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Overheard at a local coin show...

PedzolaPedzola Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 21, 2022 5:22AM in U.S. Coin Forum

I was walking around a local coin show yesterday and overheard a comment from a dealer that was something like this, my paraphrasing:

"I won't deal with PCGS anymore because it takes too long."

The dealer has many nice high-end coins, someone who has been in business for a long time. I was surprised to hear that.

Time is always a factor. The wait seems like a pretty common topic around here for collectors. But it must be brutal for dealers, where timing can be critical in fast moving markets, and who have money tied up and untouchable through that long wait.

If PCGS had an East Coast satellite office it would reduce shipping time / risk for ~half of submitters and speed overall processing at both sites by increasing capacity.

I'm sure you all will let me know why this is a bad idea. Thoughts?

«1

Comments

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As @airplanenut noted, the position requires specific skills and experience, not found in the general population. Tough to expand capacity with a skills limiting requirement. A business can always increase floor space, finding qualified employees is more difficult. This is not like hiring engineers that colleges turn out annually. Cheers, RickO

  • edgaredgar Posts: 886 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2022 6:11AM

    I agree with all of the sentiment expressed here. I completely understand the delay. What irritates me is that the published turn around times are often horribly inaccurate. When 40 days becomes 50 days and hasn't been fulfilled even after 75 days somethings wrong. The online submission status tracking bar is often different than what customer service sees. Often a submission phase which apparently should take 2 or 3 days hasn't been completed after a week. Something is wrong. The delay is real, and the explanations are reasonable.
    To me, management communication is more of an issue.

    (l8-)>>

  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DelawareDoons said:

    @airplanenut said:
    Most dealers carry insurance that enables them to ship with FedEx or Express mail, so shipping can be reduced to a day in each direction. Capacity at PCGS is the limiting factor. A satellite office or just more staff at their current office will have the same effect on turnaround times, but because they have a need for people with a very specific skill set, they can just go and hire a bunch more graders whenever they need them. However they ramp up capacity, it won’t be quick. It can’t be.

    It's not that hard to hire graders or other competent numismatists, it really isn't. There's plenty of folks out there that can grade well, and do other numismatic duties well.

    I don't disagree, but perhaps my point wasn't made quite the right way. There are plenty of qualified people out there, but PCGS can't just add them to their team for the reasons you mentioned, and I'm sure others, as well. Put a different way, there are some jobs where if you advertise them, there are lots of qualified candidates who are available and interested. Coin grading is already looking at a much smaller talent pool than many fields, and the grading companies can't just go out and hire whenever they please as other businesses can.

    Of course, what I don't know is how much more money PCGS would have to throw at a candidate (or many candidates) to get them to take and stay at the job, and what that would do to the business overall. I imagine PCGS makes enough money that improving efficiency for a few hundred thousand dollars wouldn't kill them. But if net they required millions more in salary, it may be too much (whether they can't afford it or perceive that it's not a good business idea is a separate question).

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @airplanenut .... Yes indeed.... I had 43 engineers in my departments, and over the years, many more. Some are more talented than others.... ;) Cheers, RickO

  • coinandcurrency242coinandcurrency242 Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭✭

    It is better to have slower turn around times than going out to hire individuals just to get waiting times down. It could damage their reputation and overall PCGS product if they hire the wrong people. Coin grading takes a particular skill set.

    Positive BST as a seller: Namvet69, Lordmarcovan, Bigjpst, Soldi, mustanggt, CoinHoader, moursund, SufinxHi, al410, JWP

  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am extremely happy where my business is and I can certainly grade most coins and authenticate error coins.

    Any TPG company would have to throw a huge pile of cash at me to even think about changing my extremely happy lifestyle <3

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,454 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ** I think being a professional grader is a lot more enjoyable in theory than in practice. **

    For sure. Especially when you likely start with Moderns, etc.

    Probably a LONG time before they let you handle the cool coins, like Reconsideration of 1804 dollars, and crossing over 1913 Liberty nickels lol!

    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are the TPG working overtime? If they aren’t they should, might be the only way they will dig out of the backlog!

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TPRC said:
    I think being a professional grader is a lot more enjoyable in theory than in practice. Can you imagine grading 500-1000 coins a day, every day, for 6 months....or a year...or 10 years. What a grind! I don't think I could do it even though I think I have the skills. I just don't thin I could do it unless I was paid a ton of money and maybe even if I was paid a ton of money.

