@ReadyFireAim said:
PCGS does a much better job grading than JA and the whole gradeflation idea that CAC is based on is a scam.
"Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity."
And yet CAC is free to accuse PCGS of gradeflation & insinuate they did it for self enrichment.
Hypocritical much?
Your virtue signaling makes me want to puke.
Step back to avoid getting it on your shoes.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
Coins aren't "junk" if they don't get stickered when submitted. CAC has rendered an opinion that the coin isn't in the mid-to-upper range of the grade. Coins not stickered will sell, but at a price commensurate with what the market believes is appropriate. CAC has been very beneficial to the marketplace, though some disenchanted long-time collectors may feel otherwise. It is the market that makes the ultimate judgement on a coin.
"If a coin doesn’t receive a CAC sticker, does this mean CAC believes the coin is over-graded?
Absolutely not. There are many coins that are certified accurately for their grade"
The assumption here is that the CAC sticker indicates that the grade is correct. That is not always the case. I have a picture file full of CAC mistakes.
The coin that for me was "the last straw" was a gold piece in an MS-63+ holder with a CAC sticker. The coin was only an AU-55 to 58 with luster. It was one of those pieces which often makes MS-62.
People have said for years that a really nice AU-58 is worth Mint State money, and I agree with that. So if such coins are graded MS-61 or 62, I'm not going to complain, and I will probably buy it if I need and like it.
The trouble is the MS-63 grade doubled the price, and the dealer doubled down on that by trying to charge MORE than the "Coin Facts" price guide.
This dealer often flips coins in less than a week. This coin sat in his inventory for three months. At one point he asked for offers on the coin. I offered him Grey Sheet MS-63 bid to fill the hole because it was the last coin I needed to finish a set. Sometimes I get desperate, which not a good thing for your wallet. His response was indignant. Finally he sold the coin to another dealer at Winter FUN.
The point I'm making is that CAC is not perfect. It has too much influence over the market in my opinion. You can attack me, and say whatever you want. I've heard it all. This is my position.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
"If a coin doesn’t receive a CAC sticker, does this mean CAC believes the coin is over-graded?
Absolutely not. There are many coins that are certified accurately for their grade"
The assumption here is that the CAC sticker indicates that the grade is correct. That is not always the case. I have a picture file full of CAC mistakes.
The coin that for me was "the last straw" was a gold piece in an MS-63+ holder with a CAC sticker. The coin was only an AU-55 to 58 with luster. It was one of those pieces which often makes MS-62.
People have said for years that a really nice AU-58 is worth Mint State money, and I agree with that. So if such coins are graded MS-61 or 62, I'm not going to complain, and I will probably buy it if I need and like it.
The trouble is the MS-63 grade doubled the price, and the dealer doubled down on that by trying to charge MORE than the "Coin Facts" price guide.
This dealer often flips coins in less than a week. This coin sat in his inventory for three months. At one point he asked for offers on the coin. I offered him Grey Sheet MS-63 bid to fill the hole because it was the last coin I needed to finish a set. Sometimes I get desperate, which not a good thing for your wallet. His response was indignant. Finally he sold the coin to another dealer at Winter FUN.
The point I'm making is that CAC is not perfect. It has too much influence over the market in my opinion. You can attack me, and say whatever you want. I've heard it all. This is my position.
CAC is not perfect. PCGS is not perfect. No one is arguing that point. However, that is a little different than questioning their legitimacy (your word).
For the record, I'm not perfect either, nor are you. So, in the end, why aren't more opinions better?
"If a coin doesn’t receive a CAC sticker, does this mean CAC believes the coin is over-graded?
Absolutely not. There are many coins that are certified accurately for their grade"
The assumption here is that the CAC sticker indicates that the grade is correct. That is not always the case. I have a picture file full of CAC mistakes.
The coin that for me was "the last straw" was a gold piece in an MS-63+ holder with a CAC sticker. The coin was only an AU-55 to 58 with luster. It was one of those pieces which often makes MS-62.
People have said for years that a really nice AU-58 is worth Mint State money, and I agree with that. So if such coins are graded MS-61 or 62, I'm not going to complain, and I will probably buy it if I need and like it.
