Misleading Images
RedCopper
Posts: 173 ✭✭✭
I am a copper specialist and the fact that most images are shown on line can be deceptive .The lighting can be very deceptive and so can lot viewing. I recently looked at an upcoming auction
Of Lincoln cents . Three coins I looked at were the 1909 in ms 67+ CAC, 1914D ms 65red and the 1920s ms 65 red. The 1909 looked the same in the holder and out of the holder . However both the 1914D and the 1920 s both looked like ms66 red
Out of the holder and ms 64-65 bn in the holder.
This is why auction companies need to get rid of this deceptive ambiguity and misrepresentation.
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Paging @ErrorsOnCoins
Kinda preaching to the choir on this topic. I detest poor pics. Quality images are appreciated by many collectors here.
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Coin photography can be very deceptive... both intentionally and unintentionally. Lighting, position, angle, slabbed or raw.... Cheers, RickO
How are you viewing certified coins in and out of their holders?
Collector, occasional seller
I know of no auction company that uses deceptive images.
Every photographer photographs coins differently, but I am not sure how controlled the photo set up is at the different auction companies.
The color of the image can be vastly different with various computer monitors.
People see colors differently.
The range of talent of individual photographer is all over the place.
I buy coins all the time from horrible photography.
I have never bought any coins from a deceptive image.
It's tough to image cents without top notch photographic set-ups. I'd also say that juiced images of all types of coins on ebay are not uncommon. Though the TV images are the best out there, in person my coins never look that good.
I agree TrueViews are among the best images out there, but often times, my coins are even better in person. When doing a high volume operation like TrueView, the camera set up cannot be adjusted for each coin.
Here's one coin where I thought the TrueView was gorgeous and the coin is even more so in hand,
Here's one that @Catbert, who's very tough on images, thought was spot on:
Here are a couple of professionally done images. What do you think the coin really looks like?
I think the slab pair is a scan so I'm not sure if "professionally done" applies.
I haven't seen the in hand, so if you have, why don't you tell us?
The coin looks exactly like both of those images. Just a difference in lighting.
The image was created by (or for) Stacks for one of their auctions. If that's not professional enough, how about this?
The coin looks exactly like both of those images. Just a difference in lighting.
One caveat I'd apply: there are coins, particularly if they have some reflectivity in their fields, where the color can be exaggerated in a photo because to fully light the coin to see the color, the coin gets bright enough that it's difficult to look at, whereas a camera can adjust itself to compensate for that. This is also not to mention that some coins photographed raw or with multiple lights can't be (easily if at all) viewed in hand the same way they are in a photo, especially if slab glare is present.
I like copper too, but imaging it has some challenges. That said, looking at images of copper coins in auctions is a hit or miss proposition... whether intentionally or unintentionally... I'll consider a coin, but the next thing I look for is the return policy!! Its just too easy to juice the color to hide old cleanings/dippings/recoloring/ whatever...
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It's all about having enough images to represent the coin, especially if there are vivid colors when tilted into a light. The below example is an 1864 half dollar that grades VF-30. I'm showing just the obverse here for this example; the reverse is a nice pleasing circulated gray with hints of pale blue. The first image shows the coin at a normal angle, the second when it was tilted into the light. Neither one is deceptive, but when you include only one angle/one image on coins like this you are leaving out large part of the story. If I only post image #1 below, I underrepresent the coin. If I only post images #2, that could be interpreted is being deceptive, since the coin looks like that only when held at the right angle.
I'd rather have too many images (and videos) than not enough. You won't go wrong unless every shot is blurry.
1:
2:
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Lot viewing is deceptive? There is no misleading in lot viewing.
Reading photos becomes much easier once you are familiar with axial lighting techniques.
My experience with Goldberg auction copper photos was disappointing. The color was way off to the in hand view.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Especially for copper, the color difference could be a factor of 10 in price.
A photo might not tell you everything you need to know and it would help to see the coin in hand, I guess?
Lol. I would never pay full red prices on a coin, even in a "red" holder, based on a photo.
