Wow, it's even worse than I thought. There are some appealing zones such as the right obverse field, but overall the coin is something of a train wreck. ETA: All those scrapes and striations on the reverse run roughshod right over the device so someone will have to explain that to me. Can't be die polishing so what is it?
The striations were in the strip of silver that was punched out into blanks. They weren’t totally struck out on the highest parts of the coin, which means the design in the die didn’t totally touch the eagle’s breast.
@edwardjulio said:
Wonder what the OP opines on this 67+ with Gold CAC?
The reverse of that coin is lovely. Of course, it's a trueview so who knows. Probably should go backwards in the slab because the obverse is, um, not lovely.
Nice coin. I'm willing to stipulate that CC pieces are notoriously baggy- but that activity on the obverse by UNUM still keeps it out of 68+ territory IMO. If it's from the Joe Blow collection it gets 67 max imo.
@telephoto1 said:
Nice coin. I'm willing to stipulate that CC pieces are notoriously baggy- but that activity on the obverse by UNUM still keeps it out of 68+ territory IMO. If it's from the Joe Blow collection it gets 67 max imo.
That's the second time this week that someone here has impugned the integrity of PCGS by implying that they bump the grades of favored customers.
How about we refrain from libel unless we have evidence?
Evidence:
PCGS had graded this coin twice (once as an MS68 and a second time as an added +).
CAC has judged this coin and deemed it worthy of the grade (top end of quality).
The owner, Jack Lee, determined the coin was worthy of his set of the finest Morgans known.
The above is more substantial evidence than a novice looking at photos of the coin and basing his opinion
on "feelings." He doesn't feel like the coin is better than an MS62 or MS63.
@braddick said:
Evidence:
PCGS had graded this coin twice (once as an MS68 and a second time as an added +).
CAC has judged this coin and deemed it worthy of the grade (top end of quality).
The owner, Jack Lee, determined the coin was worthy of his set of the finest Morgans known.
The above is more substantial evidence than a novice looking at photos of the coin and basing his opinion
on "feelings." He doesn't feel like the coin is better than an MS62 or MS63.
Science will trump feelings any day of the week.
I agree that OP's opinion is an obviously uninformed one. But I disagree with calling a different opinion... an experienced and paid for opinion, but an opinion nonetheless... something tantamount to "science".
@braddick said:
Evidence:
PCGS had graded this coin twice (once as an MS68 and a second time as an added +).
CAC has judged this coin and deemed it worthy of the grade (top end of quality).
The owner, Jack Lee, determined the coin was worthy of his set of the finest Morgans known.
The above is more substantial evidence than a novice looking at photos of the coin and basing his opinion
on "feelings." He doesn't feel like the coin is better than an MS62 or MS63.
Science will trump feelings any day of the week.
I agree that OP's opinion is an obviously uninformed one. But I disagree with calling a different opinion... an experienced and paid for opinion, but an opinion nonetheless... something tantamount to "science".
I think the point was more statistics than science. You have 2 sets of PCGS opinions, 1 set of CAC opinions and Jack Lee. That's 7+ opinions in consensus.
This coin is a classic example why I deplore using numbers for grading. Just call the piece a superb gem and be done with it already. Let the asking price be the only number for a would be buyer to contemplate. It's got "68+ and a bean. Could it really be a "69"? says the grading number analyst to himself.
Who cares? Wouldn't be worth $490K to me even if I had that much money to spend on a coin but that's beside the point.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@braddick said:
Evidence:
PCGS had graded this coin twice (once as an MS68 and a second time as an added +).
CAC has judged this coin and deemed it worthy of the grade (top end of quality).
The owner, Jack Lee, determined the coin was worthy of his set of the finest Morgans known.
The above is more substantial evidence than a novice looking at photos of the coin and basing his opinion
on "feelings." He doesn't feel like the coin is better than an MS62 or MS63.
Science will trump feelings any day of the week.
I agree that OP's opinion is an obviously uninformed one. But I disagree with calling a different opinion... an experienced and paid for opinion, but an opinion nonetheless... something tantamount to "science".
I think the point was more statistics than science. You have 2 sets of PCGS opinions, 1 set of CAC opinions and Jack Lee. That's 7+ opinions in consensus.
There were no actual statistics per se in the quoted response; you even refer to them as opinions yourself... but thanks for incorrecting me.
@braddick said:
Evidence:
PCGS had graded this coin twice (once as an MS68 and a second time as an added +).
CAC has judged this coin and deemed it worthy of the grade (top end of quality).
The owner, Jack Lee, determined the coin was worthy of his set of the finest Morgans known.