    I am sure I will catch some crap on this, but it really isn’t any different than any other repetitive manufacturing industry. Sure they have a skill not easily duplicated but there are lots of jobs like that. Somebody has to do them, I never was one being an engineer and manager.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm curious. How does the turnaround time at NGC compare currently with PCGS?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TPRC said:
    I think being a professional grader is a lot more enjoyable in theory than in practice. Can you imagine grading 500-1000 coins a day, every day, for 6 months....or a year...or 10 years. What a grind! I don't think I could do it even though I think I have the skills. I just don't thin I could do it unless I was paid a ton of money and maybe even if I was paid a ton of money.

    This definitely comes into play. You've gotta have a feel for it, and you've gotta have goals. Grading all day with no personal goals is probably a HUGE drag. Most graders I know want to put in a few years, really hone their skills and get to finalizer level or near finalizer level, then move elsewhere for more fun work. Some stick around longer-term, but the younger guys usually move along if they don't get promoted or get big raises... But if they're good, they do often get big raises.

    @pcgscacgold said:

    @TPRC said:
    I think being a professional grader is a lot more enjoyable in theory than in practice. Can you imagine grading 500-1000 coins a day, every day, for 6 months....or a year...or 10 years. What a grind! I don't think I could do it even though I think I have the skills. I just don't thin I could do it unless I was paid a ton of money and maybe even if I was paid a ton of money.

    You don't think there would be enjoyment in having Monster Boxes of 2022 Silver Eagles placed in front of you hour after hour and you got to decide MS68/69/70. What a way to make a living.

    Newbies deal with that stuff. IE the spots I was offered didn't include grading moderns or any of that. I may have swung over to help out from time to time when my focus was slow, but the bulk (99%+) of the time I'd be doing classic US stuff.

    @Walkerguy21D said:
    ** I think being a professional grader is a lot more enjoyable in theory than in practice. **

    For sure. Especially when you likely start with Moderns, etc.

    Probably a LONG time before they let you handle the cool coins, like Reconsideration of 1804 dollars, and crossing over 1913 Liberty nickels lol!

    Again, depends on your skill level. I know guys that have walked in and handled that kinda stuff pretty quickly. When something like that comes in, usually everybody will get a look at it. It's a perk of the job, as well as a learning opportunity.

    @Herb_T said:
    Are the TPG working overtime? If they aren’t they should, might be the only way they will dig out of the backlog!

    Can't work graders overtime too much, their eyes will get tired and mistakes will get made. Not to mention that asking them to work overtime when they are salary is gonna potentially cause turnover to jump, which will just compound your issues, if you're a TPG.

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm curious. How does the turnaround time at NGC compare currently with PCGS?

    NGC turned my last Standard sub around in about 1 calendar month. PCGS received my last Regular sub on 12/27 and it's still in the grading queue... Just refreshed, yep, still in grading.

    "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 6,061 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Herb_T said:

    @TPRC said:
    I think being a professional grader is a lot more enjoyable in theory than in practice. Can you imagine grading 500-1000 coins a day, every day, for 6 months....or a year...or 10 years. What a grind! I don't think I could do it even though I think I have the skills. I just don't thin I could do it unless I was paid a ton of money and maybe even if I was paid a ton of money.

    I am sure I will catch some crap on this, but it really isn’t any different than any other repetitive manufacturing industry. Sure they have a skill not easily duplicated but there are lots of jobs like that. Somebody has to do them, I never was one being an engineer and manager.

    That’s a very fair point. Many jobs even outside manufacturing are repetitive.

    Given the situation with the labor market and a smaller potential applicant pool for grading, computer grading might finally have to take some of the load. @airplanenut made a funny joke but something like monster boxes of Eagles (and other bulk moderns) would be the perfect segment to turn over to the computers and leave the more unique coins to people.

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2022 12:18PM

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm curious. How does the turnaround time at NGC compare currently with PCGS?

    In general, I think NGC's turnaround times are worse, and certainly no better, than PCGS's.

    Tom

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TPRC said:

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm curious. How does the turnaround time at NGC compare currently with PCGS?

    In general, I think NGC's turnaround times are worse, and certainly no better than PCGS's.

    PCGS is way, way behind compared to NGC right now.

    https://www.ngccoin.com/submit/services-fees/ngc/

    https://www.pcgs.com/statistics

    "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DelawareDoons said:

    @TPRC said:

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm curious. How does the turnaround time at NGC compare currently with PCGS?

    In general, I think NGC's turnaround times are worse, and certainly no better than PCGS's.

    PCGS is way, way behind compared to NGC right now.

    https://www.ngccoin.com/submit/services-fees/ngc/

    https://www.pcgs.com/statistics

    I guess you are correct. I had been holding back on some tokens and world. World standard is still 50 days, and econ tokens are 38 days, but other times have improved, some greatly. Still, I'd rather wait.

