I'm annoyed with CAC so I'll let you in on a secret
jkrk
Posts: 987 ✭✭✭✭✭
I've been sending coins to CAC somewhat regularly over the past five years much to my detriment.
Before CAC I would buy coins and never really looked at the coin. I needed glasses + magnification , etc so who could see the details anyway?
After receiving enough rejections (no stickers) I now am looking at each coin closely seeing ugly marks, scratches, non clean fields and I am rejecting most of the coins I look at. Some might say I have benefitted from CAC's grading. To me, ignorance was bliss but I can't return to my uneducated self. They gave me the Apple and I took a bite.
I will admit I was happier in the old days when I bought coins without looking at them too closely. When I looked at the DE's without glasses they all looked like gems.
Now I see they're not and I have no one to blame except for CAC.
As Flip Wilson used to say, "the devil made me do it".
Comments
Just what we needed… another CAC thread! I’m sure hoping this one is meant to sarcasm/satire unless I’m just misreading it.
But you couldn't resist opening and reading the thread, even though CAC was in the thread title.
Sometimes you just feel like CACing and nothing is going to stop you
CAC has taken most of the joy out of collecting U.S. coins for me. Unless my collection is approved by one man, it’s all junk. I would have to spend thousands of dollars and take risks that my coins won’t get to his office to get my coins shipped to him so that he can accept or reject them. When he gets into the REAL coin certification business with his own slabs, then I’ll take his company seriously. But that will never happen.
But there is an silver lining. I spent a most enjoyable afternoon today researching British and imperial Roman coins. As long as CAC leaves those alone, I can enjoy the the hobby. Most collectors, who are active in those areas, prefer their coins raw. So the foreign and ancient coin CAC market will be limited.
Which is it, then? Can't be both.
I have no idea what your question is. If the coin is approved by CAC, then there are loads of collectors who want to buy it. The coins without the stickers are junk to those collectors.
If he is that perfect as a grader, than why doesn’t he start a full service company with his own slabs? What’s stopping him? Can any CAC fans explain that? It should be a slam dunk.
It can be both joe argument.
I’m glad the poster is now looking closer at the coins. Think of it as finding gem gems. They’ll all be twice as nice.
You just need one of these:
Then sell to the collectors who think like you do. They'll buy your coins, right?
Who says he's that perfect as a grader? All he's doing is rendering a second opinion on already graded coins. Use his service or not- it's up to you. But that's the easy part- other people get to decide whether or not to use his service, too. That's going to be harder, I guess.
Grading coins, determining if they are genuine and looking at whether or not a coin is “market acceptable” whether we like it or not, is hard work. Saying “yes” or “no” is pretty easy. Collectors, investors and dealers do it at every show, auction or Internet viewing. You can say “yes,” and if you are wrong, the consequences are limited.
That’s the difference between a full service grading service and CAC.
So you don't understand what CAC does. Got it.
How many grading services does he have to start?
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
My advice: Look at the coin prior to purchasing.
Dave
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lol, no i think that is the reason for the thread.
it is nothing more than just a finer line of delineation of the "condition" of mostly classic coins. now i think about it, cac stickers on 67, 68, 69 and 70s modern coins, is a little silly.
The coin market is hot.
Unload the second and third tier stuff while you can.
Probably true.
One more to make himself legitimate given the huge influence he has on the market now.
If he has such a huge influence on the market now, it appears he is legitimate.
So it's more than just saying “yes” or “no”?
Somebody should tell Bill.
wow, emotions are strong when CAC is the subject matter. I would just like to thank the jkrk for the post. It was a funny read. Even though I assume the OP was truthful about how CAC impacted his view of coins, I enjoyed the sarcasm and humor that was embedded in the post.
Thanks for a good laugh!
Spoken by a guy who has probably put many of his eggs in the CAC basket.
it appears that his marketing campaign has been highly successful.
i don't THINK that is in response to me but i'll say i've never owned or submitted a cac coin tho i do have a membership from long ago. i have nothing against them. there will ALWAYS be a separation of the classes, in all things. people, art, education etc etc. one doesn't have to like it but one needs accept it cuz it ain't going anywhere. so officially i am not offended by cac, the threads about them or the quote, in case i was included? and here is a classic CU emoji.
Don't own any CAC stickered coins and never submitted any coins to CAC. Not that many eggs.
And this is a problem... because?
When a scarce AU58+ capped bust half dollar (just 3% of all AU58's graded) fails to earn even a green sticker -- calling it a "C" coin, in effect -- something is wrong somewhere.
Lance.
Bill - Oh, so JA and CAC are not legitimate? While we both agree that’s your opinion, the phenomenal growth of CAC over the last few years indicates “The Market” strongly disagrees with you regarding legitimacy. PCGS now has CAC only Registry sets, NGC gives extra Registry points for coins with CAC’s, the major auction houses list CAC retail values in their lot listings, the Grey Sheet has a standalone CAC pricing publication, and most importantly, in an unbiased way, non-expert collectors have a better shot at buying coins that are solid for the grade and have not had their surfaces messed with. When the time comes to sell for collectors with CAC coins (or their heirs), thanks to CAC they have a greater chance of receiving fair value (and those coins tend to sell quicker too).
It’s OK not to buy coins that merit CAC stickers. But saying they are not legitimate? I respectfully disagree!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
No matter how much you might dislike CAC’s impact on portions of the market, implying or saying that it isn’t “legitimate” is quite the slam. To me, it also appears to be against forum rules and potentially libelous.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What if CU bought CAC?
