@yspsales said:
Coins are especially tough to photograph even with a fairly deep set of skills.
Back in the day when I photographed weddings, you had to be top notch as an editor (or pay someone).
The computer, software, and storage needed was not cheap.
All the other hats you had to wear are comparable to being a coin dealer (ie... run a business)
Currently dealing with the overwhelming volume of liquidating my baseball card collection.
After, three decades, I figure the needle moved on this market and there will be a cliff for common date stuff.
Just don't have the time to devote myself to numismatics outside of looking for cherrypicks and crackout candidates.
Staying liquid and looking.
Anytime I try to mix a hobby with making money it tends to sap the joy very quickly.
See the above... photography and sports cards.
Well said. Time is the one thing you cant make more of. Its too bad there's no easy way out - handing down a baseball card collection to grand kids who never played baseball is like handing Pokeman cards out at a nursing home.
“When you don't know what you're talking about, it's hard to know when you're finished.” - Tommy Smothers
Coin shows are like baseball games. They're easier to watch from home on a video screen than to go in person. But the experience is not the same. I remember my first coin show in 1964, seeing a giant prototype of the first Kennedy Half Dollar and getting a Peace Dollar in a cardboard holder for very little. That was enough to get me hooked.
“When you don't know what you're talking about, it's hard to know when you're finished.” - Tommy Smothers
Any detail you can imagine you're seeing in a magnified photo is present in the item itself. I suppose if using a loupe is difficult for you, that would be a problem, though.
edited to add... carpal tunnel syndrome was practically invented by people using a keyboard and a mouse.
My interpretation is that in-person shows are not as important after the coin market survived Covid. Many more people are comfortable purchasing sight unseen now.
Is it truly "purchasing sight unseen" when the seller provides high quality pics? I remember the pre-internet, pre-third-party grading days when dealer price lists only had a verbal description and their grade of raw coins they were selling. I wasted a lot of money on insured postage returning coins that were misrepresented.
Yes, based on the long-established use of the expression. If you haven't seen/viewed the actual coin in hand before buying it, you're "purchasing sight unseen".
That doesn't mean that you don't have a much better idea what it looks like than you would without seeing images, but it's still sight-unseen.
Agree. Photos are still far from holding a coin in hand.
The fact that people don’t grade from photos is all that is needed to support this.
Am I the only one who sees more in a great photo than looking at a coin in-hand?
I way prefer a great photo over in-hand viewing
I prefer a combination of both---great photos for seeing the hits and other defects, and coin in hand to eye the luster.
My interpretation is that in-person shows are not as important after the coin market survived Covid. Many more people are comfortable purchasing sight unseen now.
Is it truly "purchasing sight unseen" when the seller provides high quality pics? I remember the pre-internet, pre-third-party grading days when dealer price lists only had a verbal description and their grade of raw coins they were selling. I wasted a lot of money on insured postage returning coins that were misrepresented.
Yes, based on the long-established use of the expression. If you haven't seen/viewed the actual coin in hand before buying it, you're "purchasing sight unseen".
That doesn't mean that you don't have a much better idea what it looks like than you would without seeing images, but it's still sight-unseen.
Agree. Photos are still far from holding a coin in hand.
The fact that people don’t grade from photos is all that is needed to support this.
Am I the only one who sees more in a great photo than looking at a coin in-hand?
I way prefer a great photo over in-hand viewing
Most numismatists can probably see anything of importance on a coin that they could see in its image. On the other hand, in many, if not most cases, they can see things of importance on the coin that they can't see in its images.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@WaterSport said:
So I went to Baltimore show on Thursday and I must say after arriving at 12:15 after the show just opened - we just walked right in. I was not at any point feeling crowded like at other shows in the past despite expecting standing room only. In fact, given that there were only 2 forum reports on the show so far, I have to wonder if the pent-up demand is waning since shows are now back on routine schedules. I am anguish to hear dealer show reports and see what Charmy has to say. And no, I did not find a thing but my buddy did pick up 2 $10 gold pieces which he readily found both dealers willing to barter. Another change from earlier messages when dealers were not suppose to be budging on prices. Did anyone else attend? Your opinion please.
WS
Had expected it to be packed while attending the show on Friday - reached at 11 and quite honestly was expecting more crowd on both days when I was there. Friday floor traffic was decent. Had to go back on Saturday to collect my on site graded coins from our hosts and half the dealers did not turn up plus the crowds were sparse.
Did not buy anything either.
Am I the only one who sees more in a great photo than looking at a coin in-hand?
