@PerryHall said:
Is it possible that someone took a real PCGS slabbed 1916-D dime, cracked out the dime, and then reused the original insert with a different shell, and then sealed a counterfeit coin in that slab. I've read here about unsealed slab shells occasionally getting out of PCGS and also being available from Chinese sellers. I'm not saying this is what happened here but is it possible?
YES VERY POSSIBLE. Infact several 16-d mid grade and upper circ grade have been switched by a Bay Area operator. Operator buys legit 16-d and either reincapsulates with counterfeit or lower grade legit coin, uses same cert and new plastic. 16-d's climb the value ladder very quickly.
When I inspect a highly counterfeited coin, if the seller won't give me ample time to look up diagnostics, bon voyage.
@PerryHall said:
Is it possible that someone took a real PCGS slabbed 1916-D dime, cracked out the dime, and then reused the original insert with a different shell, and then sealed a counterfeit coin in that slab. I've read here about unsealed slab shells occasionally getting out of PCGS and also being available from Chinese sellers. I'm not saying this is what happened here but is it possible?
definitely possible...but occam's razor says it was a mistake by pcgs.
@cameonut2011 said:
Not to pour salt in the wound, but the mint mark does look very suspect. This is why collectors need to think and learn for themselves with a Reganesque “trust but verify” approach.
With that said, I am so sorry for your loss. I would have hoped the grading company would have stepped up to the plate especially given that it is not a huge amount of money for such a large company to eat.
But here’s the flip side: once they do this one time, where do they draw the line in the future? There will be other similar cases (not many, but likely not 0). There will be cases worth much more money. Some worth less. Some with better photographic evidence. Others with worse. They have a very clear policy, and if they go around it once, it opens up a can of worms in the future. Someone is always able to send the coin in in the original holder and maintain the protection and guarantee it affords.
All true but companies quietly go against stated policy every day. Think extraordinary circumstances and/or high value customers.
@PerryHall said:
Is it possible that someone took a real PCGS slabbed 1916-D dime, cracked out the dime, and then reused the original insert with a different shell, and then sealed a counterfeit coin in that slab. I've read here about unsealed slab shells occasionally getting out of PCGS and also being available from Chinese sellers. I'm not saying this is what happened here but is it possible?
definitely possible...but occam's razor says it was a mistake by pcgs.
I think it's more possible than PCGS not being able to detect an obvious fake 1916-D dime. The mint mark is all wrong. Some coins are checked very, very carefully by PCGS for added mintmarks and this is one of them.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If the coin was genuine, it might have gone G4, it was not even close to 8 IMO. Mercs are one of the few series that actually have nice detail at 4 and 6 so they have the “look” of an 8.
I was considering sending in some coins PCGS oh, but I really wonder if I want to or not. I still can't believe that happened to you gut-wrenching would be mild case of disappointment. Got to be hard to describe how you feel about this total Fiasco.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
So a question ... since a G 6 has a guide price of 1500 ... and upgrading to an 8 only increases guide to 1750 ... and a 10 to 2000. do you think it was ill advised to roll the dice with such small gains possible? In any case, I think it's good this was taken out of the marketplace since it's counterf. Sorry for your loss though.
It wasn't slabbed so there's nothing to crack out. It came back in a body bag.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Steven59 said:
Wow! I've never seen an originally PCGS graded coin then come back as a counterfeit before.
One of the biggest battles I ever saw at a coin show was because of a situation like this. A dealer I know sold another dealer a 1927-S Buffalo Nickel in a PCGS 64 holder. That dealer then cracked it out trying for a 65 and it came back added MM!
@alaura22 said:
After the fact doesn't help but why didn't you just send it in for reconsideration?
I've never trusted that.
Just curious why? Or why not try regrade?
If it's an added D (which most of us think it is), I'd be a fraudster as much as the "creator" of the coin.