    Tom

  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:

    @Herb_T said:

    @TPRC said:
    I think being a professional grader is a lot more enjoyable in theory than in practice. Can you imagine grading 500-1000 coins a day, every day, for 6 months....or a year...or 10 years. What a grind! I don't think I could do it even though I think I have the skills. I just don't thin I could do it unless I was paid a ton of money and maybe even if I was paid a ton of money.

    I am sure I will catch some crap on this, but it really isn’t any different than any other repetitive manufacturing industry. Sure they have a skill not easily duplicated but there are lots of jobs like that. Somebody has to do them, I never was one being an engineer and manager.

    @airplanenut made a funny joke

    I'll take it :sunglasses:

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DelawareDoons said:

    @Herb_T said:
    Are the TPG working overtime? If they aren’t they should, might be the only way they will dig out of the backlog!

    Can't work graders overtime too much, their eyes will get tired and mistakes will get made. Not to mention that asking them to work overtime when they are salary is gonna potentially cause turnover to jump, which will just compound your issues, if you're a TPG.

    The money side of things is easily dealt with. I often gave salary people that put in extra efforts discretionary bonuses. The tired eyes are a different matter. Even if you had them come in on Saturdays for 5 hours will put a dent in the backlog, Managers/GM’s need to be creative and think outside the box! To do nothing is management not doing their jobs!

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Another way to reduce the backlog it to increase their grading fees. :o;)

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • AotearoaAotearoa Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    Another way to reduce the backlog it to increase their grading fees. :o;)

    It's true. When you become your own biggest competitor (due to backlog), you're probably not charging enough. The caveat is that what sings today may not sing tomorrow.

    Smitten with DBLCs.

  • HiBuckyHiBucky Posts: 595 ✭✭✭

    I have a major show soon and figured I would have my 20 coins back by now. It has been since January 26 when they got my coins. Also why waste the time of seasoned graders grading modern coins. Why not use AE Monster box and modern proof sets and just modern coins be graded by the rookies. As they, the rookies pass their test and become seasoned they can move into the seasoned positions... I agree maybe modern coins should be sent to a separate location on the East Coast. How about an additional management fee for timely grading ... $20.00, $50.00 or $100.00 extra to make a turn in 7 days.. And Mean it .. I would pay for this when sending in coins worth thousands instead of waiting 3-4 months is just crazy... The down side is the market is hot ! People are pleased to just have their coins graded. You see these comments now directed to our host but can you imagen what these comments would look like if the market turns and coins sent out 60 days ago were worth X are now dropping like crazy and you don't have your once valuable coin in your hand. to trade or sell... Card Grading is out a year so I guess we are better off then them.......!!!!

  • stealerstealer Posts: 3,996 ✭✭✭✭

    @airplanenut said:

    @ricko said:
    As @airplanenut noted, the position requires specific skills and experience, not found in the general population. Tough to expand capacity with a skills limiting requirement. A business can always increase floor space, finding qualified employees is more difficult. This is not like hiring engineers that colleges turn out annually. Cheers, RickO

    Hold on a sec... not every engineer turned out annually is perfect. But some of us are ;)

    Most are far from it. And then there are some who are engineers AND coin graders ;)

  • edgaredgar Posts: 886 ✭✭✭✭

    .> @Aotearoa said:

    @PerryHall said:
    Another way to reduce the backlog it to increase their grading fees. :o;)

    It's true. When you become your own biggest competitor (due to backlog), you're probably not charging enough. The caveat is that what sings today may not sing tomorrow.

    I agree to a point, But little guys like me submit alot of personal keepsakes, niche collectibles, or wishful shots in the dark. Often the value if a submission doesn't exceed the cost basis. If PCGS is cultivating a customer base within that population, then higher cost/faster service tiers will only work if low cost/slower service tiers are accurate. I don't mind waiting 2,3 4 months if that is what I'm paying for up front. Management has got to know the index of how many coins will fit in a given period of time. When submissions exceed that index, they should say so (that way I'll know to wait to make my next submission.).

    (l8-)>>

  • EXOJUNKIEEXOJUNKIE Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A random thought:

    Can coin graders be trained in 2-3 months and put to work? Or is the experience of many years in the coin business indispensable? Or do the TPGs “train” new graders in the moderns/bullion room (if so, I’m glad I don’t do moderns)?

    I ask this because some luxury watch brands (e.g. Rolex, Omega) train their own watchmakers (also a specialized skill in short supply nowadays) and then obligate them under contract for a period of years to pay back their training.