The above is more substantial evidence than a novice looking at photos of the coin and basing his opinion
on "feelings." He doesn't feel like the coin is better than an MS62 or MS63.
Science will trump feelings any day of the week.
I agree that OP's opinion is an obviously uninformed one. But I disagree with calling a different opinion... an experienced and paid for opinion, but an opinion nonetheless... something tantamount to "science".
I think the point was more statistics than science. You have 2 sets of PCGS opinions, 1 set of CAC opinions and Jack Lee. That's 7+ opinions in consensus.
There were no actual statistics per se in the quoted response; you even refer to them as opinions yourself... but thanks for incorrecting me.
I didn't "incorrect" you, Mr. Curmudgeon. I simply attempted to amplify the point he was trying to make.
The coin is pretty much ding free BUT the spots and breaks in the toning are significant distractions and I wouldn't grade it a 68 based on what I believe are major distractions.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
opinions differ there is no right nor wrong opinion, if you like then fine, if not ok, but what is a fact is that PCGS said it was that grade and that sealed the coins fate as that grade , yes you all can give opinions till the cows come home but it will not change the grade or the paid opinions of the coin
@edwardjulio said:
Wonder what the OP opines on this 67+ with Gold CAC?
That 1854-O half looks very familiar. Unless I'm mistaken, I bought it out of the Buddy Ebsen sale in 1987, while working for Mark Salzberg, before either of us joined NGC. Assuming it's the same coin, we submitted it to NGC, where it graded MS68 and I believe that it was the first classic type coin they had graded that high at the time.
@edwardjulio said:
Wonder what the OP opines on this 67+ with Gold CAC?
That 1854-O half looks very familiar. Unless I'm mistaken, I bought it out of the Buddy Ebsen sale in 1987, while working for Mark Salzberg, before either of us joined NGC. Assuming it's the same coin, we submitted it to NGC, where it graded MS68 and I believe that it was the first classic type coin they had graded that high at the time.
Sad that there is so much commentary as to plastic , the history of the plastic and what the grade should or should not be and of course stickers... on coin that is well out of the financial reach of the significant majority of collectors. I don't own the coin... I cannot afford the coin... However, I would treat the coin, the prior owner, and the grading process with much more respect than what has been posted within this thread.
It is beyond what is reasonable to have this discussion about a coin at this grade level from solely images and without an in hand review.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I think many folks are trying to apply silver grading to gold. I would wager this coin is way nicer and a stunner in hand. More times than not, if an honest picture is taken of a coin the marks are much worse than in hand.
@coinkat said:
Sad that there is so much commentary as to plastic , the history of the plastic and what the grade should or should not be and of course stickers... on coin that is well out of the financial reach of the significant majority of collectors. I don't own the coin... I cannot afford the coin... However, I would treat the coin, the prior owner, and the grading process with much more respect than what has been posted within this thread.
It is beyond what is reasonable to have this discussion about a coin at this grade level from solely images and without an in hand review.
I agree with you on the “respect” issue. However, if forum members couldn’t have discussions without prior in-hand reviews of coins, this place might resemble a ghost town.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The coin at issue currently is graded a 68+... there is a difference between what is captured in an image and what a coin at that grade level may look like it hand. There is simply no margin for misinterpretation or error
There are many other threads that feature coins at significantly lower grades with excellent images... in most instances, a discussion can be and often is educational even though there may not be an agreement as to the grade
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The coin at issue currently is graded a 68+... there is a difference between what is captured in an image and what a coin at that grade level may look like it hand. There is simply no margin for misinterpretation or error
There are many other threads that feature coins at significantly lower grades with excellent images... in most instances, a discussion can be and often is educational even though there may not be an agreement as to the grade
Do you disagree that (using your words) “there is a difference between what is captured in an image and what a coin at” other grade levels also “may look like in hand”? I think your comment could easily apply to the very large majority of coins of virtually any grade and/or color.
And your remark about educational discussions (despite differences of opinion regrading grade) could just as easily apply to the coin in this thread, as well. If enough opinions are expressed, any coin - no matter how fantastic or terrible - is subject to being unfairly bashed or undeservedly praised.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My comment does apply to a coins of virtually any grade and/or color.
Please take a moment and go to the World Coin Forum and look at the thread asking for opinions on a GB 1872 1d. There is much to be learned about striking characteristics, the look of bronze, surface quality and how one can arrive at a grade. The image is good but still leaves possible doubt as to whether the coin re-toned. To be certain, I would still like to see it in hand to make that determination. However, this coin is at a significantly lower grade but still attractive at a much different level. And the collector that posted the coin claimed they bought it for $12.00.
