You'll notice that the examples I listed tend to concern things which benefit people first-hand, the perceived "unfairness" tends to concern events which happen to/for someone else. In other words, when it happens to me it's good, when it happens to someone else it's bad. That is illogical.
If people are going to concern themselves with the nuances of the Hobby, shouldn't they have an understanding that it's as much Art as Science?? To that end, complaining about something as expressed by the OP but participating in other things such as multiple re-submissions until a "grading event" takes place which pleases the submitter is a little disingenuous.
I just clicked "agree", but wanted to be sure you saw it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Maywood said:
To that end, complaining about something as expressed by the OP but participating in other things such as multiple re-submissions until a "grading event" takes place which pleases the submitter is a little disingenuous.
I suspect the complaints aren't so much about the fact that these things happen- rather, it's because these things don't happen to their coins.
Why are graders still mistaking die polish lines as cleaning? That is grading 101.
I had a 19-D walker grade "unc details cleaned" 1st trip in submitting myself and next time at a show it graded Au58 and later stickered. I thought the details grade was extremely unfair as there was clearly nothing wrong with the coin.
I'd bet a lot of people only submit coins once, and take the first grade is gospel.
@TurtleCat I do agree with the current grade. Of course that's my opinion and not that of any service or any other grader, but my grade would be the current grade.
This is part of the game with early gold, there are a lot of borderline coins that could end up in a "cleaned" details slab, or in a graded holder that is within the opinion of acceptable cleaning with the graders at that point in time. Incandescent bulbs magnify hairlines on gold, and other lighting can minimize or hide hairlines, including TrueViews.
Caveat emptor.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
What I find astonishing about this coin is not that it could be first graded details, and then straight-graded, but that the plastic holder more than doubled the perceived value. You would think anyone in the market for a six-figure early gold coin would be more sophisticated than to fall for this nonsense.
One further comment to underscore the subjectivity of coin grading: years ago (around 1998) I had a 1911-D $2.50 that I graded MS63 that kept coming back MS62 and also no-graded for "cleaning" a couple of times. Both PCGS and NGC had agreed with each other at various times that it was either MS62 or "cleaned," but neither ever agreed with my grade of MS63. I was looking through the inventory of another dealer, who was then and still is very active in our market. He had an 1893-S Morgan dollar that had been graded as "AU Details Cleaned" by PCGS. Neither one of us wanted to put up the money to buy the other person's "overpriced" grading fail (the market wasn't so robust in 1998, and we weren't quite as well off perhaps as we are now), but he suggested that we trade "white elephants." I ended up with his 1893-S dollar and he with my 1911-D $2.50 with a check exchanging hands for a small difference in value. The next time I saw him a few weeks later he asked me "hey did the 1893-S dollar work?" I replied that yes, it had; it had graded AU50 at PCGS, which was quite a nice score when I eventually sold it. He started to walk away and I stopped him with "hey what about 'my' 1911-D?" With a sheepish smile, he told me that it had graded MS63 on the first trip in for grading. Lesson to be underscored here: the only absolute when it comes to coin grading is that it is extremely subjective.
Nothing to add regarding the coin in question other than grading a coin from online photography is subject to error.
Regarding the seller mentioned above, I recognized the EBAY name TNFC and knew I bot some of my Morgans from them in the past. Checked my list (the hundred of Morgans I ever bot & sold & still hold) and I had 5 purchases from them, all NGC graded, and everyone of them was a winner and won at a fair price. I know I bid on more but didn't win. I was extremely happy and thought they had great stuff for sale.
@NFCCoins said:
Hi Everyone,
This is Matthew Kleinsteuber for NFC Coins. This morning I was made aware of this thread and after 20 years in the business decided to sign up and post a comment on the forum. The coin in question, a 1797 $2.5, is being very unjustly spoken about as being played with or doctored. We bought this coin in the Heritage sale in an AU details Cleaned holder; it was from the Long Island Collection which had a very nice group of early coins. The coin was broken out of its holder and resubmitted for grading where it came back AU53. The coin has been changed 0% to the coin photo’d in the Heritage sale. As many of you have mentioned, lighting plays a big role in coins and we at NFC use a real camera with a flash in a light box, which can make coins look very different from one photo to another. I welcome anyone who would like to see the coin to come to our office in Winter Springs FL or to see the coin in person next week at Central States. I know that if you look at the coin in person you will 100% agree that it’s the same coin, in the exact same state as purchased in auction- no changes, no doctoring, no conservation. As for some of the comments about the grade of the coin, grading is subjective. The 1797 $2.5 historically has a weak obverse due to the die cracking. As a result, the reverse is taken into account more heavily to determine the true grade and the grade of this wonderful mintage of only 427 - 1797 $2.5 is AU53 . I have attached a link (I hope) as this is my first post to new pics I took on my iPhone and you will see even they don't all look the same, we are also taking new pics for the website so that hopefully its easier for everyone to see that the coin is in no way changed at all.
