Has anyone experienced this type of behavior?
Ppp
Posts: 517 ✭✭✭✭
I am old school when a deal is agreed too and confirmed I consider the transaction to be completed even thou the physical exchange may not happen for a few days. Lately, I have been experiencing a disturbing trend.
One example, someone accepted my offer for a raw 1893 Morgan. He thought it could be ms whereas I had my doubts from pictures (I thought au and wasn’t sure if it was cleaned) and I hoped it would straight grade. I explained if he wanted to get more then he should get it graded. Finally we were scheduled to meet to make the transaction and he decided not to. Normally I just write these people off and never do busy with them again.
Fast forward to now he got the coin straight graded by pcgs as au. I went against my better judgement and said because of the previous communication I would buy it for about 20% less than his new price but about 15% higher than our previous raw price. He accepted my offer then soon after he said no his new price is firm and then he increased his posted price by 50%.
Another recent example: I accepted someone posted price for American silver eagles and asked when could we meet to concluded the transactions. A day later they increased their price by about 15%. Of course I said that’s not right and I don’t want them anymore.
These are just two examples of what I have been seeing as people not living up to their agreements. It seems these types of examples are happening much more frequently than in the past.
Is anyone else experiencing an increase in this type of behavior?
Comments
I had an example of this with a major auction house. I watched the auction on-line and saw a lot I had bid upon sell for X, a 5 figure sum. I stayed on line for next 50 lots to make sure the lot was not re-opened. It wasn’t. For once it seemed like a good price for a change. The day after, there was a post on these boards that commented about the results of the auction that mentioned that result.
A short time later, the auction house told me that they had missed a mail in bid and that the price was higher. I was displeased to say the least. When the auction hammer falls, that’s the result, right? I got them down to a cut bid increase and bought the lot, but that was an expensive move for that auction house. My purchases from them are now quite limited because of that experience. In the past, I had spent a great deal of money with them.
In my experience with auction houses of various kinds over the past 48 years I have frequently experienced questionable practices. If you read the terms of sale, which often go on for many pages in small type, you will find they can essentially do anything they want to.
who is the auction House?
I would like to read the small print.
I bought a Type 2 gold dollar on eBay with the 1854 date heavily doubled for a good price and I paid for it immediately. The dealer e-mailed me that he "couldn't find it" and immediately refunded my money. I gave him a negative feedback which is very rare for me and ruined his 100% positive feedback.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No, face to face offers I have made at shows they either took it, perhaps a halfway point negotiated or moved on. I don’t try to argue about grade, price. I already have them in my sight ready to pull the trigger. I may meet them half way (amount we are apart) for example. That the guy changed his mind that can happen if deal lingers (bad). The key thing is leave yourself some room for negotiation. I don’t take less than cost plus x. One big buyer he was always making 30 pct less counter offer. Idk if he even knew how to price material. But knowing that it’s like a QB reading the defense. Sold him $600 worth world currency fairly priced of course but made enough on it clear table fee first play out the gate.
IMO It is the responsibility of the buyer to pay for the item at time of sale in cash.
That they don’t have payment or their indecisive is not the dealers problem. I do keep my word on the price if the guy comes back. At shows If you hold anything they may never come back. Time is money at a show, competition is brutal. Dealers are there to get cash money. That’s unfortunate the dealer sold the coin before you returned to his table but it’s unfair to blame him. Must have been a really hot item, deal. Perhaps he needed the money to eat or pay a bill. He’s supposed to turn away a sale and wait on you? Not necessarily in my view. It’s your responsibility to have adequate show cash. At shows cash is king if they don’t have it their dead in the water. Many times 2 or 3 big spenders more than make a dealers table fee / show. The rest of it does not add up to diddly.
Coin prices are a point in time especially bullion. Prices are subject to change due to market conditions / business reasons. What a seller was going to give away today can change by tomorrow. Maybe he just had a big sale. Have cash, be decisive, and close the deal. Today is like field position in a FB game tomorrow it may not be so good.
eBay: It happens very rarely. People make mistakes, item sells say at a show then not removed from eBay inventory, etc. I would not neg somebody on ebay bc of this. Being very experienced in the biz I don’t sweat the small stuff. I have had numerous items many non coin where seller refunded “item no longer in stock” but again this seldom happens. Nobody’s perfect nor am I a mind reader. These days it’s nuclear bidders that ruin a good buy opportunity for me.