I way prefer a great photo over in-hand viewing
Perhaps if we knew the photos were indeed “great photos” and lighting was standardized and use of ‘unsharp mask’ or other photoshop tools was limited so we might be assured that hairlines and a cleaning haven’t been concealed.
I’m all for great photos- having spent most of my life as a professional photographer, but many sellers go way overboard to make their coins look better than they really are.
If you are a professional photographer, then you should be able to decipher the images sellers put out.
We should start a game and see if we can fool EOC!
@amwldcoin said:
I actually considered using my camera when buying coins. How many folks here have found something you missed after you take a picture?
Exactly !!!
That is the time to break out the lupe and say oh chit
@amwldcoin said:
I actually considered using my camera when buying coins. How many folks here have found something you missed after you take a picture?
Exactly !!!
That is the time to break out the lupe and say oh chit
I’m fully in agreement as to the value of photos and have indeed noticed anomalies on photos that I haven’t seen in hand as well. I’ve noticed small PVC on photos that I didn’t see in hand as well.
My only issue is with using photos only, on raw coins, from random online sources.
I’m not trying to be argumentative here. I fully acknowledge the immense value in high quality photos. My problem is with tweaked photos- which are abundant on the Bay.
Also, hairlines are easily missed in even high quality photos.
I might suggest a more in depth discussion of coins viewed by photos vs in-hand might be better suited for a dedicated thread rather than here- where the question was relevant to the health of the coin market.
I’m with you on lack of desire to add on more photoshop chops @ErrorsOnCoins!
Truth is, I’ve been shooting more and more simple scenics portraits and landscapes with my IPhone.
The quality of those things is quite remarkable and something I would have never thought possible during the early years of digital.
As for coin show attendance and vigor, I’ll let you know after this weekend, when and if I’m together enough to attend the annual PNNA show ;-).
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
I am not going to repeat the observations of all the others. I see the same or close enough. What I do know is that the price guides continue to lag behind the real market. Dealers are in the same pen as the retail customers for buying anything with sustained demand. Buying now, for a lot of material, means slim margins. There remains eager demand everywhere I look. Some buyers might miss something in auction here or there. That means you still have a buyer, but the margin will be the hurdle. If it isn't a seller's fee, it is the cost of a table, hotel, and travel for a show. Retail customers don't really care as long as you aren't the only guy selling what they want at the time. That makes selection of paramount importance for dealers who aren't just buying to fill established want lists. I will rarely stick my neck out for anything that isn't top grade, top pop, ultra-rare, or an obvious upgrade candidate, because these days you are going to be competing with full retail buyers and are going to pay full retail or higher too often to get anything good. Greysheet is only the first stop for me, as almost nothing I have bought in months has been near sheet prices. An example is a Jackie Robinson in 69 or 70. The best price I have seen lately for a 69 is over greysheet ($720) and most have asks and sales over $1k. That best price was $797 on eBay. Had I jumped in and bid it too, undoubtedly the guy who did win it would have bid it up above 1k with me. I was working on my Trade dollar die variety book and had to buy examples to image and list. People were making me pay high AU retail prices for cleaned XF, certified or raw. Again, the price guides are only preliminary guides. There remains a lot of buying activity and I do not see it declining. Maybe we will have it go down in the summer. I didn't get a Long Beach table because of that. But it could turn out to be a sustained market and not one that dies until ANA (or Summer FUN).
This is the way it has always been in a bull market. Step up to the plate or wait and gather up the crumbs on the slide!
@alefzero said:
I am not going to repeat the observations of all the others. I see the same or close enough. What I do know is that the price guides continue to lag behind the real market. Dealers are in the same pen as the retail customers for buying anything with sustained demand. Buying now, for a lot of material, means slim margins. There remains eager demand everywhere I look. Some buyers might miss something in auction here or there. That means you still have a buyer, but the margin will be the hurdle. If it isn't a seller's fee, it is the cost of a table, hotel, and travel for a show. Retail customers don't really care as long as you aren't the only guy selling what they want at the time. That makes selection of paramount importance for dealers who aren't just buying to fill established want lists. I will rarely stick my neck out for anything that isn't top grade, top pop, ultra-rare, or an obvious upgrade candidate, because these days you are going to be competing with full retail buyers and are going to pay full retail or higher too often to get anything good. Greysheet is only the first stop for me, as almost nothing I have bought in months has been near sheet prices. An example is a Jackie Robinson in 69 or 70. The best price I have seen lately for a 69 is over greysheet ($720) and most have asks and sales over $1k. That best price was $797 on eBay. Had I jumped in and bid it too, undoubtedly the guy who did win it would have bid it up above 1k with me. I was working on my Trade dollar die variety book and had to buy examples to image and list. People were making me pay high AU retail prices for cleaned XF, certified or raw. Again, the price guides are only preliminary guides. There remains a lot of buying activity and I do not see it declining. Maybe we will have it go down in the summer. I didn't get a Long Beach table because of that. But it could turn out to be a sustained market and not one that dies until ANA (or Summer FUN).
