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If only we could all be proof-like...!
Che_Grapes
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Thoughts on this “PL” with no frost or cameo whatsoever? Why is it with modern coins PL doesn’t mean cameo?
1
Che_Grapes
Posts: 1,851 ✭✭✭✭✭
Che_Grapes
Posts: 1,851 ✭✭✭✭✭
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And yes - all pics are same coin i tried to capture lighting at different angles - the coin finish is “mirrored” - both devices / legends and fields and for moderns that seems to be enough to get the PL designation. If the device and legends were frosted, it would not be PL but would be graded cameo. For older coins this is not the same. A 1880 Morgan graded PL would have some frost on the devices...
Just another observation from Mr Grapes ...
Two totally different animals.
PL is for MS coins and is based on mirrored surfaces.
CAM and DCAM are for proofs and that is where frosting comes into play.
Nice coin.
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PL on business strikes has to do with mirrored fields and not frosting or cameo contrast.
Young Numismatist/collector
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Agreed - except that older MS silver dollars can be designated PL and have cameo contrasts. I think that is the confusing part.
So if PL means simply mirrored fields - and cameos are for proofs only - then I think I understand now. Thanks to all...
Yes, that can be confusing. I think that is what also make those morgan silver dollars neat and unique from other PL business strike coins.
Young Numismatist/collector
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I guess I have felt that PL on moderns is referring to the fields on MS. Coins and CAM or DCAM include s frosty devices with mirror fields.
My 2-percent 😉
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And the dmpl designation means that Lady Liberty has a cute smile... 😉
@me> @moursund said:
Funny! I always enjoy your posts...!
I always have considered PL to be an evaluation of strike/details.... While CAM etc. is a feature of proof coins... Which, would also be graded on details, with the evaluation of frost to mirror contrast as extra. Cheers, RickO
It appears that there is a gray area when establishing PL between older and newer moderns. PCGS states that a Proof-like coin must exhibit 2 to 4 inches of reflectively on both sides. Furthermore, too many striations or cloudiness will disqualify said coin.
What I’m seeing and based on a few plate coins is that if a coin exhibits frosty devices that they might give the designation anyway.
This coin pulled from CoinFacts is a good example. I would find it hard to believe that this coin would have even 2 inches of reflectivity on the reverse.
Silver dollars are graded PL if they exhibit reflective surfaces, not because they have cameo contrast, which is incidental to the designation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What @MFeld said. Morgans that are PL often have frosting because they were struck from new dies.
Modern MS coins usually aren't frosted, but I suppose they could exist.
SMS coins have CAM and DCAM . They aren't proof coins although they were made differently than other circulation coinage.
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Well that explains a lot but it doesn't explain away the coin above. I suppose that dirty little word "Subjective" is at play here.
Why do you say that? It’s likely fully reflective. But, as is often the case, that can’t be seen in an on-line image, unless the coin is tilted under a light.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My after thoughts exactly, I'm quite sure now after 8 hrs. of yardwork
that they wouldn't have given this coin PL unless it was deserving. The lighting differences between each side possibly threw me. After closer inspection I can see some reflectiveness around the edges of the reverse.
I have a few test pieces currently in the que (including my avatar) that are similar in appearance that I will post when done, if the OP doesn't mind. I didn't feel the need to start a new thread on an old but new topic.
The gray area may not be gray but I was referring to the term modern which is '65 and up yet coins from 69, 72, and among others don't actually (seem) meet the requirements of what is expected of a say 93, 98, or 99. Rather they look more like what you might see on a Morgan and thus my mistake.
Here are a few BS Jeffs with a hint of frost.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Wow a blast from the past / I started this thread a year ago! Well / happy February folks!
Happy 100 year - 1876!!!
@Coinscratch - I don’t mind - curious what your avatar graded and the other coins mentioned…
Thanks @Che_Grapes as I believe you're on to something here. And it's something we need to figure out so we don't keep wasting money. A quick search on PLs here gave me this thread or another where someone called a modern PL lipstick on a pig, so yours was the easy choice.
Avatar - I'm only seeing one in the pop reports, MS65PL and of course I think mine is better. But its the 72, 73, and 1980 dimes and nickels that have frosted devices but little to no mirrors that I am concerned about.
@Coinscratch thanks for that. I got the impression you had sent the avatar coin off for grading - along with the others you mentioned. Post them when you get them back!
PGCS has graded a 64-D PL Jefferson, perhaps you should try yours.
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1964-d-5c-fs-pl/94076
Collector, occasional seller
tick tock tick tock...let me check my order status again.
will do.
There's a good article in the latest Numismatist regarding the manufacture of proof coins. It covers the origin and variations of frosted surfaces through the years. It doesn't exactly apply to the OP's question pertaining to business-strike coins, but it provides great background knowledge regarding the how and why behind the look of our coins.
I have some graded Morgan’s that have really high reflective fields but not much “frost” and therefore (I guess) no PL designation.
If it’s not related to the frost on mrs Liberty then it seems we should have more of these - I guess I’m still confused 🫤
Modern PLs feels like the Final Frontier when you think about what can still be found in the wild.
Have you tried finding a Morgan at a bank lately
I'm not a big fan of P-L coins for the most part, unless they are very high grade, or it's one of those unusual MS-63 or lower coins that have marks that don't bug me. I don't like marks, and P-L coins emphasize them. So, most of the time, I pass on the P-L's. I'd rather have a Proof.
BTW, I'd love to find a Washington Crossing the Delaware quarter (Proof and MS) in an NGC or PCGS slab that didn't cost a fortune. I can't keep my registry set at 100% complete without one, but they are few and far between at the shows.
I'm just going through a phase lol.
I prolly have some of the Delaware's but they would be raw.
@BillJones - make me an offer for the one above - PM me
Sorry, I would not be a high bidder. Most of the money goes to the grading companies these days. Time was dealers would get bulk grading deals, and I would be buy the losers that came back PR-69. Those days seem to be over.
@BillJones - if you like I have some super nice raw crossing the Delaware quarters - P mint - will send you one for cost of shipping if you like —
Thank you for the offer, but then I have to get it graded. Right now I have been waiting for over two months to get three pieces of paper money back from NGC. They charged me $147 for grading, handling and shipping to my PO Box. I submitted the notes to them at the Winter FUN show. Getting stuff certified these days is time consuming and expensive.