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CROSSOVER QUALIFICATIONS

I would like to get some feedback concerning crossover experiences with NGC. Recently my daughter submitted five (5) PCGS graded coins in error to NGC for crossover due to chipped holders. These included a 1890-S MS65+, 1891-S MS65 CAC,1892-O MS65, 1894-S MS64 and a 1895-S MS64.
All failed to crossover except the 1895-S. Even the 1891-S CAC did not cross. I can assure you these were all solid in their grade. To say the least I was shocked, and it has led me to question whether NCG is currently under-grading and undervaluing coins.
I would have understood if a couple had not made the cross, but the CAC? That would seem to indicate that the standard at NGC is above the CAC standard. Can anyone clarify or share the NGC standard? NGC simply refused to comment and was quite rude in the process.

Comments

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,390 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We need to see high resolution pics of these coins to help you. Also, just because CAC and a major grading service disagrees on the grade of a coin doesn't always mean that CAC is right and the major grading service is wrong.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • moursundmoursund Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Surprising and interesting results. Although 5 coins is a small sample, I would expect PCGS coins to cross into NGC slabs "most of the time".

    100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 B) . Transactions with WilliamF, Relaxn, LukeMarshal, jclovescoins, braddick, JWP, Weather11am, Fairlaneman, Dscoins, lordmarcovan, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, JimW. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
  • I understand that all grading is somewhat subjective and that no service is actually the final authority. Also, that you may get different results from grader to grader. Just wondering if anyone else had a similar experience. Especially since it is my personal belief that the 1895-S was crossed simply due to the value of the coin to increase their number graded. NGC has graded less than 25 coins in a higher grade for that year and mint, and only a small percentage in comparison to PCGS.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @moursund said:
    Surprising and interesting results. Although 5 coins is a small sample, I would expect PCGS coins to cross into NGC slabs "most of the time".

    I would expect NGC to cross to PCGS "most of the time" also. HOWEVER, it does depend on the series as well as the coins themselves. You also have coins that have turned in holders and other such things.

    In my experience, NGC's dollar standard is quite strict.

  • Surprising indeed! It has been my experience that the cross is usually closer to 80%, and it has been more difficult to cross an NCG coin to PCGS than vise versa.

  • The holder was chipped and my daughter was submitting some moderns to NCG, thought she would throw those in as a way to reholder. Needless to say I had a cow!

  • They have since been submitted back to PCGS for reholder, including the 1895-S. It was actually Gold Shield/True View. It was a real mess.

  • To explain, all of the coins in question are being submitted to CAC in the near future with about 40 other coins and needed new holders, The 1891-S will be included for resubmission and a new sticker.
    I know you guys watch the auctions, and I believe the trend with a premium for CAC coins will continue. Over the past two years, CAC coins have gained a lot of ground in the market. Well worth the cost of submission with key-date coins. Two years ago I would not have paid an extra dime for a CAC. Hard to say that today.

  • kruegerkrueger Posts: 805 ✭✭✭

    "NGC Has different standards then PCGS" A quote from David Camarie at NGC
    What the differences are is any one's guess as I have seen no explanations of the differences.
    I have heard it said that NGC grades are 1/2 to one point higher than PCGS grades.
    Neither service with new graders being added I believe do not like to grade thru plastic
    I believe there is some prejudice both ways about a competitors coins grades.
    Lately all my crossover submittals both ways failed and we're DNC'd 90%
    Cracked several , resubmitted and all got the grade as if they crossed. I guess my eyes did not deceive me.
    I will not waist money again on a losing odds vegas type game. Crack them out make them grade it.
    If it's not the grade you think it should be resubmit for a regrade. Better use of your money if you don't care to
    To continue increasing the cost of your coin.

