Define A Scratch

lilolme

So how would you define a scratch?
(And for the purpose here a scratch results in the coin being details, damaged or similarly graded.)
Possibly to be used as a guideline.

Additional thoughts:
Does a scratch need some minimum depth? If it just touches the surface, similar to a frost break, then is that a scratch?
Does a scratch need some minimum length? If it is very short is it just a small contact mark or even a tick?
Does a scratch need some minimum width? If very thin, then is it a hairline? The things some proof grading is made of.
Does a scratch need some maximum width? If it is wide enough, then does it become a scuff, scrape or similar?

Appears there may be other items to consider.

Possible example but not necessarily: If you were writing a review of a coin series of interest and wanted to include a grading section, in that section what would you write or how would you define a scratch?

jonathanb

I would say that a scratch has to move metal, so I would not consider your first example of a frost break to be a scratch.

If you want to get into English language semantics, I think I'd also say that a scratch needs some sort of "from here to there" direction. That means I would not consider a dent or any other sort of single-impact event to be a scratch. Many small contact marks are made by impacts so I would not consider those to be scratches.

A hairline is a very thin/shallow scratch.

A gouge is a very thick/wide scratch.

Graffiti is a collection of scratches that form recognizable letters or pictures.

I would grade coins based on their overall presentation. I would not get into semantics of what is or isn't a scratch versus any of your other terms.

emeraldATV

A scratch could be determined or swayed if the overall patina of the coin are in the same value.
So that's that easy.
This photo shows both. That's my thought process.

ifthevamzarockin

Another

From

emeraldATV

Ya, Ya,...It's only logic. Copy and past that to the music thread, their jamming.
I like mine wit out, cheese wiz.

ricko

@lilolme... Your question is valid, and shows the issue with coin grading at this time. There are no documented, measurable, repeatable standards. I spent a career in industries that required such standards, and have discussed this issue here many times over the years. For now, a scratch that impairs the surface of the coin (visible) is a scratch.... the magnitude is not defined, though terminology varies from 'hairlines' to 'gouge', and includes damage or graffiti. Cheers, RickO

gumby1234

@jonathanb Agree except that graffiti doesn't have to resemble anything. It just has to be intentional.

lilolme

@jonathanb @gumby1234
Maybe I could agree or disagree with all those items being scratches.
However, as stated in the OP:
for the purpose here a scratch results in the coin being details, damaged or similarly graded

So in this case I do not agree that all those items are scratches and details graded.

@ricko
This was actually my intent on overall grading. However, I do not know how to define a scratch definitively. As jonathanb noted moved metal, a thin line with depth and different sizes for small to large coins. But this does not define a scratch it only give an idea, a generalization.

The scratch would be one of the easier items to define. If opened up to all types of contact marks (cuts, reed, frost breaks, hairlines, scuffs/scrapes, ticks, miscellaneous shapes...), then it would seem impossible to come even remotely close to define them all positively and make it useable. So I believe the generalize definitions of grade are here to stay.

I just thought I would see if even a details scratch could be defined. Onward we go.

TurtleCat

Like with many things with coins, there is a gray area between what a professional grader considers straight gradable and not. Anything in that gray area will be likely to bounce between straight and details. I’m sure the graders would likely say that they know it when they see it.

It’s one reason why a real “grade” would be a long paragraph (in some cases) describing the positive and negative of a coin’s condition. It certainly wouldn’t be a single number and maybe a one or two word note.

emeraldATV

When I notice anything anywhere...even a flea doing the backstroke in my ink well.
45 years of quality production in the offset printing industry (Pressman) it was my job to follow the signed off proof
(Press Check Sample) at any cost. ( $ )
Now I find myself with the same type of responsibility although without a cost or time restriction.
If I see a scratch in all cases, I look for indicators to explain its self .
It's like saying squirrel to a dog.
One indicator a lot of times are stray letters, or numerals.
This may create a scratched surface . Cause ? A bad sensor in the delivery throwing off the feeder fingers. Who cares fix it.
Excuses are like..........Everyone has one.
Bottom line...Every case is different and should be treated that way.
And I approve this message.