinished before being used more.

Reused proof dies won't necessarily make the coins look more like proofs. It's usually planchet preparation, die polishing, and extra strikes/striking pressure that make proofs look like proofs. Reused proof dies are only interesting if you are studying die pairings (in general).

justmenutty72

I have a mintstate 1892 that I cracked out of an old rattler. I’ll try to get a pic of it, it’s been buried in an album for years now. From what I remember it has a very sharp strike and proof-like fields.

yosclimber

I have a couple of similar 1883s.
An experienced dealer I asked said he thought they might be "torched".

Aspie_Rocco

All very interesting thoughts. I always felt the fields were a very nice business strike in appearance on these coins I am wondering about. The fields are not PL at all, just smooth business strike.

I own the toned 1883 in the photos and really like they way the face has that “marbled” whitish look. Thinking more about your comment @pursuitofliberty
I wonder if the marbled rough surface holds or scatters light differently enough compared to how fields reflect light more directly. It has die cracks but no obvious polish marks on the obverse. The reverse on my coin has straight diagonal polish marks running NW to SE.

I like your explanation @neildrobertson

What is torched @yosclimber ? Literally?

pursuitofliberty

@Aspie_Rocco said:

I wonder if the marbled rough surface holds or scatters light differently enough compared to how fields reflect light more directly.

This is what I always thought. A surface quality that "sort of" appeared to have a cameo contrast, but really much different on closer inspection.

Torched? Hmmmmm. Torched Die??

lilolme

Trying to think of how to answer this with what I know (or at least think I know). I am not a die master.

I will start with a dmpl Morgan dollar. It will have highly polished fields on the die that gives a very smooth deep PL finish when the coin is struck. Generally (not always) the device is not polished like this and the resulting device surface is 'rougher' and therefore it yields a dmpl with a cameo appearance.

However, the initial field surface may not be polished that much (or at all), then the die will yield a field surface similar to the devices and therefore a coin where the field to device has little contrast. This also happens as coins are struck and the die surfaces deteriorate including the polished field surface.

It is in the die preparation and the effect on the struck coin. Think about a reverse proof. Where the fields are frosted and the devices are 'shiny'. Here the die devices are polished and the fields are not. They can and will blast a die surface with beads (I believe it is sand and/or glass) to make a die surface rougher to produce the frosted effect on the coin when struck.

Or perhaps a satin proof surface.

There are other things to consider (like flow lines...) but this is a start I think.
Anyone with actual knowledge please correct any mis-wording or other.

neildrobertson

@Aspie_Rocco said:
All very interesting thoughts. I always felt the fields were a very nice business strike in appearance on these coins I am wondering about. The fields are not PL at all, just smooth business strike.

You only need to have differences in the surface roughness between the fields and devices to create a cameo effect. It doesn't have to conform to the definitions of proof-like for this to be true.