The trouble is the MS-63 grade doubled the price, and the dealer doubled down on that by trying to charge MORE than the "Coin Facts" price guide.
This dealer often flips coins in less than a week. This coin sat in his inventory for three months. At one point he asked for offers on the coin. I offered him Grey Sheet MS-63 bid to fill the hole because it was the last coin I needed to finish a set. Sometimes I get desperate, which not a good thing for your wallet. His response was indignant. Finally he sold the coin to another dealer at Winter FUN.
The point I'm making is that CAC is not perfect. It has too much influence over the market in my opinion. You can attack me, and say whatever you want. I've heard it all. This is my position.
You've posted numerous times that CAC is not perfect. Yet, I haven't see a single post by anyone, stating that it was, That's a straw man argument.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I challenge you to compare your picture file full of CAC mistakes to your file of TPG mistakes and see which is larger.
Nobody said that CAC is perfect? In fact many of us have repeatedly told you that CAC is not perfect. Perhaps that's not a truth you want to hear.
So if someone disagrees with you regarding CAC and thoughtfully expresses the reasons why, then you claim they are attacking you. After years of your negative CAC threads I'm pretty sure we all know your mind is made up and your position is crystal clear.
Yea, but CAC ultras will tell you that it’s perfect. The problem with CAC is not the company but some of their supporters.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@shish said:
I challenge you to compare your picture file full of CAC mistakes to your file of TPG mistakes and see which is larger.
Nobody said that CAC is perfect? In fact many of us have repeatedly told you that CAC is not perfect. Perhaps that's not a truth you want to hear.
So if someone disagrees with you regarding CAC and thoughtfully expresses the reasons why, then you claim they are attacking you. After years of your negative CAC threads I'm pretty sure we all know your mind is made up and your position is crystal clear.
More TPG mistakes that CAC mistakes? That goes without saying. CAC gets it right we’ll over 90% of the time. But all they have do is say “yes” or “no” which is a lot easier than offering a full-blown grading service.
As for attacks, I guess you didn’t bother to read the endless personal attacks from a well known dealer on this forum I had to endure.
In the end, why is my opinion so important to you? I am just one collector. CAC has taken charge of a significant portion of the high end coin market. That leaves the collector with the “play” or “pass” option. My move has been to pass, mostly.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Ive seen coins with cac stickers that i wonder what they were thinking, and I have also seen coins that wouldnt sticker that I truly liked and thought would. but for the most part I agree with most of the cac stickered coins I see. Most of the coins I owned were cac, but not all, and some I have I still like, that dont. But In this market, CAC is widely accepted, respected and brings premiums compared to NON CAC coins.
By the way, all the negative things you hear people say about CAC, people said those about PCGS/NGC too at one point. Hell you can still find people that say it.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@BillJones said:
Yea, but CAC ultras will tell you that it’s perfect. The problem with CAC is not the company but some of their supporters.
Admittedly, I’m a “CAC Ultra”. I’m a CAC supporter, so as you say, maybe I’m the problem. But I’ve never said CAC is perfect, and I fully agree with Mark’s comment that we haven’t read from a CAC supporter that CAC is perfect. That is probably your misperception!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@BillJones said:
Yea, but CAC ultras will tell you that it’s perfect. The problem with CAC is not the company but some of their supporters.
Admittedly, I’m a “CAC Ultra”. I’m a CAC supporter, so as you say, maybe I’m the problem. But I’ve never said CAC is perfect, and I fully agree with Mark’s comment that we haven’t read from a CAC supporter that CAC is perfect. That is probably your misperception!
Steve
And it is worth reminding people: if it is PCGS and CAC, it has two opinions that agree. So, if I look at a PCGS/CAC coin and disagree, I should start with a little humility and ask myself what I might be missing before I immediately assume that BOTH PCGS and CAC got it wrong. I mean, I love myself and I trust myself, but if my opinion disagrees with the consensus of SIX professionals, it is quite possible that either I'm wrong on the merits or I misunderstand the market.
Now, if it fails to CAC, it could just be CAC that got it wrong. So, that's only one opinion I'm disagreeing with. But for a coin that has a sticker, I think the odds are pretty high that it is correct.