However buyers can get angry (hacked they did not get their pick off) in not getting the bargain they were expecting and post a neg. Consequently good inventory mgt is critical. Be sure remove items from bay that sold at a show. I don’t list anything below what would be my barebones lowest price whether bin or auction. You never know how low an auc may realize. I have had bay items less than $20 MV started at 99c plus shipping that did terrible. I just take it on the chin and shipped it. A $500 CPG MV item for example I would never list below 70-100 pct MV.
Let’s say your starting a $29 MV circ Barber half at auction. I would list it at BV plus shipping.
A deal should be a deal unless the seller has made an obvious mistake. If I’m able to buy a $2000 coin for $200 but the seller realizes he made a mistake with his price I would not have a problem if the seller canceled the sale. I’ve never had anything like my above example happen to me.
That is unfortunate. A deal is a deal and backing out is a negative reflection on the seller.
At an ANA show I just had negotiated a deal with a dealer at his table that he accepted. As I was reaching for my money a very well known high end dealer who was listening offered him slightly more and the dealer sold it to him instead.
Later that dealer who got the coin offered it to me at more. Both dishonest.
, can't trust their word beware. I walked away. You can guess what I muttered under my breath.
Years ago before I was a dealer I got 2 dealers kicked out of a major show for doing that!
Wow thanks did not know you could do that. Without integety and trust the dealers will sink.
IDK... I was at a fairly large show looking for a nice Seated Liberty Dollar for the type set and came across a really nice XF graded piece. The price on the slab seemed fair, so I said I'll take it... only to be told the piece had already been sold. Technically, no money changed hands, but I still walked away disappointed...
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I doubt you can, this was back in the early 90's. I was pissed and told the show promotor. All I know is they packed up and left an hour or two later and this was on the 1st day of the show. I assumed they were booted, but who knows for sure.
If you aggravate your customers, you soon won't have any customers. Just my thoughts
Very poor practice/integrity to interfere in a transaction that is taking place.... whether one is a customer.... or a dealer. It would be awhile before I stopped at either table again... .... integrity counts. (at least in my opinion).
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not that you need my approval but for such a quick refund, the negative was probably earned. i've misplaced things and/or accidentally double sold things over the years but usually took me a day or two to untangle it. i think it would be pretty rare to know so quickly unless the seller found it had already sold in the sold history (how i untangled some in the past) and that could be checked easily by both parties since they can see their sold history and we can see it from the search feature.
unfortunate to hear you missed out on a neat gold dollar.
It is a behavior that is being taught to younger adults/kids, they are learning that there is no repercussion to not keeping your word by watching adults around them not keep theirs. an example; a couple of years ago the grade school teachers here went on strike in the middle of the semester. It did not matter one bit that those teachers/unions had signed their contracts before that school semester started in which they agreed to the pay structure, benefits, and number of days to work in that contract. What those teachers taught the school kids was that their word/contract had no meaning and it was/is perfectly ok to strike and renege on their word.
This scenario has been played out over and over again so many times now in multiple industries that most people, imo especially the young adults, have no solid concept of what it means to give and keep your word.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Even the slightest hint of such shenanigans and I am gone.... I hate that type of stuff. A deal is a deal. Have not encountered it on ebay.... Though I do not deal much there. Cheers, RickO
There are a half-dozen dealers I won't do business with for various reasons. I might make an exception for a couple of them if they had the right coin, but the others -- nope. Life is too short for drama. "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice....."
Disappointments happen. Imagine searching for years for a certain coin, paying the money, and then finding out a year later that it was stolen property. Even if you get your money back it can make you nuts. Good thing coins are just luxury items, in reality.
Years ago, I was at a show and saw an item that I agreed to purchase. The dealer wanted cash. He gave me an hour to get it and come back. I was back, with the cash in less than an hour. He had already sold the item. I have not stopped at his table or spoken to him since and that has been over 40 years ago.
When the auction hammer falls, that’s the result, right? I got them down to a cut bid increase and bought the lot, but that was an expensive move for that auction house. My purchases from them are now quite limited because of that experience. In the past, I had spent a great deal of money with them.
I do not know much about auction laws, but as far as I know when the hammer falls and/or the auctioneer says "Sold", that is it, the auction for that item is over with no recourse. The sale has been made and the winning bidder must pay the winning bid amount along with any fees, taxes and other costs.
Most bidders know this. I have been to many coin auctions over the past 50 years and this was always the case. Yes there have been some times when people would cause a stink for some reason or another, but the hammer price always held with no exception, as most auctioneers prized their reputation.