Thank you for your time
Matthew Kleinsteuber
That was an excellent, informative post. And I doubt that many in your position of having been hit with some unfair shots/accusations, would have handled it as well.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@NFCCoins said:
Hi Everyone,
This is Matthew Kleinsteuber for NFC Coins.
Welcome Matt! I know you’re a Capped Bust Half expert so please join in and share with us- just don’t go showing us your random beat up parking lot finds haha!
The 1797 $2.5 was my first coin purchase which led me to collect the series. It is a cool date and one very rare coin. I can't say why it straight graded second time around but i have had a similar experience with another coin going CAC'd to body bagged to straight graded and given a gold sticker in the end albeit at a lower grade than it was originally CAC'd. The point is that it subjective. Congrats to Matthew for paying up and taking the risk successfully.
Here is my coin. It's a PCGS 55 CAC and one of my favorites.
One of my favorite coins I bought raw and submitted to pcgs. Came back AU details environmental damage. Waited a year and resubmitted. Came back AU details cleaned. Waited another year and resubmitted and it came back straight AU graded. It happens.
On "suspicious" dirt on a very old coin would a grading service every try carbon 14 dating or other methods to try to find its vintage and therefore establish whether or not it was recent?
@logger7 said:
On "suspicious" dirt on a very old coin would a grading service every try carbon 14 dating or other methods to try to find its vintage and therefore establish whether or not it was recent?
Never. It's too expensive and time consuming.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I don't know anything about early gold, but have seen quite a few Bust Dollars and Early Copper. Don't get me started re doctored coins and Bust Dollars. Before you buy any expensive pre 1815 coin, look at as many as you can in the grade(s) that interest you. That said, I always have someone who knows more than I do look at any such purchase before I buy it.
90% + of what I've seen from this period, that I could afford, I did not like. Suggestion: buy what you like in the holder that suits you, and leave it there. I'm a big fan of older holders, because I've seen an expensive (for me) old copper turn in holder years after I bought it.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I've known Matt K. for many years and I take him at his word.
Coin get upgraded all the time, from straight grade to straight grade, from one company's holder to another, and from a details grade to a straight grade. Nothing new here.
Photography can make a huge difference on the appearance of a coin. I was fooled on this 1825 quarter eagle, which I bought years ago from a Heritage auction. The Heritage photos were over exposed which hid the hairlines.
When I got the coin, it looked more like this.
The problem with this type is that the mintages were very low, and many examples have P-L surfaces that emphasize every mark. Therefore these coins tend to look worse than they are. The assigned grade to this piece was MS-61.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
Photography can make a huge difference on the appearance of a coin. I was fooled on this 1825 quarter eagle, which I bought years ago from a Heritage auction. The Heritage photos were over exposed which hid the hairlines.
The problem with this type is that the mintages were very low, and many examples have P-L surfaces that emphasize every mark. Therefore these coins tend to look worse than they are. The assigned grade to this piece was MS-61.
I actually like that coin as a 61, but those photos were very misleading.
If I ever bought an expensive coin from Heritage, I would try my best to go to lot viewing, or have someone I trust view it.
Most of the time I can interpret Heritage photos, and this one was one of those learning experiences. Traveling to look at auction lots can be expensive and counterproductive. What if it's a bad lot? What if it brings moon money, which often happens to me. If I can see that lots at a show, great. If not then I have to work with what I have.
Here's another MS-61 graded piece that is more like what it should be. I bought this one at a coin convention, and it cost several thousand dollars less.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@GRANDAM said:
Wouldn't that "scratch" keep it in a details holder or are we calling that a cracked planchet?
That is a die break that is diagnostic on all known BD-1 survivors. The planchet is fine, but the obverse die cracked and the resultant coins show this heavy die break.
@GRANDAM said:
Wouldn't that "scratch" keep it in a details holder or are we calling that a cracked planchet?
That is a die break that is diagnostic on all known BD-1 survivors. The planchet is fine, but the obverse die cracked and the resultant coins show this heavy die break.
Comments
I just clicked "agree", but wanted to be sure you saw it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I suspect the complaints aren't so much about the fact that these things happen- rather, it's because these things don't happen to their coins.
Why are graders still mistaking die polish lines as cleaning? That is grading 101.
I had a 19-D walker grade "unc details cleaned" 1st trip in submitting myself and next time at a show it graded Au58 and later stickered. I thought the details grade was extremely unfair as there was clearly nothing wrong with the coin.
I'd bet a lot of people only submit coins once, and take the first grade is gospel.
@TurtleCat I do agree with the current grade. Of course that's my opinion and not that of any service or any other grader, but my grade would be the current grade.
This is part of the game with early gold, there are a lot of borderline coins that could end up in a "cleaned" details slab, or in a graded holder that is within the opinion of acceptable cleaning with the graders at that point in time. Incandescent bulbs magnify hairlines on gold, and other lighting can minimize or hide hairlines, including TrueViews.
Caveat emptor.
What I find astonishing about this coin is not that it could be first graded details, and then straight-graded, but that the plastic holder more than doubled the perceived value. You would think anyone in the market for a six-figure early gold coin would be more sophisticated than to fall for this nonsense.
