1909-S Indian Head Cent - Genuine?
ducmir
Posts: 18 ✭✭
Hello all, this is my first post.
I've been collecting indian head cents for about 6 months now. I recently purchased a coin book containing what appeared to be a genuine, although very heavily cleaned, 1909-S. Now that I've received the coin, after close inspection I have my doubts about it's authencity. It has what appears to be some environmental damage (probably from the cleaning), which makes the details of the coin a bit difficult to decipher. Here are the notes I've gathered so far:
- A genuine coin should have lack of details in the first three feathers of the head dress, especially feather 1, which matches this coin.
- The 1909 date, appears to be clean
- A genuine "S" mint mark, has a distinct shape and size, and generally position. On my coin, the "S" mint mark seems to be larger, and not quite in the right position? Also, it shows clear doubling, or 'tippeling' even, under magnification. None of the 1909S mint marks I've seen have that, but maybe it happens? The metal of the mark does seem to blend well with the background, but the mark itself is not nearly as streamlined as most of the images I've found for comparison online.
- I've read that counterfeits lack luster. Both obverse and reverse of this coin are quite shiny. I believe this is entirely due to the alteration (cleaning) that was done to the coin, but I could be wrong.
Here is a link to some images I took of the coin:
- 16 images obverse and reverse, with mint mark close up
- Obverse example
- Reverse example
- "S" Mint Mark
Any feedback is greatly appreciated! Thanks!
0
Comments
and generally position.
.
not generally. either it matches one of the 2 known positions or it is an added mint mark or counterfeit. one thing i love about attribution/authentication, there is usually not really any room for negotiation. either it matches or it does not. i think the vam folks call it TDITD (the die is the die). that said, shape/size/style of course are important.
this should give us confidence. it narrows down the possibilities.
i have an image showing the mint mark positions corresponding to the dentil. if i can find it, i'll share it.
one good, centered, high-quality image is worth more than 20 mediocre images. fwiw
my opinion, this item is counterfeit.
Whole coins fake.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Welcome to the forum!
Looks like you have a fake.
It looks like a cast counterfeit. Counterfeits of that coin have been around for a very long time.
fake coin
Here's a genuine one in MS-64, R&B.
Wow everyone, thank you so much for the fast response and identification!
This was an eBay auction, and the seller is trying to give me excuses on why he won't give a refund. Has anyone been in this kind of situation with an eBay purchase before, and any advice? I understand if that's outside the scope of this forum.
Contact eBay directly and ask them for the proper procedure to follow.
Go to return, select doesn't seem authentic, and detail why it's not authentic, and upload pics. The mintmark isn't even close to right, for example. compare it with a genuine example and note the differences in your message to the seller. Can also talk about how all the finer details are mushy, how the denticles barely exist, etc. It's not a very good fake, there's a lot of things you can point out.
As long as your logic is legible and the pics are decent, your return should be granted by ebay, even if the seller tries to say no.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Cut and dry, go to the link to return the item, not sure of the sequence, Item not as described/not genuine or counterfeit. Ebay will cover your but! I would doubt you need to include pictures or anything else!
Looks like one of the typical counterfeits that are coming out of China these days.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The mint mark is too large and positioned wrong, and the entire coin lacks sharpness.
You came to the right place! Welcome.
Yep, looks like a cast counterfeit to me too...
Good luck on the Return, and welcome to the Forum.
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Actually, it's the dies that are cast so they can install them into a minting press and then go into high speed production.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Tough lesson learned. Thank you to everyone, you've all helped tremendously! I wish there was a consolidated reference of documented examples of counterfeit coins on the internet.
If anyone's interested, here are the images I plan to submit to eBay to validate the return, based on comments generously provided in this post and some further research. Comments welcome, if I missed anything or got anything wrong.
And this.
@ducmir.... Welcome aboard. Your pictures/information supporting your claim look very good. Let us know how it goes. Cheers, RickO
Top notch work, but overkill for eBay. I doubt their reps even read the cases half the time before hitting the "accept return" button or whatever. Send it anyway. Should be open and shut esp with that work though, and really details what we discussed about PUP's for it being fake here.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
When I do something like this, I do tend to get very detail oriented. It got the sellers attention anyway, they accepted the return right away. I suppose the prospect of the penalty for knowingly peddling counterfeit currency hit home.
I hope this is the first of many posts. As frustrating as the experience was with this purchase, I did really enjoy the discussion. Thanks again everyone!
In the future you would be wise to just stick to coins coins slabbed by a major TPG when buying key date coins. There are just too many fakes out there.
Duly noted @291fifth. I haven't purchased any slabbed key dates yet, but I'm sure I will eventually. And in the meantime, I hope to submit some for grading someday, to add to that supply.
Like I mentioned, I've only been coin collecting for about six months. I'm still in my 'know it all' wonder years as a collector, on a budget, eager to learn, and find a few hidden gems along the way. Wisdom gained from an experience like the one in this post, is a lot deeper rooted than just reading about counterfeit's in a book. And @DelawareDoons, as overkill as my images may be, creating them helped give me a more detailed perspective on the topic. I tried to make them as much instructional as they are evidence, knowing I would be sharing them here. If they help others who find this thread down the road, I consider it time well spent.