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Why did Whitman think there were SIX 1913 Liberty Nickels at some point?

ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭✭

Per this vintage Whitman folder -- was there a 6th Liberty Nickel rumored to exist at the time? (likely 1950s or 60s)

Comments

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    BAD COUNTERS.

    Someone had six fingers on his/her right hand

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    since they called one of the authentic ones a counterfeit and was reported to have sat in a shoe box for many years, i'm sure over the decades, the number estimated to be known has fluctuated a bit. the reported mintages, mint meltings, market meltings etc has shown how difficult it can be to verify actual numbers sometimes.

    we're talking about groups of people so concerned with a few shavings that they essentially destroy the coins but yet go through the effort/expense to make dies that only make/keep a few coins? however difficult it was for the mints over the centuries to be consistent in efforts/record keeping would only make it that much more so for the rest of us, even the most studied of numismatists. i'd LOVE to see someone post al album like that to this thread with 4 only. look at all the midnight specials made, stuff the government has deemed illegal (very inconsistent).

    the people of the past did WONDERFULLY with their efforts given lack of technology to study and communicate in a reasonable time frame, i mean for crying out loud, they used to DRAW the diagnostics. WOW

    as far as i'm concerned, just because there are technicalyl only 5 known, doesn't mean that only 5 exist. EVERY year in my numismatic experience, some old info is proven/discounted, new marriages, amazing forgeries, etc etc continue to happen, without exception.

    not sure that is what you are aiming at but that is what i can contribute for my part. ;)

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2022 7:18PM

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
  • CoinHoarderCoinHoarder Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not sure. But it seems to me that I read somewhere years ago, that the sixth coin that accompanied the five 1913 Liberty Nickels, was a 1913 Buffalo Nickel.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,410 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2022 9:33AM

    Deleted - duplicate post.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mark, why did you edit/delete your post - was it a gift from uncle Max? :o

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,410 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    It's actually quite simple.> @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    since they called one of the authentic ones a counterfeit and was reported to have sat in a shoe box for many years, i'm sure over the decades, the number estimated to be known has fluctuated a bit. the reported mintages, mint meltings, market meltings etc has shown how difficult it can be to verify actual numbers sometimes.

    we're talking about groups of people so concerned with a few shavings that they essentially destroy the coins but yet go through the effort/expense to make dies that only make/keep a few coins? however difficult it was for the mints over the centuries to be consistent in efforts/record keeping would only make it that much more so for the rest of us, even the most studied of numismatists. i'd LOVE to see someone post al album like that to this thread with 4 only. look at all the midnight specials made, stuff the government has deemed illegal (very inconsistent).

    the people of the past did WONDERFULLY with their efforts given lack of technology to study and communicate in a reasonable time frame, i mean for crying out loud, they used to DRAW the diagnostics. WOW

    as far as i'm concerned, just because there are technicalyl only 5 known, doesn't mean that only 5 exist. EVERY year in my numismatic experience, some old info is proven/discounted, new marriages, amazing forgeries, etc etc continue to happen, without exception.

    not sure that is what you are aiming at but that is what i can contribute for my part. ;)

    Actually, the real reason is fairly mundane. At one time, the 5 were housed in a 6 coin holder that led to speculation that there were originally six.

    https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/1913-liberty-nickel-768780#:~:text=The 1913 Liberty Head Nickel is one of,for which it sold in May of 2007.

    The only holder I know of in which the five 1913 Liberty nickels were housed, had 8 slots, not 6. I owned it (but unfortunately, not the nickels) at one time. See link below.

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/miscellaneous/-c-1920-leather-coin-holder-for-the-original-1913-liberty-nickels/a/1260-15073.s?ic2=mybidspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyBids-101116

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2022 9:44AM

    @MFeld said:
    The only holder I know of in which the five 1913 Liberty nickels were housed, had 8 slots, not 6. I owned it (but unfortunately, not the nickels) at one time. See link below.