My point is quite simple... there is significantly less at stake in engaging in a blunt grading discussion of the 1872 1d-and there is a learning curve in having that discussion. And I encourage and try to support that discussion.
The same cannot be said about the 1885-CC PCGS 68+ which has a significant market value predicated on condition rarity. The stakes are higher at several levels. Second guessing or even praising a TPG opinion at this grade level through armchair grading from a computer screen simply fails to pass the straight face test.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Between our host and ats there have been 7 grading events at 68 with one plus. According to them its the finest known. Everyone has an opinion. The OP's opinion was 62-63.Anyone here ever crack out a 63 morgan and have it come back as a 68 ?
What’s odd about this coin is how the toning makes it seem like there’s marks on the coin that aren’t there. Wish there was a video of this coin so we can see it through a different lens.
@jughead1893 said:
Between our host and ats there have been 7 grading events at 68 with one plus. According to them its the finest known. Everyone has an opinion. The OP's opinion was 62-63.
I was really just kidding. I think it should be MS64.
Maybe 64+ — but not 65, it's too ugly to get a gem grade.
hey Conrad, not sure how you think maybe 64+ with all these comments here from known solid minds, many with years of experience, I have no clue how you can even ever assume this example was a 62,62 for laffs, or a 64+ at best. Maybe take more time to learn the nuances and levels of differences.
Welcome to the forum, I see you joined in March
Comments
Thanks for your factual and relevant response.
Slightly better there. Just this one thing...
The reverse of that coin is lovely. Of course, it's a trueview so who knows. Probably should go backwards in the slab because the obverse is, um, not lovely.
Welcome to the forum!
Technically I’m sure it is. I suspect the images aren’t doing this coin any favors. I’ll bet in hand it’s another story. At least that’s all I got😊
wow that is a really nice coin. i would love to see that in hand...i bet it's amazing.
After reading the comments here, I now believe that the coin deserves it's lofty grade.
What convinces me is the lack of bag marks on this coin that are very common on CC Morgans.
Pete
Out of over 3 million Morgan dollars graded by PCGS, there are only 8 finer at MS69, essentially all from 1880-S and 1881-S.
The fact that expert Jack Lee selected this one for his set tells all.
Nice coin. I'm willing to stipulate that CC pieces are notoriously baggy- but that activity on the obverse by UNUM still keeps it out of 68+ territory IMO. If it's from the Joe Blow collection it gets 67 max imo.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
That's the second time this week that someone here has impugned the integrity of PCGS by implying that they bump the grades of favored customers.
How about we refrain from libel unless we have evidence?
Evidence:
PCGS had graded this coin twice (once as an MS68 and a second time as an added +).
CAC has judged this coin and deemed it worthy of the grade (top end of quality).
The owner, Jack Lee, determined the coin was worthy of his set of the finest Morgans known.
The above is more substantial evidence than a novice looking at photos of the coin and basing his opinion
on "feelings." He doesn't feel like the coin is better than an MS62 or MS63.
Science will trump feelings any day of the week.
peacockcoins
I agree that OP's opinion is an obviously uninformed one. But I disagree with calling a different opinion... an experienced and paid for opinion, but an opinion nonetheless... something tantamount to "science".
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I think the point was more statistics than science. You have 2 sets of PCGS opinions, 1 set of CAC opinions and Jack Lee. That's 7+ opinions in consensus.
A valid question however:
Oh my gosh - What is the white stuff on the face and Liberty 85cc Pcgs 68+ Dollar?
Irregardless how highly touted she is by how many frat houses I will have to show her the door….
Seriously?
There is NO "white stuff" on the face. That is simply gaps in the toning.
This coin is a classic example why I deplore using numbers for grading. Just call the piece a superb gem and be done with it already. Let the asking price be the only number for a would be buyer to contemplate. It's got "68+ and a bean. Could it really be a "69"? says the grading number analyst to himself.
Who cares? Wouldn't be worth $490K to me even if I had that much money to spend on a coin but that's beside the point.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
There were no actual statistics per se in the quoted response; you even refer to them as opinions yourself... but thanks for incorrecting me.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I didn't "incorrect" you, Mr. Curmudgeon. I simply attempted to amplify the point he was trying to make.
I didn't "incorrect" you, Mr. Curmudgeon. I simply attempted to amplify the point he was trying to make my post count.
Fixed it for ya.
(And before you get all wounded-that was a joke.)
I understood his point perfectly well but simply disagreed with opinions-even expert opinions- being deemed science.
"Curmudgeon." I like that...
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Lol.
Statistics is a science...
Just curious… what was the original PCGS grade assigned to Jack Lee’s 1885-CC $1?