@amwldcoin said:
I see the soprano and tenor have showed up for the choir! Where's the Bass and the Baritone?
I see one of those dealers that hates CAC because it evens the playing field between dealers and customers has showed up, where's the rest of the dinos at?
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
The thread title is misleading. There ain't no secrets. Graders and grading are subjective. Just so happens one( grader) has to oversee them all, and approve only 2.
Has nothing to do with that. It's all about adding costs to being a collector and cheapening the PCGS Brand IMHO. While I occasionally have some crap coins for sale(usually bought to get the good ones), I'm sure the majority here will I agree I carry some pretty nice coins that will never see a football while I own it unless they already have it when I buy it.
@amwldcoin said:
I see the soprano and tenor have showed up for the choir! Where's the Bass and the Baritone?
I see one of those dealers that hates CAC because it evens the playing field between dealers and customers has showed up, where's the rest of the dinos at?
@amwldcoin said:
Has nothing to do with that. It's all about adding costs to being a collector and cheapening the PCGS Brand IMHO. While I occasionally have some crap coins for sale(usually bought to get the good ones), I'm sure the majority here will I agree I carry some pretty nice coins that will never see a football while I own it unless they already have it when I buy it.
@amwldcoin said:
I see the soprano and tenor have showed up for the choir! Where's the Bass and the Baritone?
I see one of those dealers that hates CAC because it evens the playing field between dealers and customers has showed up, where's the rest of the dinos at?
Hmmm....I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. You won't CAC your coins. We know that. PCGS clearly doesn't feel it cheapens their brand so why should you?
At least PCGS is free so it doesn't add any cost to the collector....er, not.
You could do collectors a favor and only sell raw coins. That would really save the collector some money.
@amwldcoin said:
Has nothing to do with that. It's all about adding costs to being a collector and cheapening the PCGS Brand IMHO. While I occasionally have some crap coins for sale(usually bought to get the good ones), I'm sure the majority here will I agree I carry some pretty nice coins that will never see a football while I own it unless they already have it when I buy it.
@amwldcoin said:
I see the soprano and tenor have showed up for the choir! Where's the Bass and the Baritone?
I see one of those dealers that hates CAC because it evens the playing field between dealers and customers has showed up, where's the rest of the dinos at?
Hmmm....I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. You won't CAC your coins. We know that. PCGS clearly doesn't feel it cheapens their brand so why should you?
At least PCGS is free so it doesn't add any cost to the collector....er, not.
You could do collectors a favor and only sell raw coins. That would really save the collector some money.
I'm doing exactly just that with my Barbers! You would be surprised how many raw Barbers I have sold in the past year that I would normally have graded. I've also cracked quite a few for customers. I have 3 active Customers now that are buying nice mid-grades and freeing them from their tomb for a Dansco or Library of Coins album if I don't have a raw one!
Edit to answer the PCGS notion. If I told you my thoughts and conspiracy theories I would be hit with the ban hammer so hard you would have to go to China to find me! Not so long ago PCGS did feel that way and forbid these CAC threads for that very reason.
@jmlanzaf said:
CAC does NOT NOT NOT accuse anyone of grade inflation. CAC says right on their site that if a coin fails to receive a sticker that does not indicate that it is overgraded. It just means that it is in the lower third of the grade range. It COULD be overgraded, but they do not make that implication.
As well, CAC identifies coins that could be undergraded. Where does that fit into the hysterics about gradeflation?
CAC has been around for a long time. It's hard to believe that people still don't understand how they work, but the only other explanation I can think of for some of the comments about their business is- well...
I agree with you "More TPG mistakes that CAC mistakes? That goes without saying. CAC gets it right well over 90% of the time."
If a well known dealer on this forum posted endless personal attacks on you then shame on them. I too have endured such attacks so I know the feeling. I responded by presenting my side, then I moved on.
Honestly your opinion is not important to me, I too am just one collector. What is important is correcting the many inaccuracies you have presented. Perhaps even more important is sharing information that will help many other collectors improve their grading skills and their collections.
@fathom said:
Yes the OP does not make sense. It has to be tongue in cheek.