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/miscellaneous/-c-1920-leather-coin-holder-for-the-original-1913-liberty-nickels/a/1260-15073.s?ic2=mybidspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyBids-101116

    .
    nice.

    i really don't recall seeing that one posted before thought, i'm sure someone probably has.
    .
    .
    .
    "Unique and Historic Coin Holder
    Housed the Five Original 1913 Liberty Head Nickels
    (c. 1920) Leather Coin Holder for the Original 1913 Liberty Nickels. For the better part of three decades after their mysterious striking, the five famous, original 1913 Liberty Head nickels traded hands as a set through a chain of ownership that is nearly as intriguing as the nickels themselves. During most of that time, they were housed in this fine leather eight-coin holder, purchased intact from the "Col." E.H.R. Green estate - the legendary nickels in place - by the partnership of Eric P. Newman and B.G. Johnson.

    Five of the openings were occupied by the original 1913 Liberty nickels, leaving places for three additional nickels. One was a pattern Type One style Buffalo nickel proof described by Eric P. Newman as from the "regular type," but with broader rims and shorter feathers on the headdress, probably unique. Another Buffalo nickel was an Uncirculated Type Two of regular mintage. The third Buffalo nickel was also a Type Two piece, described as "in copper, Unc., probably unique."

    This historic and splendid leather case offered now (without any of the nickels) is inextricably linked to the most celebrated coins of all numismatic lore, carefully preserved and virtually as it was when acquired in 1942. It is made from soft leather over hard paperboard stiffeners, with flaps lined with fine quality satiny fabric, all in black. The case shows only minimal wear on the snap closure and no signs of damage other than a bit of faint edge wear. This authentic case is housed in an NGC archival plastic sleeve.

    Ex: Possibly Samuel Brown, before 1919; more likely August Wagner or Stephen K. Nagy, circa 1924; Wayte Raymond, circa 1924; "Colonel" E.H.R. Green; Green Estate; Partnership of Eric P. Newman/B.G. Johnson d.b.a. St. Louis Stamp and Coin Co.; Eric P. Newman; Eric P. Newman Numismatic Education Society."
    .
    .
    .
    WHOA. a pic of those 8 coins would be LEGENDARY let alone pictured in the holder!
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2022 9:53AM

    I find the article linked by jmlanzaf to be a good reminder of my first ANA Show.

    I remember being in the outer hall prior to the show opening. While I was registering to go in they made the announcement that all five 1913 Liberty Nickels would be displayed at the show. There were maybe several hundred people waiting to go in and the "Ooooh!!" that everyone let out was pretty cool and exciting.

  • jomjom Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've read that story about the 8 slots and I've always wondered what happened to that "unique" Type Two Buffalo nickel.... ????

    jom

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As I read the above post about the 8 nickels, my thoughts then and now are "What became of the copper Buffalo nickel?".... Seems that should be out there somewhere... Cheers, RickO

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    after doing a basic engine search thinking the coin could be some rare pattern, this made me think perhaps it was just a metal mixture error or struck on wrong planchet.

    "Nickels are minted from an alloy of 75% copper and 25% nickel, weigh 5 grams and have a diameter of 21.2 mm. The 25% nickel is enough to give this coin its silvery color. There are nickels that were minted in error on copper cent flans by mistake and these are popular with collectors."

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,099 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    It's actually quite simple.> @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    since they called one of the authentic ones a counterfeit and was reported to have sat in a shoe box for many years, i'm sure over the decades, the number estimated to be known has fluctuated a bit. the reported mintages, mint meltings, market meltings etc has shown how difficult it can be to verify actual numbers sometimes.

    we're talking about groups of people so concerned with a few shavings that they essentially destroy the coins but yet go through the effort/expense to make dies that only make/keep a few coins? however difficult it was for the mints over the centuries to be consistent in efforts/record keeping would only make it that much more so for the rest of us, even the most studied of numismatists. i'd LOVE to see someone post al album like that to this thread with 4 only. look at all the midnight specials made, stuff the government has deemed illegal (very inconsistent).

