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The 2021 Cent Huge K3-to-K7 Pre-Cud Die Crack

ZoinsZoins Posts: 31,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited April 4, 2022 2:32AM in U.S. Coin Forum

This is really quite incredible. It's amazing to see such a large die crack and progression in 2021.

Anyone into these?

I found some information on these here:

Here are some photos from Robert Risi.

Stages 1 and 2:

Stages 3 and 4:

Regarding worth:

Ken Potter said:
So, what they are worth? That’s anybody’s guess and will ultimately be determined based on supply and demand. What we do know so far is that early on, a few two-piece sets of Lawson’s stages sold at $30 each privately, while an example in the later stage with counting machine damage sold on eBay for $126 two weeks ago.

However, even more dramatically, two more eBay sales took place within just the last few days of this writing (Dec. 22). A sale ending on Dec 19 garnered $800, while another example sold on Dec 22 garnered $595. They both came with an example of the earlier stage.

These two just closed.


Comments

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 17,856 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i really do try not to push prices to the moon but all things being equal in 2022, if the scarcity of both of those holds up, they should bring significantly more than that.

    we've not heard the last of those coins.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 31,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They need a dual holder

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 31,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2022 7:08PM

    @MsMorrisine said:
    They need a dual holder

    Yes, but more might be needed if one gets more die states!

  • morsecodemorsecode Posts: 25 ✭✭

    I found no progression in the early stage examples I pulled from my recent bank box. But the starting point is not the same either.

    image host

  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    i really do try not to push prices to the moon but all things being equal in 2022, if the scarcity of both of those holds up, they should bring significantly more than that.

    we've not heard the last of those coins.

    Actually there are quite a few out there.

    Prices are high because of the size of the die break.

    I have been looking to find one at wholesale but it will be awhile. I can wait.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 31,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Quite a few

    Quite a few cuds? Breaks? Both?

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,402 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My customer has found 37 of them. I have been selling them for him since jan. The only negative of his finds, is he has not found the final stage before failure with the big cud as of yet.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 31,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2022 9:39PM

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    i really do try not to push prices to the moon but all things being equal in 2022, if the scarcity of both of those holds up, they should bring significantly more than that.

    we've not heard the last of those coins.

    Actually there are quite a few out there.

    Prices are high because of the size of the die break.

    I have been looking to find one at wholesale but it will be awhile. I can wait.

    Not sure how easy it will be to find one via wholesale.

    I think people find these CRH. Perhaps you can hire some YNs to do CRH for you? :)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 31,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2022 11:01PM

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    Prices are high because of the size of the die break.

    Agree. The size is pretty insane. Is there anything close recently?

    This is one of the most exciting things I've seen in recent years with respect to die varieties.

    I think demand will keep prices up for the final stage. Quantity will be important. If it's too high, the prices will be low. If the quantity is too low, it will be too much of a niche piece. The sweet spot may be a few thousand like the 1955 DDO.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 31,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What part of the country are these being found?

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 31,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2022 3:05AM

    @MsMorrisine said:
    What part of the country are these being found?

    Ken Potter mentions that these have been found in Virginia by G.J. Lawson and Robert Risi.

    Lawson is pretty determined. I love these stories about collecting!

    Ken Potter said:
    [G.J. Lawson] found 18 of them at Harris Teeter Pharmacy. Because the cashier behind the counter was not authorized to sell or exchange any rolls of cents with him, he had to buy single packages of cheese and crackers, which after tax came out to 41 cents each, giving him a nickel and 4 cents in change each time he went back to buy more. It was the only way he could check out those cents. He believes the entire town is serviced by Brinks and that there could be many more of these errors to be found. That, of course, remains to be seen.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 42,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ken Potter has a passion in numismatics I've always enjoyed... like Bob Ross had as a painter. Thanks for sharing. Awesome die break. The search is on.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 12,518 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Stage 2 shows a chunk of the die missing. I wonder if any strikethroughs exist from that piece falling out.

  • gonzergonzer Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's referred to as a 'retained' cud in one Ebay offering. Retained on the obverse die???

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 31,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2022 2:55AM

    @gonzer said:
    It's referred to as a 'retained' cud in one Ebay offering. Retained on the obverse die???

    Good eye! Ken Potter says the following regarding "Retained Cud":

    Ken Potter said:
    A Rim-To-Rim Die Crack or what some call a Candidate-for-a-Cud or Pre-Cud-Die-Break is defined as a crack on the die face that begins at the edge of the die face and ends at the edge of the die face in a different location.
    [...]
    None of the stages I’ve seen qualify as Retained Cuds since there is not enough vertical or horizontal displacement of design for it to qualify. But that should not affect the desirability of the error at all. That die break is massive for a Lincoln cent – perhaps the largest known for the Shield cent.

    So, Ken's term for this includes:

    1. Rim-To-Rim Die Crack
    2. Candidate-for-a-Cud
    3. Pre-Cud-Die-Break
  • rickoricko Posts: 91,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now that is really surprising on modern cents. Significant fault progression. Probably never see one this far north, but will check my cents. Cheers, RickO

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 25,279 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That sure is an interesting score. Nice pics 📸 to

  • JBKJBK Posts: 12,518 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @gonzer said:
    It's referred to as a 'retained' cud in one Ebay offering. Retained on the obverse die???

