Morgans vs. Ikes
cladking
Posts: 28,701 ✭✭✭✭✭
Just a random thought here.
BU Morgans in pristine condition probably outnumber Ikes in the same condition about 3: 1 and in Gem condition about 10: 1.
The wholesale price of Ikes is up to $4 meaning there is a $3 numismatic premium to basal (face) value. You can't get any more for a Gem Ike unless you pay to have it graded and then most are worth less than the grading costs.
Meanwhile Morgans are worth about $20 in silver but wholesale at $50 which is exactly a $30 numismatic premium and exactly 10 times higher than the scarcer Ike.
No point really, just an observation. So long as demand for Gem Morgans is far higher than for Gem Ikes these formulae are unlikely to change.
Tempus fugit.
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Except that Morgans have the "romance" of 150 years of history and Western lore behind them...which is a major plus for both marketing and collecting.
Ike's may have had some residual good feelings for the general/president himself...but I guess that can't compare to actually being "old"...plus the Ike design doesn't hold a candle to the classic Morgan design.
Not to mention, assembling a complete Morgan set is quite a challenge...and we all like a challenge!
Ones made of gutter metal the other is made of scrap metal. One looks cool one has a dead president on it. At the present there is no up side to Ike’s, the following for the Morgan’s will remain higher. Neither coin is Rare as a whole. As one poster has pointed out the romance with the Wild West and the Morgan dollar give it way more popularly
I do enjoy Cladkings insights and thoughts on clad coinage
Martin
Admittedly clad Ikes are pretty impressive in the 67 grade.
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And seemingly scarcer than Morgans in the same grade.
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@asheland Morgans in 67 grade are impressive as well. Ikes probably seem to be scarce in that grade simply because of the risk of grading one and having it come back in a lower grade. It isn't worth the cost of getting them slabbed.
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Perhaps inside a slab, but the bald Ike versus Lady Liberty argument is sure one-sided......
For me, the feel of the clad Eisenhower dollar in hand definitely feels thinner, bigger and more slippery while compared to the compact solid feel of the silver Morgan.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Not "seemly"- simply are. 100%.
Edited to add: I am speaking of clad Ikes, business strikes. (There are obviously tens of thousands of 40% silver "S" mint Ikes in 67...)
Right now on eBay there are over 100 PCGS MS67 Morgans being offered for sale and there are two MS67 (clad) Ikes.
peacockcoins
It's always funny to consider how the 34-S Peace dollar wasn't recognized as a condition rarity in mint state until most had been distributed. Someone paying attention could have acquired any number of them. What we currently consider "common" might be viewed totally differently in the future.
That said, I think all of us will be long gone before Ikes are as popular as Morgans. Ikes circulated within living memory, and that taints their status as a "collectible" coin in the eyes of many. The silver content, number of spectacular toners, minting quirks, broad availability, and breadth of the series gives Morgans quite a boost too.
Ikes really have something for everyone... size, varieties, condition rarities, real rarities that need to be calibrated onto radars so they can be appreciated for what they are- The 1971-s type I Proof has a unique story of intrigue and mystery and will likely remain a mystery... it likely is among the rarest proof coins of the 20th Century.
The coin really is somewhat of a time capsule that should capture greater interest for what it is but it remains a work in progress to attract interest for reasons predicated on excuses for what it is not.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I also have another theory...I don't think reusing the Ike reverse on the "failed" SBA dollar helped generate any warm and fuzzies for the former.
I have sets of both...but I can see how that may have colored perceptions, especially since many of today's collectors came of age in the 70s and 80s...so perceptions hardened.
Maybe our kids or grandkids will feel differently without this bias.
Just my 2 cents.
Wholesale Ike to face value is 4:1
Wholesale Morgan to Silver value is 2.5:1
Maybe Ikes are valued more than Morgans.
(Fun with numbers!)
The real nice thing about Ikes IMO is that the series is very collectable. It was the first type that I finished a full series both in a Dansco and slabbed.
K
I picked up a nice slabbed PCGS 70 ASE type 2 for $56. CPG is $90, sweet deal. Would rather buy slabbed ASE than more expensive generic Morgan’s with their huge 10,000 plus pops. I think they will crash back to 2019 levels or lower soon.