Just curious… what was the original PCGS grade assigned to Jack Lee’s 1885-CC $1?
You have initiated a GTOG challenge. I guess MS65.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Any 68+ I would try to own would not be allowed to have scratches like this in the viewer's right field.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
The coin is pretty much ding free BUT the spots and breaks in the toning are significant distractions and I wouldn't grade it a 68 based on what I believe are major distractions.
That is a fabulous coin!! Yes ms68 plus plus!! Under the toning wonderfully stuck, few surface marks, etc…
opinions differ there is no right nor wrong opinion, if you like then fine, if not ok, but what is a fact is that PCGS said it was that grade and that sealed the coins fate as that grade , yes you all can give opinions till the cows come home but it will not change the grade or the paid opinions of the coin
2003-present
https://www.omnicoin.com/security/users/login
Knoxville?
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Here's the only auction appearance I found when the coin was in an NGC68 holder:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-half-dollars/1854-o-50c-arrows-ms68-ngc/a/1124-2469.s
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sad that there is so much commentary as to plastic , the history of the plastic and what the grade should or should not be and of course stickers... on coin that is well out of the financial reach of the significant majority of collectors. I don't own the coin... I cannot afford the coin... However, I would treat the coin, the prior owner, and the grading process with much more respect than what has been posted within this thread.
It is beyond what is reasonable to have this discussion about a coin at this grade level from solely images and without an in hand review.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I think many folks are trying to apply silver grading to gold. I would wager this coin is way nicer and a stunner in hand. More times than not, if an honest picture is taken of a coin the marks are much worse than in hand.
I agree with you on the “respect” issue. However, if forum members couldn’t have discussions without prior in-hand reviews of coins, this place might resemble a ghost town.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The strike appears less than the known 69's too. Hard to tell that in a photo though.
Transactions by photo alone are only increasing.
IMO a discussion about lofty grades and specific coins is interesting and informative.
@MFeld
I think we can just agree to disagree.
The coin at issue currently is graded a 68+... there is a difference between what is captured in an image and what a coin at that grade level may look like it hand. There is simply no margin for misinterpretation or error
There are many other threads that feature coins at significantly lower grades with excellent images... in most instances, a discussion can be and often is educational even though there may not be an agreement as to the grade
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Do you disagree that (using your words) “there is a difference between what is captured in an image and what a coin at” other grade levels also “may look like in hand”? I think your comment could easily apply to the very large majority of coins of virtually any grade and/or color.
And your remark about educational discussions (despite differences of opinion regrading grade) could just as easily apply to the coin in this thread, as well. If enough opinions are expressed, any coin - no matter how fantastic or terrible - is subject to being unfairly bashed or undeservedly praised.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My comment does apply to a coins of virtually any grade and/or color.
Please take a moment and go to the World Coin Forum and look at the thread asking for opinions on a GB 1872 1d. There is much to be learned about striking characteristics, the look of bronze, surface quality and how one can arrive at a grade. The image is good but still leaves possible doubt as to whether the coin re-toned. To be certain, I would still like to see it in hand to make that determination. However, this coin is at a significantly lower grade but still attractive at a much different level. And the collector that posted the coin claimed they bought it for $12.00.
My point is quite simple... there is significantly less at stake in engaging in a blunt grading discussion of the 1872 1d-and there is a learning curve in having that discussion. And I encourage and try to support that discussion.
The same cannot be said about the 1885-CC PCGS 68+ which has a significant market value predicated on condition rarity. The stakes are higher at several levels. Second guessing or even praising a TPG opinion at this grade level through armchair grading from a computer screen simply fails to pass the straight face test.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Between our host and ats there have been 7 grading events at 68 with one plus. According to them its the finest known. Everyone has an opinion. The OP's opinion was 62-63.Anyone here ever crack out a 63 morgan and have it come back as a 68 ?
What’s odd about this coin is how the toning makes it seem like there’s marks on the coin that aren’t there. Wish there was a video of this coin so we can see it through a different lens.
Coin maybe technically accurately graded but very unappealing in terms of eye appeal. Would never want it in my collection.
I was really just kidding. I think it should be MS64.
Maybe 64+ — but not 65, it's too ugly to get a gem grade.
hey Conrad, not sure how you think maybe 64+ with all these comments here from known solid minds, many with years of experience, I have no clue how you can even ever assume this example was a 62,62 for laffs, or a 64+ at best. Maybe take more time to learn the nuances and levels of differences.
Welcome to the forum, I see you joined in March
So the toning is actually disguising the details of Liberty's hair?
Why do I see it as rub?
I like where they put the CAC sticker.