    There might be some young people that would like to do this in order to break into the coin business. Is this a model the TPGs could follow?

    I'm addicted to exonumia ... it is numismatic crack!

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    USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
  • MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,363 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2022 3:43PM

    Robots.
    They take shorter smoke breaks.

    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
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  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is the downside to coin collecting being popular again. : )

    I don't think any of us want to see grading fees increased. I wonder what percentage of coins being graded today are true raw coins, "regrades," and modern? It would seem to me one option would be for third party grading companies to open direct mail satellite offices in low cost of living cities for the modern coins.

  • Farmer1961Farmer1961 Posts: 167 ✭✭✭

    While at times I've complained about PCGS and NGC slabbing cleaned or overly dipped coins as non problem coins I must say that I would rather wait for PCGS graded coins than NGC. NGC's grading is all over the place and not as consistent as PCGS.

  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @HiBucky said:
    I have a major show soon and figured I would have my 20 coins back by now. It has been since January 26 when they got my coins. Also why waste the time of seasoned graders grading modern coins. Why not use AE Monster box and modern proof sets and just modern coins be graded by the rookies. As they, the rookies pass their test and become seasoned they can move into the seasoned positions... I agree maybe modern coins should be sent to a separate location on the East Coast. How about an additional management fee for timely grading ... $20.00, $50.00 or $100.00 extra to make a turn in 7 days.. And Mean it .. I would pay for this when sending in coins worth thousands instead of waiting 3-4 months is just crazy... The down side is the market is hot ! People are pleased to just have their coins graded. You see these comments now directed to our host but can you imagen what these comments would look like if the market turns and coins sent out 60 days ago were worth X are now dropping like crazy and you don't have your once valuable coin in your hand. to trade or sell... Card Grading is out a year so I guess we are better off then them.......!!!!

    Many sports cards sent in a year or more ago have in fact dropped in value. So much so some who have submitted have just requested their cards back without being graded, thus saving the fees on valueless cardboard.

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My wife and I have 187 coins in for grading…..some 2021 Morgan’s and Peace dollars, older Morgan’s, CBH, World Coins/Medals. All with Gold Shields and photography. We had a group that was received 12/7 that went into encapsulation last week as did another submittal that was received 12/15.

    We figure to just keep submitting and they will be shipped out eventually and arrive in our mailbox in some kind regular frequency. I had submitted some coins to NGC and PCGS is still faster even though it may not seem like it. I would just tell everyone to hang in there, the coins are coming!

  • JohnBCoinsJohnBCoins Posts: 18 ✭✭✭

    @Herb_T said:
    Are the TPG working overtime? If they aren’t they should, might be the only way they will dig out of the backlog!

    Most graders are on salary, there is no incentive to work past the 8 hours for free so the company can make more money.

    John Butler
    David Lawrence Rare Coins

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    The dealer doesn’t have a lot of choices and people don’t always follow through with what they say they’re going (or not going) to do.

    There's at least one good alternative.

    thefinn
  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JohnBCoins said:

    @Herb_T said:
    Are the TPG working overtime? If they aren’t they should, might be the only way they will dig out of the backlog!

    Most graders are on salary, there is no incentive to work past the 8 hours for free so the company can make more money.


    PCGS grading room is open 7 days per week. Some of the graders are already doing 6 days or 7 days per week. There reaches a point where the extra incentives really do not matter. Money isn't everything. Sometimes you need to live your life also.

    John Butler
    David Lawrence Rare Coins

    Your two statements appear to be contradictory. Am I missing something?

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,342 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2022 7:59AM

    Imagine them folks with sports cards at PSA in the past year. Backlogged sucks.
    There's an old saying in business:

    "We are either complaining because there is too much work, or not enough."

    Service with a smile: It's a rare thing.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,342 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like your thinking . The expansion is a great idea.

  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 12,141 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have 9 orders containing 241 coins at PCGS for grading. The orders were "received" on 2-22-2022, 2-25-2022 and 3-8-2022. 8 of the 9 orders are now in "grading", while 1 of the orders [6 World Coins] remains stuck in "received".

    Last year I submitted 4 orders totaling 29 coins to PCGS for grading. They were "received" on 4-12-2021 and I received the four orders back in late May, 2021 through mid June, 2021.

    For my new 9 orders I expect that it will not be until sometime in June, 2022 before all of them are back in my possession.

  • jt88jt88 Posts: 3,024 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2022 9:32AM

    I think US coin has lots of orders. I have a US order with only one coin in grading since 1/15. That means there are still many orders ahead of it, that’s why it still sit there waiting for its turn.

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