One further comment to underscore the subjectivity of coin grading: years ago (around 1998) I had a 1911-D $2.50 that I graded MS63 that kept coming back MS62 and also no-graded for "cleaning" a couple of times. Both PCGS and NGC had agreed with each other at various times that it was either MS62 or "cleaned," but neither ever agreed with my grade of MS63. I was looking through the inventory of another dealer, who was then and still is very active in our market. He had an 1893-S Morgan dollar that had been graded as "AU Details Cleaned" by PCGS. Neither one of us wanted to put up the money to buy the other person's "overpriced" grading fail (the market wasn't so robust in 1998, and we weren't quite as well off perhaps as we are now), but he suggested that we trade "white elephants." I ended up with his 1893-S dollar and he with my 1911-D $2.50 with a check exchanging hands for a small difference in value. The next time I saw him a few weeks later he asked me "hey did the 1893-S dollar work?" I replied that yes, it had; it had graded AU50 at PCGS, which was quite a nice score when I eventually sold it. He started to walk away and I stopped him with "hey what about 'my' 1911-D?" With a sheepish smile, he told me that it had graded MS63 on the first trip in for grading. Lesson to be underscored here: the only absolute when it comes to coin grading is that it is extremely subjective.
Nothing to add regarding the coin in question other than grading a coin from online photography is subject to error.
Regarding the seller mentioned above, I recognized the EBAY name TNFC and knew I bot some of my Morgans from them in the past. Checked my list (the hundred of Morgans I ever bot & sold & still hold) and I had 5 purchases from them, all NGC graded, and everyone of them was a winner and won at a fair price. I know I bid on more but didn't win. I was extremely happy and thought they had great stuff for sale.
Welcome to the forum, Matt.
That was an excellent, informative post. And I doubt that many in your position of having been hit with some unfair shots/accusations, would have handled it as well.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Welcome Matt! I know you’re a Capped Bust Half expert so please join in and share with us- just don’t go showing us your random beat up parking lot finds haha!
The 1797 $2.5 was my first coin purchase which led me to collect the series. It is a cool date and one very rare coin. I can't say why it straight graded second time around but i have had a similar experience with another coin going CAC'd to body bagged to straight graded and given a gold sticker in the end albeit at a lower grade than it was originally CAC'd. The point is that it subjective. Congrats to Matthew for paying up and taking the risk successfully.
Here is my coin. It's a PCGS 55 CAC and one of my favorites.
One of my favorite coins I bought raw and submitted to pcgs. Came back AU details environmental damage. Waited a year and resubmitted. Came back AU details cleaned. Waited another year and resubmitted and it came back straight AU graded. It happens.
I’ve been to NFC also. A great shop and good staff. 👍
My YouTube Channel
On "suspicious" dirt on a very old coin would a grading service every try carbon 14 dating or other methods to try to find its vintage and therefore establish whether or not it was recent?
Never. It's too expensive and time consuming.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Wow, unbelievable in a bad way.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
I don't know anything about early gold, but have seen quite a few Bust Dollars and Early Copper. Don't get me started re doctored coins and Bust Dollars. Before you buy any expensive pre 1815 coin, look at as many as you can in the grade(s) that interest you. That said, I always have someone who knows more than I do look at any such purchase before I buy it.
90% + of what I've seen from this period, that I could afford, I did not like. Suggestion: buy what you like in the holder that suits you, and leave it there. I'm a big fan of older holders, because I've seen an expensive (for me) old copper turn in holder years after I bought it.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Ron Guth, Chief Investigator
The Numismatic Detective Agency
Photography can make a huge difference on the appearance of a coin. I was fooled on this 1825 quarter eagle, which I bought years ago from a Heritage auction. The Heritage photos were over exposed which hid the hairlines.
When I got the coin, it looked more like this.
The problem with this type is that the mintages were very low, and many examples have P-L surfaces that emphasize every mark. Therefore these coins tend to look worse than they are. The assigned grade to this piece was MS-61.
I actually like that coin as a 61, but those photos were very misleading.
If I ever bought an expensive coin from Heritage, I would try my best to go to lot viewing, or have someone I trust view it.
Most of the time I can interpret Heritage photos, and this one was one of those learning experiences. Traveling to look at auction lots can be expensive and counterproductive. What if it's a bad lot? What if it brings moon money, which often happens to me. If I can see that lots at a show, great. If not then I have to work with what I have.
Here's another MS-61 graded piece that is more like what it should be. I bought this one at a coin convention, and it cost several thousand dollars less.
Matt thanks for sharing your terrific cross, and for verifying it was just what we all hope for when we send in our genuine holder coins for regrade!
I appreciate all the eduction you have provided for me personally over the years. One of these days i need to take your ANA grading course.
Wouldn't that "scratch" keep it in a details holder or are we calling that a cracked planchet?
That is a die break that is diagnostic on all known BD-1 survivors. The planchet is fine, but the obverse die cracked and the resultant coins show this heavy die break.
I figured it was something like that,,,,,,,,