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
Well when viewing a great photo, on a large computer screen, and the ability to zoom in, you will see things that you will NEVER see in-hand.
Get a good loupe. Problem solved.
Image magnification on a high end photo is way better than with a lupe and with zero eye strain and carpal tunnel that is associated with a lupe.
Good thing your not buying 10k gold coins with that game plan. Fine hairlines can cost you thousands and not show up in a photo if the seller doesn't want to show them. Oh, and it's loupe.
My interpretation is that in-person shows are not as important after the coin market survived Covid. Many more people are comfortable purchasing sight unseen now.
Is it truly "purchasing sight unseen" when the seller provides high quality pics? I remember the pre-internet, pre-third-party grading days when dealer price lists only had a verbal description and their grade of raw coins they were selling. I wasted a lot of money on insured postage returning coins that were misrepresented.
Yes, based on the long-established use of the expression. If you haven't seen/viewed the actual coin in hand before buying it, you're "purchasing sight unseen".
That doesn't mean that you don't have a much better idea what it looks like than you would without seeing images, but it's still sight-unseen.
Agree. Photos are still far from holding a coin in hand.
The fact that people don’t grade from photos is all that is needed to support this.
Am I the only one who sees more in a great photo than looking at a coin in-hand?
I way prefer a great photo over in-hand viewing
Can't comment about error coins, but I won't buy a coin unless either I or someone I trust has physically looked at it. A rare exception to this is if I get a no questions asked 7 day return privilege from a handful of people I know well and they know what I like.
Most coins are not rare, including many expensive ones. If you're patient, you'll find one you like without getting in a bidding war or paying full retail plus for it. It took me 8 years to find a Heraldic Eagle Dollar I liked, four years re a Barber Half, and after giving up, literally stumbled onto a Coronet Head Cent and Capped Bust Half.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I thought I would add this show description from DLRC who attended the show and posted this on his weekly blog.
The Baltimore Show was a success for us at DLRC. Not because the buying was great (it was okay, but far from great), not because of the sales (again, they were ok, but not great), and not because of the attendance (it was mediocre), but because it was the closest thing to a normal Baltimore show that we’ve had in 3 years. Overall the show was average, but we’ll take average any day. As I mentioned last week the prices that were being asked by most dealers were very strong and as someone said “they are pricing for tomorrow’s market, not today’s”… and we tried to price a bit more competitively, but it does depend on what we have been paying, so I’m not going to lie and say we were MUCH cheaper…we weren’t. But the overall activity on all sides equaled out to a successful show for us.
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
@JW77 said:
I prefer a combination of both---great photos for seeing the hits and other defects, and coin in hand to eye the luster.
Yep, I need both.
TrueViews can hide some imperfections and luster is really hard to guess at.
That being said, I can pretty much nail a coin's technical grade with a photo.
For those collectors of proof coins & errors, I don't have enough experience to comment.
Hairlines aren't really as big a deal on saints.
I had Topps cards from the 1960's, 1970's, and very early 1980's. When the pandemic started I was laid off for 5 weeks before starting the "Work from Home" routine. In those 5 weeks dug thru the closest to see what was stored away to determine if I could thru anything out. Found my cards and started going thru them, checking values on my own and then got them appraised by a few different sports card sources and then sold them on my own on Craigslist in the late summer/early fall of 2020. I had no scammers bother me and had three serious responses within the first two days. I sold them on day 3 without any regrets. My 3 nephews who are high school age had absolutely no interest in. I'm not young anymore, made $ on them, and they went to a serious young collector who was thrilled.
@WaterSport said:
Let's try this again. So from what I witnessed at Baltimore is - the big crowds, no deals to be had days may be in the rear view mirror but this is just my impression. I am looking to see if anyone else feels the same or its just my imagination. I am not saying strong demand is over - heck I was blown out on a recent GC bid. But Baltimore for me was NOT what I was expecting it to be based on post concerning big crowds at other shows.
It’s two issues in my book: buyers are willing to pahigh prices for what they want. The other issue is how I gauge the market: availability. Many nice issues are difficult to get. So, I don’t think the market has cooled much, if any.