    the people of the past did WONDERFULLY with their efforts given lack of technology to study and communicate in a reasonable time frame, i mean for crying out loud, they used to DRAW the diagnostics. WOW

    as far as i'm concerned, just because there are technicalyl only 5 known, doesn't mean that only 5 exist. EVERY year in my numismatic experience, some old info is proven/discounted, new marriages, amazing forgeries, etc etc continue to happen, without exception.

    not sure that is what you are aiming at but that is what i can contribute for my part. ;)

    Actually, the real reason is fairly mundane. At one time, the 5 were housed in a 6 coin holder that led to speculation that there were originally six.

    https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/1913-liberty-nickel-768780#:~:text=The 1913 Liberty Head Nickel is one of,for which it sold in May of 2007.

    The only holder I know of in which the five 1913 Liberty nickels were housed, had 8 slots, not 6. I owned it (but unfortunately, not the nickels) at one time. See link below.

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/miscellaneous/-c-1920-leather-coin-holder-for-the-original-1913-liberty-nickels/a/1260-15073.s?ic2=mybidspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyBids-101116

    This wasn't a custom-made holder, was it? I always assumed it was some sort of high end but commercially available holder that happened to have 8 holes in it.

    Collectors being the obsessive sorts that we are, if somebody put the 5 1913 Liberty nickels and one pattern Buffalo nickel in it, they would have had to put SOMETHING in the other two holes.

    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,410 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2022 8:27AM

    @CaptHenway said:

    @MFeld said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    It's actually quite simple.> @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    since they called one of the authentic ones a counterfeit and was reported to have sat in a shoe box for many years, i'm sure over the decades, the number estimated to be known has fluctuated a bit. the reported mintages, mint meltings, market meltings etc has shown how difficult it can be to verify actual numbers sometimes.

    we're talking about groups of people so concerned with a few shavings that they essentially destroy the coins but yet go through the effort/expense to make dies that only make/keep a few coins? however difficult it was for the mints over the centuries to be consistent in efforts/record keeping would only make it that much more so for the rest of us, even the most studied of numismatists. i'd LOVE to see someone post al album like that to this thread with 4 only. look at all the midnight specials made, stuff the government has deemed illegal (very inconsistent).

    the people of the past did WONDERFULLY with their efforts given lack of technology to study and communicate in a reasonable time frame, i mean for crying out loud, they used to DRAW the diagnostics. WOW

    as far as i'm concerned, just because there are technicalyl only 5 known, doesn't mean that only 5 exist. EVERY year in my numismatic experience, some old info is proven/discounted, new marriages, amazing forgeries, etc etc continue to happen, without exception.

    not sure that is what you are aiming at but that is what i can contribute for my part. ;)

    Actually, the real reason is fairly mundane. At one time, the 5 were housed in a 6 coin holder that led to speculation that there were originally six.

    https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/1913-liberty-nickel-768780#:~:text=The 1913 Liberty Head Nickel is one of,for which it sold in May of 2007.

    The only holder I know of in which the five 1913 Liberty nickels were housed, had 8 slots, not 6. I owned it (but unfortunately, not the nickels) at one time. See link below.

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/miscellaneous/-c-1920-leather-coin-holder-for-the-original-1913-liberty-nickels/a/1260-15073.s?ic2=mybidspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyBids-101116

    This wasn't a custom-made holder, was it? I always assumed it was some sort of high end but commercially available holder that happened to have 8 holes in it.

    Collectors being the obsessive sorts that we are, if somebody put the 5 1913 Liberty nickels and one pattern Buffalo nickel in it, they would have had to put SOMETHING in the other two holes.

    TD

    Sorry, I don't know.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Short book or long article on this at NNP

    A Forgotten Nickel...and its companions
    Reichenberger, Jeff (2011)

    https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/511785

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
    .
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lilolme said:
    Short book or long article on this at NNP

    A Forgotten Nickel...and its companions
    Reichenberger, Jeff (2011)

    https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/511785

    And there you have it, document describing all 8 nickels in the leather pouch. $100 for the copper pattern was quite the bargian! Also, I wonder why one of the 5 1913 LibNicks designated as "Unc" while the other 4 were "Proof".

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