So don’t care for Morgan’s or Ike’s. Ike’s cupronickel nickel or low silver content (not for me). Been their done that. Won a nice slabbed Mexico 1940’s PCGS 65 Silver Peso for $35 / really super deal vs US! That’s around slab cost! Just stacking them up.
Made for circulation Ikes are boring and unattractive. That sums up for me. That’s they have only a small numismatic premium. Deep cameo Proofs, like the one shown above, are attractive, but they were made for collectors.
Yes, Morgan Dollars are expensive these days. I saw dealer in my local shop charge a beginning collector just over $200 for an 1881-S in a PCGS MS-65 holder. I felt sorry for the collector until I saw the asking prices on the Internet at even higher levels and the $180 bid on the Grey Sheet. I can remember when people got excited when the Grey Sheet number got up to $100, which was considered to be quite high.
Another argument against Ike's is they never really circulated other than as a novelty.
This isn't really untrue however it misses the simple fact that the "entire" mintage other than those few set aside is now in circulated and degraded condition. Yes, many are nice chAU and you can even find some really nice sliders if you look through enough of them but the bulk are in XF+ to AU- condition and are usually scratched more than their condition suggests. Remember as well most of these were poorly made and you'll understand why the wholesale price for BU's is now $4.
Don't forget the mint sets are largely gone and all the Ikes don't appear in sets. The surviving mint sets are being dismantled quickly to save these coins from creeping tarnish. The demand for nice chBU's is outstripping the supply. This is occurring despite the fact that many collectors find these coins undesirable and ridiculously "common". Nice attractive specimens of many of these coins will be very highly elusive. Sure, there are plenty enough nice attractive '76 tI's or '71's for today's market but today's demand is almost nonexistent. Only some 10% of the '76 in the '75 mint sets weren't a mess. Roll coins are not often seen due to low mintage but the best guess is these were awful as well (this is one of two moderns I've never seen in rolls since they were issued).
It seems somewhat improbable that Ikes will ever get the level of demand seen for Morgans but it seems far more highly improbable that demand won't continue to grow and evolve. And it is this evolution that might be the more important factor. Many collectors simply don't have a nice example of each date. If you chose a '76 tI at random there is less than a 10% chance yours is nice. The upgrading of poorly made and poorly preserved coins can keep the modern markets going even without the new demand that is still ballooning. There is a great deal of room for increasing demand for MS-64 for many years to come. There is no wholesale market because the retail market hardly exists. Nobody has much stock of the coins because it was and is so hard to get and cost so much to maintain. Accumulating stock today is exceedingly difficult because of the destruction of mint sets and their soaring cost not to mention the tarnish that affects so many.
Interesting perspective. Thanks.
I think of it the way I do because it is only demand that creates a numismatic premium and premiums are usually closely correlated to this demand (relative supply).
@cladking I think your math is actually more representative of the market and consumer sentiment, as it deals in absolute dollars, not multiples/ratios, like mine. It’s just another way to look at it, though.
@ShaunBC5
If we really live in one of an infinite number of worlds with an infinite number of pyramids built with an infinite number of ramps then it certainly follows that when it comes to mathematics it's a matter of "to each his own".
There's probably some important information in your observation even if I have no idea for how to interpret it.
I'll be thinking about it though.
My math works well for spotting "undervalued" items but unless these items are far more similar than Morgans vs Ikes the formula can be worthless. In this specific case I believe there are parallels since the main thing that separates an '04 Morgan from a '71 Ike is the peace dollar and two thirds of a century of relatively low inflation. There are many similarities in the usage and function of the coin. Morgans were rarely worn but when they were it was out west just as Ikes were rarely worn but when they were it was out west in the Nevada casinos.
A very large percentage of Morgans survived in Unc but very small percentage of Ikes survived. Many Morgans were melted and more and more it's looking like the Ikes may have been as well.
Thanks again.
Although I have a complete set in high grades...even as a young collector, I found the Ike design to be flat and lifeless...can't really say why...but that was my initial impression. It's ironic that many people used to feel the same way about Peace dollars vs. Morgans...uninspiring...but that's also changed in recent years with the Peace dollars enjoying a resurgance.