This may depend on the coins. I still see the really nice, high grade coins selling at the local shows and online and doing well but the others not doing as good as they did say back in the winter. I can't speak for all coins but noticed Buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes, Morgan and Peace dollars selling a bit lower right now. Flying Eagles were taking off and seemed to slow lately too. I see the same size crowds though at the small, local monthly shows.
Premium CAC stuff still selling for premium money. Dreck is softening... relatively speaking
Wholesale Gold is holding steady despite gold dropping. Mainly trading 10$ & 20$'s
Heritage most recent auction saw non CAC'd material off a fair amount.
A few coins on my radar the 14-d Eliasberg quartet went for less than 8k but the 13-s went for strong strong money.
An 18-d Walker in 65CAC went very strong
Gold similar story. If it had the beans it was strong. 2.5$ Indians are going strong.
I picked up an 1869 2.5$ no CAC for much less than I expected.
Was blown out of the water on some early 10's that I was nibbling on.
If coins are old holders with CAC they are going for 25% to full 100% more than guides or auction history.
I picked up an 1860-c 5$ in a rattler and with the bean and I paid very strong.
So is demand waning? My instinct is no but the answer is It depends.
That's the view from my cheap seats.
Comments
Well said. Time is the one thing you cant make more of. Its too bad there's no easy way out - handing down a baseball card collection to grand kids who never played baseball is like handing Pokeman cards out at a nursing home.
Coin shows are like baseball games. They're easier to watch from home on a video screen than to go in person. But the experience is not the same. I remember my first coin show in 1964, seeing a giant prototype of the first Kennedy Half Dollar and getting a Peace Dollar in a cardboard holder for very little. That was enough to get me hooked.
Any detail you can imagine you're seeing in a magnified photo is present in the item itself. I suppose if using a loupe is difficult for you, that would be a problem, though.
edited to add... carpal tunnel syndrome was practically invented by people using a keyboard and a mouse.
I prefer a combination of both---great photos for seeing the hits and other defects, and coin in hand to eye the luster.
Most numismatists can probably see anything of importance on a coin that they could see in its image. On the other hand, in many, if not most cases, they can see things of importance on the coin that they can't see in its images.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Had expected it to be packed while attending the show on Friday - reached at 11 and quite honestly was expecting more crowd on both days when I was there. Friday floor traffic was decent. Had to go back on Saturday to collect my on site graded coins from our hosts and half the dealers did not turn up plus the crowds were sparse.
Did not buy anything either.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
We should start a game and see if we can fool EOC!
I actually considered using my camera when buying coins. How many folks here have found something you missed after you take a picture?
Exactly !!!
That is the time to break out the lupe and say oh chit
I’m fully in agreement as to the value of photos and have indeed noticed anomalies on photos that I haven’t seen in hand as well. I’ve noticed small PVC on photos that I didn’t see in hand as well.
My only issue is with using photos only, on raw coins, from random online sources.
I’m not trying to be argumentative here. I fully acknowledge the immense value in high quality photos. My problem is with tweaked photos- which are abundant on the Bay.
Also, hairlines are easily missed in even high quality photos.
I might suggest a more in depth discussion of coins viewed by photos vs in-hand might be better suited for a dedicated thread rather than here- where the question was relevant to the health of the coin market.
I’m with you on lack of desire to add on more photoshop chops @ErrorsOnCoins!
Truth is, I’ve been shooting more and more simple scenics portraits and landscapes with my IPhone.
The quality of those things is quite remarkable and something I would have never thought possible during the early years of digital.
As for coin show attendance and vigor, I’ll let you know after this weekend, when and if I’m together enough to attend the annual PNNA show ;-).
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
I am not going to repeat the observations of all the others. I see the same or close enough. What I do know is that the price guides continue to lag behind the real market. Dealers are in the same pen as the retail customers for buying anything with sustained demand. Buying now, for a lot of material, means slim margins. There remains eager demand everywhere I look. Some buyers might miss something in auction here or there. That means you still have a buyer, but the margin will be the hurdle. If it isn't a seller's fee, it is the cost of a table, hotel, and travel for a show. Retail customers don't really care as long as you aren't the only guy selling what they want at the time. That makes selection of paramount importance for dealers who aren't just buying to fill established want lists. I will rarely stick my neck out for anything that isn't top grade, top pop, ultra-rare, or an obvious upgrade candidate, because these days you are going to be competing with full retail buyers and are going to pay full retail or higher too often to get anything good. Greysheet is only the first stop for me, as almost nothing I have bought in months has been near sheet prices. An example is a Jackie Robinson in 69 or 70. The best price I have seen lately for a 69 is over greysheet ($720) and most have asks and sales over $1k. That best price was $797 on eBay. Had I jumped in and bid it too, undoubtedly the guy who did win it would have bid it up above 1k with me. I was working on my Trade dollar die variety book and had to buy examples to image and list. People were making me pay high AU retail prices for cleaned XF, certified or raw. Again, the price guides are only preliminary guides. There remains a lot of buying activity and I do not see it declining. Maybe we will have it go down in the summer. I didn't get a Long Beach table because of that. But it could turn out to be a sustained market and not one that dies until ANA (or Summer FUN).