I don't think EOC has that issue with the errors.
I disagree that it is just a difference in lighting. Sometimes PCGS photos cast a orange/brown hue over the entire coin which doesn't really exist on a blast white coin.
Many images for coins online are total garbage. Vendors should get the idea by now that a high quality image that captures the coin as it looks in hand, is necessary. And I am not talking about the juiced up images that make the coin look better than it really is. Just what it looks in hand under a good light. In addition, on feepay, so many of the images are scans not even a camera image. Yikes. This is why CAC carries so much leverage, one can at least see that someone of high respect viewed the coin and accepted it..............
I agree fully that the 'talent of photographers is all over the place'. It takes years to get all types of coins captured correctly, but that is the point and what is needed to sell online IMO.
Best, SH
Copper is pretty easy to shoot well and accurately. Silver and nickel too. Gold can many times be challenging.........
I absolutely love RED coins ...
I can never seem to get accurate color... it's probably my Byzantine set-up...
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TV's are 'glam shots', taking the images raw and in their best look, not always what you see in hand. See this one for example:
These are my images, what the coin looks like in hand under the light at around 99% of the orientations.
Here is the TV:
I spent alot of time trying to recreate such an image. But in a slab, you can't with out alot of glare over the coin itself. You have to have the light angle just right, and the coin angle just right, and then you can just start to see the colors in the tone. Most that view the coin in hand would miss it. Raw, with someone of experience, you can get this image. Is it really representative? Not really. I want accurate images of my coins and I would like to see them on line as well. As noted above, uncommon, and even with some images that make the coin look 'wow', well, they may not be. Hence an in hand view is usually necessary.
Best, SH
When I see an image in hand, then with 2 loops at 2 different X's it then goes to my stripping room.
I 'm gonna call it this because I try to expose all aspects, angles and lighting. It's very rare I try to match it's color.
The filters from this camera are show as colors and when you get comfortable with the why there's an "ahha" moment.
One other thing I've found out is always flip, turn and make certain your content with its view.
Color match only upon request.
Looks more red brown in the photo.
I'm curious about how lot viewing can be deceptive. Is it that the room lighting used for lot viewing is not similar to other lighting?
Yes. I've been on BM shops with the same lighting problem. Nothing looks the same outside the room.
"Hocus-focus" comes to mind.
I know one well known dealer that uses it to intentionally mislead.
He has a really good return policy though which is strange.
My Saint Set
I assume he means out-of-the-holder is a Trueview image vs. an in-the-holder slab shot. I know Stuart is a legend but even he can't open a slab and snap it back together.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
The auction house is not going to let you take the coin out of lot viewing into the daylight. If you do not like the lighting you bring your own light.
There is nothing misleading about lot viewing. That is absurd.
when I return a coin because "in Hand" it is very different than the photo and say it was not the same to the seller.
Boy they get very offended like we collectors are amateurs and know nothing. tells me they are amateurs.
professionals understand this conflict. "in hand " is my last judgmental filtering step". my filter not theirs.
Auction house and TPG photos are usually reasonably good. everything else online is suspect to desception.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
In the holder and out of the holder? Did you crack these out?
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
White balance?
Exactly... I'm using an old Canon digital camera (12 megapixel) and theres a setting for white balance. Everything seems to be ok when I'm just balancing on a blank white card, but when I put a coin in front of it, everything looks sepia toned and darker... it also doesn't help that I'm cramped for space in my office and don't have a dedicated setup yet...
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They have grey cards specifically for getting proper WB - 18% neutral gray. Try that?
https://www.pixelz.com/blog/need-accurate-color-let-grey-cards-white-balancing-come-rescue/
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you know, your post made me think of a nice method to get a feel for the lighting vs coins in various venues to learn if the lighting is less than favorable.
if we carry a couple of our favorite/well-studied coins and look at those at certain venues to see how our lighting at home/office differs from said venue(s), it may help give a base line to make better decisions.
for a fact some venue's lighting VASTLY affect the outcome and is probably one of the biggest challenges i've personally faced.