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
@PerryHall said:
Is it possible that someone took a real PCGS slabbed 1916-D dime, cracked out the dime, and then reused the original insert with a different shell, and then sealed a counterfeit coin in that slab. I've read here about unsealed slab shells occasionally getting out of PCGS and also being available from Chinese sellers. I'm not saying this is what happened here but is it possible?
definitely possible...but occam's razor says it was a mistake by pcgs.
I think it's more possible than PCGS not being able to detect an obvious fake 1916-D dime. The mint mark is all wrong. Some coins are checked very, very carefully by PCGS for added mintmarks and this is one of them.
On an interesting note, it is ironic that PCGS calls an altered coin counterfeit. It slabs Cart’s work. Added dates would seem to be in the same vein as added mint mark. Fictitious dates change nothing unless we give the Chinese a free pass on some of their most “creative” works.
"Customer represents and warrants that it has no knowledge and no reasonable basis for belief that any collectible submitted is not genuine..."
assuming the coin was slabbed by pcgs initially ... said it was real, then they said fake, so maybe it's more like getting a third party opinion?
Then it's an issue for PCGS to sort out. Suggesting that it be dumped in NGC's lap is- well...
He should randomly test all the services. If it ever reholders, he should submit it to CAC for kicks and giggles to test quality control there too.
That brings up an interesting question? If you submit a certified coin to CAC either service, would CAC tell you that the coin is counterfit? OR would they just not sticker the coin...........
Anybody ever get a coin back from CAC saying that the coin was counterfit???
"Customer represents and warrants that it has no knowledge and no reasonable basis for belief that any collectible submitted is not genuine..."
assuming the coin was slabbed by pcgs initially ... said it was real, then they said fake, so maybe it's more like getting a third party opinion?
Then it's an issue for PCGS to sort out. Suggesting that it be dumped in NGC's lap is- well...
He should randomly test all the services. If it ever reholders, he should submit it to CAC for kicks and giggles to test quality control there too.
That brings up an interesting question? If you submit a certified coin to CAC either service, would CAC tell you that the coin is counterfit? OR would they just not sticker the coin...........
Anybody ever get a coin back from CAC saying that the coin was counterfit???
i don't know if anyone has gotten that back, but i am quite sure ja would put a red sticker on it
"Customer represents and warrants that it has no knowledge and no reasonable basis for belief that any collectible submitted is not genuine..."
assuming the coin was slabbed by pcgs initially ... said it was real, then they said fake, so maybe it's more like getting a third party opinion?
Then it's an issue for PCGS to sort out. Suggesting that it be dumped in NGC's lap is- well...
He should randomly test all the services. If it ever reholders, he should submit it to CAC for kicks and giggles to test quality control there too.
That brings up an interesting question? If you submit a certified coin to CAC either service, would CAC tell you that the coin is counterfit? OR would they just not sticker the coin...........
Anybody ever get a coin back from CAC saying that the coin was counterfit???
i don't know if anyone has gotten that back, but i am quite sure ja would put a red sticker on it
Humm...Interesting
Then the owner gets the coin back, rips off the red sticker and then sells it to an unknowing person.
"Customer represents and warrants that it has no knowledge and no reasonable basis for belief that any collectible submitted is not genuine..."
assuming the coin was slabbed by pcgs initially ... said it was real, then they said fake, so maybe it's more like getting a third party opinion?
Then it's an issue for PCGS to sort out. Suggesting that it be dumped in NGC's lap is- well...
He should randomly test all the services. If it ever reholders, he should submit it to CAC for kicks and giggles to test quality control there too.
That brings up an interesting question? If you submit a certified coin to CAC either service, would CAC tell you that the coin is counterfit? OR would they just not sticker the coin...........
Anybody ever get a coin back from CAC saying that the coin was counterfit???
I'm sure CAC would alert you if the coin is fake. I doubt CAC sees many fake coins if any in the slabs of the major grading services unless the slab is also fake.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
"Customer represents and warrants that it has no knowledge and no reasonable basis for belief that any collectible submitted is not genuine..."
assuming the coin was slabbed by pcgs initially ... said it was real, then they said fake, so maybe it's more like getting a third party opinion?
