1921 Peace Dollar with Doubled "PEACE" & Grading Challenge
C2C
Posts: 108 ✭✭✭
Hello everyone. My wife and I have a 1921 Peace Dollar that I was looking at the other day and I noticed the word PEACE on the reverse of the coin is double. I expected it was a VAM or one sort or another, but was unable to locate it. Apparently there was a former designation of VAM-2, but it has been removed as a VAM and is listed as a "Strike or Machine Doubling" by VAM World. Can anyone here tell me what that means in terms of the coin? Is it a minting error?
I'm really not asking in terms of premium increase. I'm just genuinely curious on the doubling. Please let me know what it means. Thanks.
Skills test side note, anyone want to attempt to grade this coin?
-C2C
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A nice Peace Dollar, the PEACE has machine doubling, no numismatic premium. From another site...
Mechanical doubling
This type of doubling, which is also known as strike, ejection, shelf or shift doubling, is not the result of the design on the die being doubled. Rather, this type of doubling occurs when the die strikes a planchet. If the die is not properly seated, it can move slightly or bounce during the moment of striking, creating a flat, shelf-like doubling. This effect will be different on all coins struck, so it is technically not a variety, but rather more of a striking error.
A 'doubled die' is the result of the die itself being doubled and subsequent coins produced will exhibit the same doubled feature.
Cheers, RickO
That doubling does not exist in the die itself. It is the result of the die and/or planchet shifting slightly (laterally) during the strike.
Regardless, that is well-struck 1921 Peace Dollar (better strike than average for those).
MS63.
Still a great looking coin no matter what.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
100% Machine doubling. That is a nice looking '21, I would probably hit it with some MS70
.
My grade guess is MS63, maybe 64...
Collector, occasional seller
It's well struck, so that is good no matter what. These are notoriously difficult to grade, especially from a photo. I was thinking 62 but I really don't see any wear at all, so I will also say 63. I'm curious as I just bought one myself, which I intend to submit. I believe mine is the VAM-1C. Can I have that VAM varietized at our host (for a fee, of course), or do they not do all VAMs?
Tom
I suspect some rub than is not obvious in the photos, so I'm going with AU58.
They do not recognize all VAMs.
https://www.pcgs.com/vamvarieties
This is the list of VAMs that they recognize. Ignore that it says "Morgan" at the top as it includes Peace Dollars as well. I've informed them of this oversight long ago and no one has bothered to fix it.
Also of note- this list is missing 2 of the "Elite 30" Peace VAMs, the 1921 VAM 1H and 1F, both of which have PCGS coin numbers, and are required for the Elite 30 Registry sets.
Collector, occasional seller
As stated, a great example of mechanical doubling and not an error. Nice looking dollar, My first thought from the first pics was 58. After looking at the additional photos I will go with MS63.
Thanks everyone. I'm going to give just a little longer on any grading and then I'll reveal the whole coin with label. I appreciate all of the information.
I may break out the Nikon Z6 II to try and help. I'll tell you all this, the blurring you're seeing in some if the photos is the iPhone and lighting.
I'll guess AU55
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My guess would be MS61.
So much of this depends on luster. From what I think I'm seeing, MS62 or MS63.
Keeping in mind that photos significantly limit grading capabilities, no winners on this one, except maybe my wife who owns this coin.
I appreciate all of the comments and the attempts. I'm a Morgan Dollar guy and am not as familiar with Peace Dollars. They are my wife's thing. But here comes the great reveal...
And here she is:
Absolutely notoriously difficult, especially from a photo. Just thought it would be a fun side challenge.
Congrats, I like it.
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Wow I was off quite a bit. Very nice!
Collector, occasional seller
You were the closest as you said "maybe 64"
These things are crazy hard to grade. I struggle with the 1921 more than the rest because of the high relief, but like I said, I'm the Morgan guy in the family, wife is the peace dollar lady of the house.
It is an outstanding coin though. She chose it early on in her collecting, so she didn't pick off of grade or cac. She picked it off of comparison to others. She has a habit of blindly choosing the most expensive things...
65+ Wow!
Congrats.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
In basketball, we'd say "And 1"
MS65+ CAC..
It's definitely worth the high grade..........for the strike alone.
Pete
I always wondered why is the U a V in TRUST?
Nice coin.... I forgot to add my guess as to grade when I posted. I was thinking 64.... Cheers, RickO
It's a good question. I looked this up once. Turns out, it was intentional. The Allies in WW-I were victorious over Wilhelm and the German 2nd Reich, so to mark the victory, the US Mint, authorized by the United States Congress, used a V in Trust to mark the "V"ictory. Hence, In God We TRVST.
I love, love, love history...
Nice coin and it is always worth looking for the varieties. But I know a dealer who says that if it isn't in the Redbook, he's not interested in offering premiums.
The V was not put on the Peace dollar to symbolize "Victory." In the classic Latin alphabet, V was used as both a consonant and a vowel. That's also why we use a "W" to symbolize "double-U". Our modern U didn't really make it to print until the 1600s.
When an artist is trying to imply something from the classic period, they'll sometimes use symbolism like this.
From New York City:
It is really hard to grade these from photos - and although I did not guess I would have been nowhere near that one... just crazy.
I have a 64 that looks much, much better than my 65...
but I had the 65 first or I probably wouldn’t own it!
Tragedy of that history I love so much, is that it's constantly being rewritten. I shared what I discovered on it, whether its correct, or incorrect, would probably take a US Minting worker to clarify. Regardless, two plausible answers, I'll defer since I was not there. Thanks for the photo samples and the grammar background.
I had the same issue with a 1878-CC in MS65 vs my 1878-CC in MS66. The MS65 was the clear winner with zero descenders when the grades were covered. Strike, contact marks, tone, everything was better on the MS65... I'm told by other forum members, after showing a photo of the coin, that the MS65 had possibly been "over dipped" by some dealer who knows when. They are both in PCGS holders, but as I said, the 65 has better eye appeal.
As for this peace dollar, it's wifey's and it is very nice in hand. I knew grading off of iPhone 13 Pro Max photos would be difficult. It bokeh's some areas it shouldn't, over sharpens others it shouldn't, but unless I pull out my Nikon, it's the best I readily had available.
Thank you!!! Wonderful story and it makes sense. I'm a WWII enthusiast and love war relics. Had some WWII and Korean war friends but sadly there gone now.
But the war was over in '18?
Well there are 5 more U's on the reverse of the Peace dollar so why not 5 more V's?
Same reason as the SLQ dollar, which preceded the Peace Dollar design by several years, I suppose. In 1916 it darn sure didn't signify "Victory". It's artistic.
Congrats, I like it.
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