    My own opinion is PCGS coins have better eye appeal generally as they seem to like clean surfaces.
    Heavily toned coins get better grades at NGC. Nothing is 100% here. There is the variable of the grader you get.
    Pcgs has always been better at publishing their standards for U.S. Coins. Books, online, and grading classes online.
    And inperson. I have all the books and taken all the classes. NGC is far behind here.
    NGC in my opinion is much better on varieties. I have much trouble with PCGS on my variety submittals even when I have examples previously slabbed by them and compare before submitting along with reference catalog photos!. Too much effort to argue with them over and over. Not sure what they want anymore.

    Others may have different experiences or opinions. I would like to hear.

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    CACS is just another mans opinion. Just because they think the coin is worthy of a sticker doesn't necessarily mean that another professional grader agrees.

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,599 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wonder what the NGC board would say about your question? Might think about posting your question there.

    Doubtful that many here choose to crossover their PCGS coins to NGC.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • kruegerkrueger Posts: 805 ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2022 4:43PM

    The only reason for me to cross from PCGS to NGC is to add to MY one NGC registry set
    Found a PCGS 66 and needed it in an NGC holder, had to Crack it out and resubmit to get the grade of 66
    The original crossover submittal was DNC. Original cost was $1300. , swallowed hard when I cracked it.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,014 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Randallj said:
    I understand that all grading is somewhat subjective and that no service is actually the final authority. Also, that you may get different results from grader to grader. Just wondering if anyone else had a similar experience. Especially since it is my personal belief that the 1895-S was crossed simply due to the value of the coin to increase their number graded. NGC has graded less than 25 coins in a higher grade for that year and mint, and only a small percentage in comparison to PCGS.

    NGC wouldn’t have crossed the 1895-S dollar for the reason you speculated.

    In a subsequent post, you wrote:
    “They have since been submitted back to PCGS for reholder, including the 1895-S. It was actually Gold Shield/True View. It was a real mess.”

    How could you send it back to PCGS for reholdering if it crossed to an NGC holder?

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2022 9:03PM

    @krueger said:
    The only reason for me to cross from PCGS to NGC is to add to MY one NGC registry set
    Found a PCGS 66 and needed it in an NGC holder, had to Crack it out and resubmit to get the grade of 66
    The original crossover submittal was DNC. Original cost was $1300. , swallowed hard when I cracked it.

    Several years ago NGC chose to allow coins graded by PCGS in their Registry sets, and that’s still true. There was no need to spend the money to first try the crossover, and then to crack it out of the presumably nice PCGS holder to get it graded by NGC. The NGC Registry points are the same for coins graded by PCGS!

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Actually, several years ago NGC chose to deny PCGS coins from their registry sets after many years of allowing them. There was some brouhaha. NGC then did a reversal and began accepting PCGS coins again, but provided a special filter that allowed collectors to choose to compete with only NGC coins or to compete with coins from both TPG's.
    Lance.

  • To clarify, I spoke with PCGS over the phone, resubmitted the 1895-S as a crossover back to PCGS with all the documentation.

  • Personally I have never submitted a coin to cross. Never had a reason to do that and see it as a waste of money. I have registry sets including a One Per Date NGC set of Morgans that's over 90% NGC coins and holds a top 30 spot. I keep it private most of the time and make it a competition set whenever I upgrade just to see where it stands. Never considered the possibility of an award as the awards that really count goes to folks have, and spend, the big bucks.
    Posted this topic just to see if everyone else got the same results with the crossover submissions, and what I am hearing the answer is, yes. I appreciate the input, and as for myself, will not consider a cross again unless the coin is cracked and graded raw. I would have to agree it's the way to go. However, it is a shame that a collector has to be caught up in the prejudice between competitors. It's difficult not to have some hard feelings when they play with your money, and more so, the things which you love.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,473 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Rightly on wrongly, my view of crossovers is that you have two strikes against you if you submit the coin in the other guy's holder. If you want an upgrade or a crossover, you bite the bullet, crack the coin out and submit it raw. If you are a good grader, you should land on your feet.