Then it's an issue for PCGS to sort out. Suggesting that it be dumped in NGC's lap is- well...
He should randomly test all the services. If it ever reholders, he should submit it to CAC for kicks and giggles to test quality control there too.
That brings up an interesting question? If you submit a certified coin to CAC either service, would CAC tell you that the coin is counterfit? OR would they just not sticker the coin...........
Anybody ever get a coin back from CAC saying that the coin was counterfit???
I'm sure CAC would alert you if the coin is fake. I doubt CAC sees many fake coins if any in the slabs of the major grading services unless the slab is also fake.
Yes, I agree that I would be told but, How about the grading company?
I have also cracked out coins and lost before. But, I have won more than lost. And, on those where I lost, I should have looked closer before cracking. I am okay with it, though.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
There was a 1909 S VDB around the first of this year that made it into PCGS plastic with an added VDB.
Now this 1916 D dime with an added D.
These are 2 of the most counterfeited US coins.
I would have hoped they were double checking key date, highly counterfeited coins better.
I honestly have been rather skeptical of the grading I had been seeing for a few years now, I have been told by a few dealers that PCGS has tightened things up this year. However I have not submitted anything in years due to what I had been seeing.
"Customer represents and warrants that it has no knowledge and no reasonable basis for belief that any collectible submitted is not genuine..."
assuming the coin was slabbed by pcgs initially ... said it was real, then they said fake, so maybe it's more like getting a third party opinion?
Then it's an issue for PCGS to sort out. Suggesting that it be dumped in NGC's lap is- well...
He should randomly test all the services. If it ever reholders, he should submit it to CAC for kicks and giggles to test quality control there too.
I'm thinking the services should be testing themselves with something like this. Would you want to be identified by PCGS/NGC as someone who's submitting fakes? I know I wouldn't.
@alaura22 said:
After the fact doesn't help but why didn't you just send it in for reconsideration?
I've never trusted that.
Just curious why? Or why not try regrade?
If it's an added D (which most of us think it is), I'd be a fraudster as much as the "creator" of the coin.
I meant when you sent it in. You could have sent in as reconsideration or regrade and still have the guarantee in place. You said you distrusted reconsideration so did you also distrust regrade? They would presumably have had to compensate you then.
I collect counterfeits and alterations from all services, no one has a clean record, and in my opinion
there are hundreds out there yet to be found. That is why they all have buyback funds. Outa the holder,outa luck. J.P.
Not counting the mintmark issue ….. I’ve also seen a couple similar examples in VG slabs … but with those letters bleeding into the rims, it should be an obvious no VG.
Sorry for your bad luck. But good to get a counterfeit off the market, too…so you did the hobby a service if it makes you feel any better!... 🤓
Wow! Sorry to hear about the setback. Does PCGS photograph every coin they grade? If they do then verifying whether they missed the counterfeit the first time around should be easy regardless of what the policy on crack outs might be.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I would not have noticed either, especially if in a slab. But, did you really think it might VG-8? It does not look like a candidate to me. I guess I could see the obverse as a vg, but the reverse is closer to 4.
Ugh! I hate to hear stories like this one.
I used to frequent this B&M in the late 1980’s and 1990’s and would look thru most of their stock of raw and certified material.
They had quite a bit of turnover and some nice coins.
Some of the material was on consignment from other “show” dealers.
I remember looking at certain raw coins and knew they were doctored. Anything from tooling to putty to retoned/ cleaned, etc.
Always noticed the same dealer consignment mark on the suspect coins.
Got to the point where I told the B&M owner not to show me any coins from that consigning dealer. He knew why.
wow... sorry it didn't work out for you! FWIW, I don't think I've ever seen a previously graded PCGS coin come back "counterfeit" before either. I've seen a graded coin come back with imperfections not previously spotted, but "genuine" is usually a given the first time around...