This is the way it has always been in a bull market. Step up to the plate or wait and gather up the crumbs on the slide!
Good thing your not buying 10k gold coins with that game plan. Fine hairlines can cost you thousands and not show up in a photo if the seller doesn't want to show them. Oh, and it's loupe.
From what I saw at the Stack's Auction today the market seems to be red hot. Branch mint gold that was auctioned was going at moon money prices.
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
Can't comment about error coins, but I won't buy a coin unless either I or someone I trust has physically looked at it. A rare exception to this is if I get a no questions asked 7 day return privilege from a handful of people I know well and they know what I like.
Most coins are not rare, including many expensive ones. If you're patient, you'll find one you like without getting in a bidding war or paying full retail plus for it. It took me 8 years to find a Heraldic Eagle Dollar I liked, four years re a Barber Half, and after giving up, literally stumbled onto a Coronet Head Cent and Capped Bust Half.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I thought I would add this show description from DLRC who attended the show and posted this on his weekly blog.
The Baltimore Show was a success for us at DLRC. Not because the buying was great (it was okay, but far from great), not because of the sales (again, they were ok, but not great), and not because of the attendance (it was mediocre), but because it was the closest thing to a normal Baltimore show that we’ve had in 3 years. Overall the show was average, but we’ll take average any day. As I mentioned last week the prices that were being asked by most dealers were very strong and as someone said “they are pricing for tomorrow’s market, not today’s”… and we tried to price a bit more competitively, but it does depend on what we have been paying, so I’m not going to lie and say we were MUCH cheaper…we weren’t. But the overall activity on all sides equaled out to a successful show for us.
Yep, I need both.
TrueViews can hide some imperfections and luster is really hard to guess at.
That being said, I can pretty much nail a coin's technical grade with a photo.
For those collectors of proof coins & errors, I don't have enough experience to comment.
Hairlines aren't really as big a deal on saints.
My Saint Set
I had Topps cards from the 1960's, 1970's, and very early 1980's. When the pandemic started I was laid off for 5 weeks before starting the "Work from Home" routine. In those 5 weeks dug thru the closest to see what was stored away to determine if I could thru anything out. Found my cards and started going thru them, checking values on my own and then got them appraised by a few different sports card sources and then sold them on my own on Craigslist in the late summer/early fall of 2020. I had no scammers bother me and had three serious responses within the first two days. I sold them on day 3 without any regrets. My 3 nephews who are high school age had absolutely no interest in. I'm not young anymore, made $ on them, and they went to a serious young collector who was thrilled.
Pocket Change Inspector
It has not cooled on the coins on which I am bidding.
But was there buying and selling?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
It’s two issues in my book: buyers are willing to pahigh prices for what they want. The other issue is how I gauge the market: availability. Many nice issues are difficult to get. So, I don’t think the market has cooled much, if any.
This may depend on the coins. I still see the really nice, high grade coins selling at the local shows and online and doing well but the others not doing as good as they did say back in the winter. I can't speak for all coins but noticed Buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes, Morgan and Peace dollars selling a bit lower right now. Flying Eagles were taking off and seemed to slow lately too. I see the same size crowds though at the small, local monthly shows.
Pocket Change Inspector
Premium CAC stuff still selling for premium money. Dreck is softening... relatively speaking
Wholesale Gold is holding steady despite gold dropping. Mainly trading 10$ & 20$'s
Heritage most recent auction saw non CAC'd material off a fair amount.
A few coins on my radar the 14-d Eliasberg quartet went for less than 8k but the 13-s went for strong strong money.
An 18-d Walker in 65CAC went very strong
Gold similar story. If it had the beans it was strong. 2.5$ Indians are going strong.
I picked up an 1869 2.5$ no CAC for much less than I expected.
Was blown out of the water on some early 10's that I was nibbling on.
If coins are old holders with CAC they are going for 25% to full 100% more than guides or auction history.
I picked up an 1860-c 5$ in a rattler and with the bean and I paid very strong.
So is demand waning? My instinct is no but the answer is It depends.
That's the view from my cheap seats.
J
Nice report
Thanks
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set