I respect @BillJones decision not to use CAC, I realize that sometimes it's difficult for us older numismatists to embrace change. However, it's unfortunate that he chooses to continue venting his frustrations with CAC, implying they are not legitimate, "One more to make himself legitimate given the huge influence he has on the market now." Wake up and accept the fact that CAC has been widely accepted by the US coin market.
"CAC has taken most of the joy out of collecting U.S. coins for me." This is really sad, but I'm glad he has found a silver lining and enjoys researching British and imperial Roman coins.
I don't understand why a man of his intelligence makes a statement like "Unless my collection is approved by one man, it’s all junk." Really junk? I believe this is an exaggeration based more on fear than reality. I will say that currently many collectors prefer CAC coins and CAC coins are realizing strong prices compared to non-CAC coins. However, that does not make non-CAC coins junk.
Conversely the following statement contains two litigate concerns. "I would have to spend thousands of dollars and take risks that my coins won’t get to his office to get my coins shipped to him so that he can accept or reject them."
May I suggest some options, first identify the premium quality examples in your collection. Just based on the coins that Bill has posted I would suggest that if he spent the thousands of dollars required to submitted his coins to CAC he might actually recover significantly more than he spent when his collection is sold. In addition, he could minimize the real risk of shipping loss using insurance or by hand carrying his coins to and from CAC.
"When he gets into the REAL coin certification business with his own slabs, then I’ll take his company seriously. But that will never happen." Be careful what you wish for and never say never.
If he starts slabbing coins, he'll have to guarantee the grade and authenticity of every coin he slabs. With stickers, he can make a mistake and the company that slabbed the coin he stickered will have the financial liability.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Fortunately the grading companies have a written grade and authenticity guarantee. Although CAC does not offer these written guarantees they do have some of the most experienced graders in numismatics. I know from first hand experience that JA stands behind his product.
Or how many grading companies does he have to get tossed out of.
My Saint Set
That's despicable. He hasn't been tossed out of any grading companies and nothing even remotely close to that occurred. That's a second potentially libelous post someone has made in this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
...
It is possible that something is wrong with the coin. Are you suggesting there are no lightly cleaned coins that accidentally made it into a straight graded holder when they shouldn't?
These attacks are ridiculous. I don't know anyone who doesn't think that JA is a knowledgeable and honorable man. Even if they dislike CAC, they should be able to respect the man behind it.
PCGS does a much better job grading than JA and the whole gradeflation idea that CAC is based on is a scam.
My Saint Set
If CAC has taken the joy out of collecting US coins for you and you dont currently take his company "seriously", then why did you apply to participate and post on the CAC forum? Why would you want to be involved with the very company you allege has taken the joy out of your US coin collecting?
I've met some people that were against CAC, as it made cherrypicking the nicest coins at a lower price more difficult. One client in particular was quite critical of CAC on message boards, and then we received their consignment, which had selected to submit their coins to CAC prior to listing in auction.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
You should have taken the blue pill
Does the CAC Forum have discussions about coins that don't involve CAC or JA?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yep, they often involve parking lots.
Yes, they do actually. They asked me to sign up over there, and I have posted some historical essays. Most of the posts concern CAC, which is really consistent with the rest of the market.
You see it at the FUN seminars. If you have the topic, "How to make money in coins" you will fill the room. If you talk about history or provide background information about the coins people are collecting, you might fill 20% of the seats.
I honestly think the door is opening for a new grading service. It's time to start grading US coins like NGC grades ancients.
I wish PCGS would go back to poofing all these CAC threads, after all the CACer's have their own forum now!
Some of us are tired of having it crammed down our throats!
"Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity."
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Bill's posts about coin history on the CAC Forum and his talk at Winter FUN were top notch. Bill's numismatic knowledge, as well as his grading skills, are far superior to mine! Yet we do have this honest disagreement about the legitimacy of CAC.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
And yet CAC is free to accuse PCGS of gradeflation & insinuate they did it for self enrichment.
Hypocritical much?
Your virtue signaling makes me want to puke.
My Saint Set
CAC doesn't post here and PCGS has chosen to add CAC coins to their registry set options.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Okay.
I admit that learning how to adequately examine a coin is a journey worth undertaking. Requires extensive knowledge and patience, at the least. Peace Roy
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CAC does NOT NOT NOT accuse anyone of grade inflation. CAC says right on their site that if a coin fails to receive a sticker that does not indicate that it is overgraded. It just means that it is in the lower third of the grade range. It COULD be overgraded, but they do not make that implication.
So your libel cannot even use truth as a defense.
Copied from the CAC FAQs:
"If a coin doesn’t receive a CAC sticker, does this mean CAC believes the coin is over-graded?
Absolutely not. There are many coins that are certified accurately for their grade. Unfortunately, it is an inescapable reality that many are at the lower end of the quality range for the assigned grade. CAC’s rejection of a coin does not necessarily mean that CAC believes the coin has been over-graded. It simply means that there are other coins with CAC stickers that are of higher quality for the grade. CAC will eventually reject tens of thousands of accurately graded coins. Many of these rejected coins will be acceptable to numerous dealers and collectors and will continue to be available in the marketplace. For quality-conscious collectors and dealers, a coin with a CAC sticker will have significant meaning."
As has been said a thousand times, Buy the coin not the holder. If OP can't/won't try to determine the quality of the coins he buys, that failure cannot be the fault of anyone else. CAC provides a valuable service, proved by the added value of beaned coins. That's it.
Don't like the results, save the costs and enjoy what you collected without submitting them to CAC.
Easy game.