Maybe Ike will also have his day...I'm sure that the "newest" coin now almost being 50 years old may be playing a role in that...along with relative scarcity in the highest grades...especially for kids coming up now.
I didn't like Ikes at all as a coin or a collectible until 1979 when I stumbled on my first Gem. Despite looking at large numbers I had never seen a Gem or set an Ike aside. After finding that first one (a '77 in MS-66 IMS) I began seeing more Gems because I looked more closely. Now I like them all the way down to chBU but set aside only higher grades; nice attractive MS-64 and higher. Just because an Ike has few scratches is not enough for me to like it. It needs to be well made also.
A lot of people including myself found the design very unattractive in 1970 but like much art the passage of time has an effect. It now seems like pretty good art for its era and subject matter. The eagle on the moon has especially improved to my eye.
To each his own. I doubt the Ike is ever going to be considered the epitome of the coiners' art in aesthetics or in its execution.
And PS...I still don't understand why 99% of the 1973 40% silver Ikes seem to be cloudy/unattractive...AND THAT WAS ALSO THE CASE IN 1974!!!!
Were those blanks defective or were those black cases defective?!? I know you also come across cloudy examples for the other years...but 1973 seemed to be Apocalyptically bad
@BillJones
Just so you are aware... the proof 1971-s I posted is not just any proof Ike, but is the rare Type I reverse proof which is quite rare. Currently there are likely between 15-20 known... and the story behind the mintage and the actual number produced for this coin remains one of the most under-appreciated numismatic mysteries of the 20th century.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I like "Ike",...................................... partly due to the fact that when I played basketball in high school and in college one of my nicknames was "IKE!!!!!!!"
I also currently like "Ike" because I have nine Clad MS Ikes currently at PCGS for grading (and if they grade out at or above my personal assigned grades I will be very happy).
Morgans to me are not a series that have much interest in at this time (probably because I have not seen the best examples of these coins in hand). Peace dollars are of some interest to me, as are Ike dollars.
I think Ike dollars are a wonderful series and that the Morgan/Peace dollar are overrated. The Ike Dollar is just a larger version of the Washington Quarter IMO that has less dates and harder to get higher grades.
Very astute observation. There are numerous parallels. Where a few dates of the quarters are as tough in Gem as any Ike the aggregate number of clad quarters in Gem condition just completely swamps the number of Gem Ikes. There are hundreds of times more Gem clad quarters in aggregate than Gem clad Ikes! This makes the Ike quite desirable as a type coin where the clad quarter is too "common" to hold much interest.
In fact this applies to all circulation issue moderns. While Gem FS Jeffersons are very tough there are a few very common dates ('71-D) that make Jeffersons in Gem common for type. Most clad dimes are common in Gem but a few are common is FB as well.
The Ike is the only circulation issue modern that is tough for type in Gem. The "common" dates for Ikes are the '77 and '78-D. While few Gems survive in sets Gems once accounted for about 2% of mint sets for these two coins.
I'll make a "global" statement re all US dollar series...as an avid collector of PL "business strike" dollars...that's what does it for me...especially with Morgans...I just wish PLs were as plentiful with Peace and Ike dollars.
Allegorical Liberty will always be better than a bald politician alien head bust thing.
[[Allegorical Liberty will always be better than a bald politician alien head bust thing.]]
Don't laugh...before this comment, I was also thinking that "bald" Ike...and there really is a lot of head there...never helped the design vs. wavy haired JFK for instance.
Kinda random and unfair on my part...but there it is.
I bet today, that coin would be executed with a more "friendly" face on view.
BTW...has anyone definitely determined why so many brown box Ike's got hazy so quickly? Was it planchet contamination, grease or oil residue, bad packaging, or all of the above???
And can a hazy proof Ike be broken out and treated...or is the haze etched into the surface?
I have several Ike dollars I picked up over the years... some raw, others in the Mint packages - just a few of those. I like the big dollar coins.... Left over from when I was a kid. The big dollar coins were super impressive - an a lot of money then for a kid. Could still get Morgans at the bank when I was young... Not that I did, but they were available. I remember my Dad saying he should get a few and save them. He did get a couple, but he was not a collector. Cheers, RickO