Shame on you professor for educating me?
In humanity disagreements are the norm, not the exception.
I hear that the OP.... was looking at a number of online auctions lately and found fault with almost every coin. He digressed back to the days, when he knew less than he does today about coins (only slightly) and would have placed quite a number of bids. Since sending the coins to a 2nd opinion service he has been educated to at least look at what he is buying (a novelty I know). In the OPost there was an attempt at a bit of humor with no malice towards anyone but himself. If anything he was praising all grading companies and some dealers who are venturing an opinion that a perspective buyer might find useful? Since money is involved the irony for the OP is how many items does he buy without an inspection? Now....1 less.
Comments
Step back to avoid getting it on your shoes.
Coins aren't "junk" if they don't get stickered when submitted. CAC has rendered an opinion that the coin isn't in the mid-to-upper range of the grade. Coins not stickered will sell, but at a price commensurate with what the market believes is appropriate. CAC has been very beneficial to the marketplace, though some disenchanted long-time collectors may feel otherwise. It is the market that makes the ultimate judgement on a coin.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Absolutely not. There are many coins that are certified accurately for their grade"
The assumption here is that the CAC sticker indicates that the grade is correct. That is not always the case. I have a picture file full of CAC mistakes.
The coin that for me was "the last straw" was a gold piece in an MS-63+ holder with a CAC sticker. The coin was only an AU-55 to 58 with luster. It was one of those pieces which often makes MS-62.
People have said for years that a really nice AU-58 is worth Mint State money, and I agree with that. So if such coins are graded MS-61 or 62, I'm not going to complain, and I will probably buy it if I need and like it.
The trouble is the MS-63 grade doubled the price, and the dealer doubled down on that by trying to charge MORE than the "Coin Facts" price guide.
This dealer often flips coins in less than a week. This coin sat in his inventory for three months. At one point he asked for offers on the coin. I offered him Grey Sheet MS-63 bid to fill the hole because it was the last coin I needed to finish a set. Sometimes I get desperate, which not a good thing for your wallet. His response was indignant. Finally he sold the coin to another dealer at Winter FUN.
The point I'm making is that CAC is not perfect. It has too much influence over the market in my opinion. You can attack me, and say whatever you want. I've heard it all. This is my position.
CAC is not perfect. PCGS is not perfect. No one is arguing that point. However, that is a little different than questioning their legitimacy (your word).
For the record, I'm not perfect either, nor are you. So, in the end, why aren't more opinions better?
You've posted numerous times that CAC is not perfect. Yet, I haven't see a single post by anyone, stating that it was, That's a straw man argument.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I challenge you to compare your picture file full of CAC mistakes to your file of TPG mistakes and see which is larger.
Nobody said that CAC is perfect? In fact many of us have repeatedly told you that CAC is not perfect. Perhaps that's not a truth you want to hear.
So if someone disagrees with you regarding CAC and thoughtfully expresses the reasons why, then you claim they are attacking you. After years of your negative CAC threads I'm pretty sure we all know your mind is made up and your position is crystal clear.
Yea, but CAC ultras will tell you that it’s perfect. The problem with CAC is not the company but some of their supporters.
I will never understand how someone would let anyone else's opinion of anything take the joy out of this hobby for them.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
More TPG mistakes that CAC mistakes? That goes without saying. CAC gets it right we’ll over 90% of the time. But all they have do is say “yes” or “no” which is a lot easier than offering a full-blown grading service.
As for attacks, I guess you didn’t bother to read the endless personal attacks from a well known dealer on this forum I had to endure.
In the end, why is my opinion so important to you? I am just one collector. CAC has taken charge of a significant portion of the high end coin market. That leaves the collector with the “play” or “pass” option. My move has been to pass, mostly.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Delete
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Ive seen coins with cac stickers that i wonder what they were thinking, and I have also seen coins that wouldnt sticker that I truly liked and thought would. but for the most part I agree with most of the cac stickered coins I see. Most of the coins I owned were cac, but not all, and some I have I still like, that dont. But In this market, CAC is widely accepted, respected and brings premiums compared to NON CAC coins.
Message to self.....