Internet auction sometimes have different problems. Same way, If you leave a down payment on a coin at a coin show, but the dealer leaves the coin in his showcase and someone comes along and offers more. Once you make a down payment the coin is yours unless you don't pay the balance in an agreed to period of time.
I am trying to reduce my inventory and my primary channel is using an antique mall because I find it easier, less expensive, and they are open 50 hours per week. Also, it is easy for me to meet people there and run transactions through the mall.
Just wanted to share another very recent example that I view as unbelievable. Someone who I had some dealings with in the past agreed to a deal for some non-numismatic silver. A few days later we met and silver spot was lower. I couldn’t believe he said, not once but a couple of times, as he examined the coins “how much, well I guess I will take them”. Internally I was saying “what did you say” but externally I kept my cool.
Now granted I might be getting a little sensitive in today’s environment which prompted me to start this post and it just might have been normal talk from him (even thou I viewed it as out of character) but it came across that he could either change the terms or back out.
Thank you everyone for your comments and examples.
🙂
Name and shame or things will never change.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
The usual rules and standards of the law with regard to contracts should apply with auctions and transactions. Even if they write their own rules into the contract they still have to follow that.
I named them years ago when this happened. I don't need a lawsuit even though I'm telling the truth. And no, things will not change. Collectors from my father's generation warned me about them years ago.
You will see this more and more. The definition of what it takes to be a "dealer" is changing. It used to almost exclusively mean that you had a brick-and-mortar shop. Now that obviously isn't the case. I enjoy seeing the new blood come to the hobby but sometimes they haven't learned the rules yet.
www.brunkauctions.com
Last year I purchased a beautiful proof Merc Dime from a dealer website, they had it listed on both eBay and their site so I used their site to buy it. Well the next day I get an email saying that the coin was already sold and that I shouldn't have even been able to buy it on the site. Keep in mind it was still listed on eBay when I purchased. The only explanation I can think of is that someone bought it on ebay overnight, they wanted to avoid a neg so sold it to them instead. I was disappointed but what can you do? I just said OK no problem, I should have acted faster. I didn't press the issue since there was no point.
I held onto the pictures, if I remember correctly is was a PR66, has the look of a 67 though
Collector, occasional seller
i never take words spoken or written seriously until i have proof that the person is serious about what they say
2003-present
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I had that happen on a nice cherrypick. Then the seller couldn't find the coin, though they were very apologetic for the screwup. With a cherrypick, though, it makes one wonder if the seller took another look at the coin, recognized what he had, and pulled it.
The same thing happened to me. I watched the auction and I won the lot and I watched it close and move on to the next lot. The next day I called them to pay them for it and they said I didn't win it! I told them I watched it close and I was the winning bidder, they said that there was another bid after mine, I said NO WAY, I watched it close! Well, guess what, they said O WELL.......
It would be really interesteing if it's the same auction house.
Oh, and BTW it was a great price that I though I got it for.............They probably saw that and and decied not to sell it at that price and made up that there was another bid.
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
In transactions with people you don't know, this is common. I have worked with a dozen posters here on this site buying and selling coins over many years (some have passed, like Mike Hayes), where you could strike a deal, and send the coin before their check arrived, or they for you.
You could do it because you knew the person you were dealing with was pure gold and had honesty and integrity. That truly is my favorite part about this hobby.
At least in auctions, these sorts of things cannot happen in states that have strong auctioneering laws, such as the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Auction licenses can be pulled for shenanigans. Pennsylvania laws held for the 2018 World’s Fair of Money sale in Philadelphia. It remains to be seen if there will be an on-site auction at Pittsburgh 2023.
My integrity is the most important thing I have. My word is my bond, and anyone who demonstrates otherwise is someone I won't do business with in the future. Recently I put my integrity on the line based on another person's integrity. He said "nothing is ever final in a pandemic" as he backed out. I was able to make it right with the people who were counting on me, but I'm never going to speak to this guy again.
Check his feedback for your negative,,,,,, there is a good chance that it has been removed by eBay.
I never checked because I wanted to put this whole sordid mess behind me and move forward but you are probably right.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Well, not everyone is unethical - A couple years ago I listed a 34-P Peace Dollar in 58+ for $150 BIN and it got snapped up within an hour. I got several offers for much more after that, one person even imploring me to cancel the sale and sell it to him. I did the right thing and followed through on the $150 sale, and made sure I got market value for 58+ coins since then!