    I have never done a crossover, but as a dealer I did crack-outs and had an excellent success rate.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,014 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Randallj said:
    Personally I have never submitted a coin to cross. Never had a reason to do that and see it as a waste of money. I have registry sets including a One Per Date NGC set of Morgans that's over 90% NGC coins and holds a top 30 spot. I keep it private most of the time and make it a competition set whenever I upgrade just to see where it stands. Never considered the possibility of an award as the awards that really count goes to folks have, and spend, the big bucks.
    Posted this topic just to see if everyone else got the same results with the crossover submissions, and what I am hearing the answer is, yes. I appreciate the input, and as for myself, will not consider a cross again unless the coin is cracked and graded raw. I would have to agree it's the way to go. However, it is a shame that a collector has to be caught up in the prejudice between competitors. It's difficult not to have some hard feelings when they play with your money, and more so, the things which you love.

    In order to try to avoid confusion, when you crack a coin out of a holder and submit it for grading, it becomes a submission, not a crossover attempt.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • I do believe I used the phase, "cracked and graded raw" as a means. However, sorry you were confused.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Having read threads about crossover submissions over many years, I would say that the most success has been achieved by cracking out the coin and submitting it raw. Now, I have not performed a statistical analysis of the history here, but that is my impression having read threads on this subject for many, many years. Cheers, RickO

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,014 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2022 8:02AM

    @Randallj said:
    I do believe I used the phase, "cracked and graded raw" as a means. However, sorry you were confused.

    You did use that phrase. But it followed "... and as for myself, will not consider a cross again unless the coin is". And since the coin would be "cracked and graded raw", there's no consideration of a "cross again unless" to even mention.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • I see why you wear that hat! ;)

  • retirednowretirednow Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lkeigwin said:
    Actually, several years ago NGC chose to deny PCGS coins from their registry sets after many years of allowing them. There was some brouhaha. NGC then did a reversal and began accepting PCGS coins again, but provided a special filter that allowed collectors to choose to compete with only NGC coins or to compete with coins from both TPG's.
    Lance.

    I think NGC Registry set awards are also segregated to recognize NGC slab points only besides composite points with PCGS and NGC pieces ... and to qualify their overall Major awards you need at least 75% NGC

    _**"The winner in each of the following categories receives a plaque, a $500 NGC grading credit and an icon of recognition on their NGC Registry profile. At least 75% of the coins registered to a set must be NGC-certified to be eligible for one of the major awards."
    **_

    Actually, I think it would be nice if PCGS registry would take this approach as well and let NGC slab coins to be posted - I will not cross over for sake of a Registry - rather spend my money on new or upgrading coins

  • @retirednow said:

    @lkeigwin said:
    Actually, several years ago NGC chose to deny PCGS coins from their registry sets after many years of allowing them. There was some brouhaha. NGC then did a reversal and began accepting PCGS coins again, but provided a special filter that allowed collectors to choose to compete with only NGC coins or to compete with coins from both TPG's.
    Lance.

    I think NGC Registry set awards are also segregated to recognize NGC slab points only besides composite points with PCGS and NGC pieces ... and to qualify their overall Major awards you need at least 75% NGC

    _**"The winner in each of the following categories receives a plaque, a $500 NGC grading credit and an icon of recognition on their NGC Registry profile. At least 75% of the coins registered to a set must be NGC-certified to be eligible for one of the major awards."
    **_

    Actually, I think it would be nice if PCGS registry would take this approach as well and let NGC slab coins to be posted - I will not cross over for sake of a Registry - rather spend my money on new or upgrading coins

    I totally agree. The NGC Registry set to which I referred in this post is over 90% NGC slab coins and has climbed from a ranking of over 1500 to a top 30 set within the past three years. It's nice to be able to include some of my favorite PCGS coins in the set, and I would certainly like to be able to include some of the NGC coins within the PCGS Registry. It's possible, but much more difficult to use coins from one service to complete a quality set.

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