DO NOT USE THE LETTERS CAC IN ANY FUTURE POSTS.
I haven't read or heard a single comment, anywhere, that they're perfect. Maybe you're hearing something that's not actually being said.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
By the way, all the negative things you hear people say about CAC, people said those about PCGS/NGC too at one point. Hell you can still find people that say it.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Admittedly, I’m a “CAC Ultra”. I’m a CAC supporter, so as you say, maybe I’m the problem. But I’ve never said CAC is perfect, and I fully agree with Mark’s comment that we haven’t read from a CAC supporter that CAC is perfect. That is probably your misperception!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
And it is worth reminding people: if it is PCGS and CAC, it has two opinions that agree. So, if I look at a PCGS/CAC coin and disagree, I should start with a little humility and ask myself what I might be missing before I immediately assume that BOTH PCGS and CAC got it wrong. I mean, I love myself and I trust myself, but if my opinion disagrees with the consensus of SIX professionals, it is quite possible that either I'm wrong on the merits or I misunderstand the market.
Now, if it fails to CAC, it could just be CAC that got it wrong. So, that's only one opinion I'm disagreeing with. But for a coin that has a sticker, I think the odds are pretty high that it is correct.
I see the soprano and tenor have showed up for the choir! Where's the Bass and the Baritone?
I see one of those dealers that hates CAC because it evens the playing field between dealers and customers has showed up, where's the rest of the dinos at?
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
The thread title is misleading. There ain't no secrets. Graders and grading are subjective. Just so happens one( grader) has to oversee them all, and approve only 2.
Has nothing to do with that. It's all about adding costs to being a collector and cheapening the PCGS Brand IMHO. While I occasionally have some crap coins for sale(usually bought to get the good ones), I'm sure the majority here will I agree I carry some pretty nice coins that will never see a football while I own it unless they already have it when I buy it.
Hmmm....I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. You won't CAC your coins. We know that. PCGS clearly doesn't feel it cheapens their brand so why should you?
At least PCGS is free so it doesn't add any cost to the collector....er, not.
You could do collectors a favor and only sell raw coins. That would really save the collector some money.
I'm doing exactly just that with my Barbers! You would be surprised how many raw Barbers I have sold in the past year that I would normally have graded. I've also cracked quite a few for customers. I have 3 active Customers now that are buying nice mid-grades and freeing them from their tomb for a Dansco or Library of Coins album if I don't have a raw one!
Edit to answer the PCGS notion. If I told you my thoughts and conspiracy theories I would be hit with the ban hammer so hard you would have to go to China to find me! Not so long ago PCGS did feel that way and forbid these CAC threads for that very reason.
Yes the OP does not make sense. It has to be tongue in cheek.
Shame on you professor for educating me?
In humanity disagreements are the norm, not the exception.
As well, CAC identifies coins that could be undergraded. Where does that fit into the hysterics about gradeflation?
CAC has been around for a long time. It's hard to believe that people still don't understand how they work, but the only other explanation I can think of for some of the comments about their business is- well...
I agree with you "More TPG mistakes that CAC mistakes? That goes without saying. CAC gets it right well over 90% of the time."
If a well known dealer on this forum posted endless personal attacks on you then shame on them. I too have endured such attacks so I know the feeling. I responded by presenting my side, then I moved on.
Honestly your opinion is not important to me, I too am just one collector. What is important is correcting the many inaccuracies you have presented. Perhaps even more important is sharing information that will help many other collectors improve their grading skills and their collections.
I hear that the OP.... was looking at a number of online auctions lately and found fault with almost every coin. He digressed back to the days, when he knew less than he does today about coins (only slightly) and would have placed quite a number of bids. Since sending the coins to a 2nd opinion service he has been educated to at least look at what he is buying (a novelty I know). In the OPost there was an attempt at a bit of humor with no malice towards anyone but himself. If anything he was praising all grading companies and some dealers who are venturing an opinion that a perspective buyer might find useful? Since money is involved the irony for the OP is how many items does he buy without an inspection? Now....1 less.
Signed the shrink (alias the wife)
.
.
Brett didn't feel it cheapened the brand.
BTW...Where is Brett?
My Saint Set