    Good eye! Ken Potter says the following regarding "Retained Cud":

    Ken Potter said:
    A Rim-To-Rim Die Crack or what some call a Candidate-for-a-Cud or Pre-Cud-Die-Break is defined as a crack on the die face that begins at the edge of the die face and ends at the edge of the die face in a different location.
    [...]
    None of the stages I’ve seen qualify as Retained Cuds since there is not enough vertical or horizontal displacement of design for it to qualify. But that should not affect the desirability of the error at all. That die break is massive for a Lincoln cent – perhaps the largest known for the Shield cent.

    So, Ken's term for this includes:

    1. Rim-To-Rim Die Crack
    2. Candidate-for-a-Cud
    3. Pre-Cud-Die-Break

    I'm no expert but I would have called the later stages a retained cud.

  • 1946Hamm1946Hamm Posts: 608 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Examples 2,3,and 4 are retained cuds due to the weak looking strike on the date. Ken Potters description of a retained cud does not include the movement to cause the weak strike. The pics indicate the cud has moved down causing the weakening of the date and surrounding area. Therefore movement does not only have to north, south,east or west but can be down or sunken as this one is causing the weak strike. There are several standing liberty quarters that have the same kind of movement causing retained cuds.

    Have a good day, Gary
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 31,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2022 7:01AM

    @1946Hamm said:
    Examples 2,3,and 4 are retained cuds due to the weak looking strike on the date. Ken Potters description of a retained cud does not include the movement to cause the weak strike. The pics indicate the cud has moved down causing the weakening of the date and surrounding area. Therefore movement does not only have to north, south, east or west but can be down or sunken as this one is causing the weak strike. There are several standing liberty quarters that have the same kind of movement causing retained cuds.

    I wonder what requirement is used for displacement. Can you post some of the SLQs? It would be great if they were certified as retained cuds :)

    Ken indicates that there's not enough displacement for him to call it a retained cud, and presumably he has seen these in hand.

    J.C. Stevens and Peter Lukic use the definition of requiring displacement, but I imagine they would need to make a judgement call as well.

    J.C. Stevens and Peter Lukic said:
    we use the simplest form of what a retained cud is; a die crack that is from rim to rim and has a portion of either the field or a portion of a design element(s) contained within and has a lateral or vertical displacement.

    Ref: https://cuds-on-coins.com/retained-cuds/

  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice.



    Hoard the keys.
  • JBKJBK Posts: 12,518 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Personally, for stage 2 onward (until the final stage, assuming they exist, when the piece broke away entirely), I might call that a cud within a retained cud.

    I know that cuds are supposed to involve the rim, but that it is such a unique error.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 31,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2022 7:28AM

    This is listed in the Variety Coin Register, but I'm guessing it won't be called a retained cud there from what Ken wrote. Should someone reach out to VCR or Ken to get this listed as a retained cud?

    Ken Potter said:
    The error has been listed into the Variety Coin Register as VCR#1/RTMDC#1 and is slated for inclusion in the 6th edition of Strike It Rich With Pocket Change.

  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 5,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can feel the error collector's adrenalin flowing.
    I am not an error collector but will definitely keep an eye out for these.
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 31,710 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WAYNEAS said:
    I can feel the error collector's adrenalin flowing.
    I am not an error collector but will definitely keep an eye out for these.
    Wayne

    Agree. This is one of the most exciting circulation finds I've heard of in a very long time.

  • The_Dinosaur_ManThe_Dinosaur_Man Posts: 352 ✭✭✭✭

    Now if this can make some headline news in the mainstream media, this could really encourage a surge in collecting.

  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    i really do try not to push prices to the moon but all things being equal in 2022, if the scarcity of both of those holds up, they should bring significantly more than that.

    we've not heard the last of those coins.

    Actually there are quite a few out there.

    Prices are high because of the size of the die break.

    I have been looking to find one at wholesale but it will be awhile. I can wait.

    Not sure how easy it will be to find one via wholesale.

    I think people find these CRH. Perhaps you can hire some YNs to do CRH for you? :)

    Oh I will find one at wholesale for sure. I have time.

    I am waiting for many certified examples to hit the market and top out.

    We will see how far they fall from the top.

    I'll be there :)

  • gonzergonzer Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @seanq said:

    Second, because the Mint uses horizontal presses, large pieces of the die are less likely to fall out of the press compared to a vertically oriented die, where you have gravity helping. From the later die stages posted to this thread, it looks like the broken section did not completely separate but was pushed inward, as weakly struck portions of the date are still visible.

    Sean Reynolds

    Thanks for the clarification on die positioning Sean. I was under the assumption the the dies were still aligned vertically.

  • coinJPcoinJP Posts: 10,473 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow pretty dramatic die break for a modern!

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 31,710 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinJP said:
    Wow pretty dramatic die break for a modern!

    It’s pretty dramatic for any coin!

  • Found this> @ShannonfromNC said:

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 31,710 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great find @ShannonfromNC!

    This is one of the really exciting recent discoveries so I'm glad you found one! I love how that various die states are known for this!

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