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
When you crack out ANY coin you're taking some risk. I can tell you several stories with similar coins. In fact, I cracked out
a 1925-D Buffalo nickel in 65 that was a monster coin (with a monster strike) that I thought was a 66. Unfortunately,
after I cracked it out. the mintmark fell off. So....I had a 1925-P coin....which did 66....not what I was hoping for. PCGS
had no liability (rightly so) since it was out of the holder. I would suggest using the regrade/reconsideration service for those that don't grade coins with regularity.
Comments
YES VERY POSSIBLE. Infact several 16-d mid grade and upper circ grade have been switched by a Bay Area operator. Operator buys legit 16-d and either reincapsulates with counterfeit or lower grade legit coin, uses same cert and new plastic. 16-d's climb the value ladder very quickly.
When I inspect a highly counterfeited coin, if the seller won't give me ample time to look up diagnostics, bon voyage.
ouch
definitely possible...but occam's razor says it was a mistake by pcgs.
All true but companies quietly go against stated policy every day. Think extraordinary circumstances and/or high value customers.
Smitten with DBLCs.
crack it out and re-submit to ngc
I think it's more possible than PCGS not being able to detect an obvious fake 1916-D dime. The mint mark is all wrong. Some coins are checked very, very carefully by PCGS for added mintmarks and this is one of them.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I’d hate to see the discussion here if someone claimed a PCGS graded coin was really a counterfeit.
If the coin was genuine, it might have gone G4, it was not even close to 8 IMO. Mercs are one of the few series that actually have nice detail at 4 and 6 so they have the “look” of an 8.
I was considering sending in some coins PCGS oh, but I really wonder if I want to or not. I still can't believe that happened to you gut-wrenching would be mild case of disappointment. Got to be hard to describe how you feel about this total Fiasco.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
So... lie?
NGC Services Terms and Conditions:
"Customer represents and warrants that it has no knowledge and no reasonable basis for belief that any collectible submitted is not genuine..."
So a question ... since a G 6 has a guide price of 1500 ... and upgrading to an 8 only increases guide to 1750 ... and a 10 to 2000. do you think it was ill advised to roll the dice with such small gains possible? In any case, I think it's good this was taken out of the marketplace since it's counterf. Sorry for your loss though.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
It wasn't slabbed so there's nothing to crack out. It came back in a body bag.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
One of the biggest battles I ever saw at a coin show was because of a situation like this. A dealer I know sold another dealer a 1927-S Buffalo Nickel in a PCGS 64 holder. That dealer then cracked it out trying for a 65 and it came back added MM!
If it's an added D (which most of us think it is), I'd be a fraudster as much as the "creator" of the coin.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
assuming the coin was slabbed by pcgs initially ... said it was real, then they said fake, so maybe it's more like getting a third party opinion?
Yes, I agree.............Just take the lose on move on...Sorry
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
i agree with you on the mint mark.
Not really. Get a friend to send it in under the guarantee review tier for you,
you're right
Then it's an issue for PCGS to sort out. Suggesting that it be dumped in NGC's lap is- well...
It happens. But it has to be a good fake. They generally don't miss an obvious fake.
On an interesting note, it is ironic that PCGS calls an altered coin counterfeit. It slabs Cart’s work. Added dates would seem to be in the same vein as added mint mark. Fictitious dates change nothing unless we give the Chinese a free pass on some of their most “creative” works.
Sholly Hit!!!
He should randomly test all the services. If it ever reholders, he should submit it to CAC for kicks and giggles to test quality control there too.
Its a bad D.... NGC will not slab that. I'm very shocked, but three graders and a finalizer missed that?? No way
I don’t think the coin itself is a fake. I think it is a 1916 Philadelphia issue with an added mint mark.
I know. But it's the D they would be looking at. Added MM are the most common fake 16-D dimes.
That brings up an interesting question? If you submit a certified coin to CAC either service, would CAC tell you that the coin is counterfit? OR would they just not sticker the coin...........
Anybody ever get a coin back from CAC saying that the coin was counterfit???
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
i don't know if anyone has gotten that back, but i am quite sure ja would put a red sticker on it
Humm...Interesting
Then the owner gets the coin back, rips off the red sticker and then sells it to an unknowing person.
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
I'm sure CAC would alert you if the coin is fake. I doubt CAC sees many fake coins if any in the slabs of the major grading services unless the slab is also fake.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There was a 1909 S VDB around the first of this year that made it into PCGS plastic with an added VDB.
Now this 1916 D dime with an added D.
These are 2 of the most counterfeited US coins.
I would have hoped they were double checking key date, highly counterfeited coins better.
Yes, I agree that I would be told but, How about the grading company?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
I have also cracked out coins and lost before. But, I have won more than lost. And, on those where I lost, I should have looked closer before cracking. I am okay with it, though.
I honestly have been rather skeptical of the grading I had been seeing for a few years now, I have been told by a few dealers that PCGS has tightened things up this year. However I have not submitted anything in years due to what I had been seeing.
Sorry about what happened to you Utah.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I'm thinking the services should be testing themselves with something like this. Would you want to be identified by PCGS/NGC as someone who's submitting fakes? I know I wouldn't.
I meant when you sent it in. You could have sent in as reconsideration or regrade and still have the guarantee in place. You said you distrusted reconsideration so did you also distrust regrade? They would presumably have had to compensate you then.
I collect counterfeits and alterations from all services, no one has a clean record, and in my opinion
there are hundreds out there yet to be found. That is why they all have buyback funds. Outa the holder,outa luck. J.P.
Not counting the mintmark issue ….. I’ve also seen a couple similar examples in VG slabs … but with those letters bleeding into the rims, it should be an obvious no VG.
Sorry for your bad luck. But good to get a counterfeit off the market, too…so you did the hobby a service if it makes you feel any better!... 🤓
Wow! Sorry to hear about the setback. Does PCGS photograph every coin they grade? If they do then verifying whether they missed the counterfeit the first time around should be easy regardless of what the policy on crack outs might be.
I would not have noticed either, especially if in a slab. But, did you really think it might VG-8? It does not look like a candidate to me. I guess I could see the obverse as a vg, but the reverse is closer to 4.
Tom
Ugh! I hate to hear stories like this one.
I used to frequent this B&M in the late 1980’s and 1990’s and would look thru most of their stock of raw and certified material.
They had quite a bit of turnover and some nice coins.
Some of the material was on consignment from other “show” dealers.
I remember looking at certain raw coins and knew they were doctored. Anything from tooling to putty to retoned/ cleaned, etc.
Always noticed the same dealer consignment mark on the suspect coins.
Got to the point where I told the B&M owner not to show me any coins from that consigning dealer. He knew why.
I have seen it half a dozen times with trade dollars
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
wow... sorry it didn't work out for you! FWIW, I don't think I've ever seen a previously graded PCGS coin come back "counterfeit" before either. I've seen a graded coin come back with imperfections not previously spotted, but "genuine" is usually a given the first time around...
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Just goes to show that the grading services don't always get it right. Shouldn't of been holdered the first time but once cracked out it's a raw coin.
you played your hand badly and paid the price, live and learn what not to do again
2003-present
https://www.omnicoin.com/security/users/login
If PCGS agrees that it is the same coin they improperly graded, then IMO they should compensate Utah. Yes, I acknowledge their crack out policy.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
No matter what's happening on this thread, this kids face makes it easier. 👍🏻 👍🏻
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Wow never seen this before. Very sad that it happened.
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
When you crack out ANY coin you're taking some risk. I can tell you several stories with similar coins. In fact, I cracked out
a 1925-D Buffalo nickel in 65 that was a monster coin (with a monster strike) that I thought was a 66. Unfortunately,
after I cracked it out. the mintmark fell off. So....I had a 1925-P coin....which did 66....not what I was hoping for. PCGS
had no liability (rightly so) since it was out of the holder. I would suggest using the regrade/reconsideration service for those that don't grade coins with regularity.