How low do you go for rare die varieties?
Barberian
Posts: 3,778 ✭✭✭✭✭
Let's say there's a coin that's an R6 (13-30 exist) that grades "AG details" because of scratches, cuts, light corrosion, and a sizeable punched depression on the obverse. It's offered for sale at about 50% off full retail ($35 instead of $65). Would you buy it? Or would you pass on it and look for a nicer specimen, even though it may take a year or more to find another?
3 rim nicks away from Good
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For an S-217 1801 Draped Bust Large Cent (an R.6 coin), I would buy a Poor Details coin if the price was right. In this case, however, the lowest recent auction price of a straight -graded coin (F12) was over $15,000. In your example, it would depend on the likelihood of finding another coin. I'd probably hedge my bet by buying the coin mentioned and then keep my eyes peeled for a better specimen.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Unless $35 is a significant part of your coin budget, I'd snap it up. If it means no other coins for a month it's a no-brainer. If it means no other coins for six months, I'd hesitate. It gets interesting somewhere in between.
Even if it looks like this?
buy it, and if another comes along sell the old one. apparently these aren't too pricey.
an R6 variety for $35-65? must be foreign
@Barberian.... For my collection... It all depends on the coin and how it looks to me. In the case of the coin you posted, ..... I would pass.... wear, damage... Not for me. Cheers, RickO
Normally, I wouldn't touch an obvious details coin, but that was before I started collecting rare or unusual die marriages (DMs). Now, I buy crappy stuff such as the coin shown below because it's a popular variety that carries a premium, an early die state 1855/54, if I think I could break even or turn a profit when it comes time to sell. This 55/54 was $28 on eBay.
Cherrypicking is becoming a serious coin addiction.
Regarding the 1840-O above, I believe this is a WB-6, which is an R6. About this DM, Bill Bugert wrote: "This die marriage is one of the rarest of the 1840-Os. At the time of this writing and after decades of searching, I am aware of less than ten examples of this die marriage. Others likely exist.". Cool!
With further research, I realized that if I'm wrong, that it's not a WB-6, then it's most likely to be 1) a very early die state WB-9 (another R6), the first one known to lack its characteristic die breaks, or 2) an undescribed die marriage. Plus, I can return it if I don't like it after further examination in-hand. I don't see how I'm wrong, though.
Sold for $37.
FWIW, I spent $30 on this one. It's only an R4 but it came with an attribution card too...
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The lowest I ever went was a ground salvage half cent with Good sharpness. It was the rarer of the two 1805, small 5 stems varieties. At the time, circa 1990, there were about 18 or 19 known.
I bought it from Roger Cohen, who advised me to wait. I paid $1,000 and was able to bail out on it at $1,100 when I became a dealer.
Buy it!
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
Buy it and then when a better one comes along buy it. Sell the first one identifying what it is so you can get much more for it.
@ricko ... Are you a die marriage collector?
@davewesen ... I figure I could sell it as an R6 and quote Bill Bugert's (2011) comments on its rarity to at least recover what I will pay for it. Heck, eBay sellers hype and jack up the price on WB-10s, which are common (R3, 200-500 exist).
I go pretty low, if:
1. It's a dramatic variety, i.e. easy to see die cracks or cud
2. It's pretty rare, like maybe appears once a year on ebay
3. It's priced by grade rather than rarity
I don't buy very many coins, so I'm only motivated for the dramatic ones.
All the others I am happy to study and not buy.
An R6 in a popular series for $35?
Yes grab it.
@lkenefic - I know you mostly bought yours for the Grellman attribution! 😉
@Barberian... No, I am not.... I may have some, but never really checked any of them out. Just not an area that has interested me.... So far. Cheers, RickO
I would pass, especially if it was an esoteric variety.
Now a key date like an 1802 half dime I would do if I needed it for completion.
Until the PO1 and FR2 craze come about, I never looked at that low of a key date coin, but now many coins are valued higher in PO1 and FR2 than AG3 or G4. If it appears gradeable, it is now a possibility if priced right.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
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I think I owned the worst known 1793 half cent, so I'd go pretty low for something I really wanted. It's funny though, there are some wide ranges in values for Details coins in bust halves. I've paid $200 for F/VF details R.5s and I've seen dealers asking $2k for worse looking examples, same grade (which I wouldn't pay on a bet).
Rare is rare and one might never have another opportunity, so I generally will go after a lower grade or a problem coin to secure the variety. Even have a couple with holes in them.
1798 BB-91 (B-32)
1875-S/CC FS-501 (not as rare but the hole missed the S/CC)
(Assume this was directed at me) Absolutely. I can invest a month or two of my coin budget on something rare, in my area, and all beat up.
All serious die marriage collectors of multiple series had details coins when their collections were sold (Logan, Reiver, McCloskey...). If the DM is a true R-6, usually about half of the examples have issues. One year to find a better example? Sounds more like an R-5. It might take 5 years for the opportunity to buy a graded R-6.
I have all DM's through R-6+, with a couple R-7's in the 1794-1807 half dollar series (less two small eagles). It took 25 years, and some upgrades took 10+ years.
This was an R-7 when it showed up unattributed on eBay around 2002, I was the underbidder. Ended up with the coin a few years ago. It has a test partial hole on the tail feathers, seen the same on two others. The 1806 T-25 is now an R-6, and I got another recently, which is the terminal state example in Tompkins. Still like the other, not sure if I will sell it.
Since I've become hooked on rare die varieties, I am finding myself buying horrible problem coins I'd never looked at before. It's been fun, though.
I probably need to sell some of my cherrypicks to get a sense of the market for these coins.
I like your comment about the popularity of varieties. I don't have a good understanding of which varieties are popular aside from the Redbook varieties, or which dates/mm's are collected more actively for varieties. I also have no true sense of the relative popularity of die variety collecting across various series. I know collecting VAMS and Capped Bust varieties are popular, but don't know how much their pricing is driven by demand in these series versus others such as SLHs.
I know DM collecting is getting more popular among avid SLH collectors because I encounter surprising (frustrating) competition among cherrypickers. I've learned not to chisel a few dollars off a BIN or Best Offer when a rare DM appears on eBay or the coin goes POOF. Those are bitter moments!
According to Bill Bugert, 1840-O is a popular date/mint to collect. There're a lot of rare varieties (10 of 16 die marriages + collar die varieties are R5 or R6), interesting die-breaks, three mintmark sizes, 2 DMs with no mintmark at all, and different reed counts within a DM, so it's a fun date/mint to explore. It's like a lotto scratch-off game with lots of chances to win.
However, the fact that the relatively common1840-(O) medium letters WB-4 (R3) carries a hefty premium compared to the mintmarked varieties indicates demand from DM collectors is light. Most sellers on eBay don't even give the DM of their coins. Those that do hype and overprice the coins with conspicuous die breaks, even when they're common DMs.
I probably should get a hold of Fivas's Cherrypicker's guide to get a better sense of the demand and values of DMs.
Those are some beautiful coins! The test hole doesn't bother me. Needless to say, they're much nicer than the dogs I posted above.
Free access to the Bugert PDFs has essentially created a target list of things to search for, hence some competition.
If there is a hefty premium, this suggests to me that the demand is significant (not light).
True, many ebay sellers have inflated asking prices, and don't bother to research die varieties.
And this prevents sales.
Often those coins sit there for years.
But actual prices are from transactions (sales, not asking prices).
It's not that hard to go directly to the sources of coin sales, rather than depending on someone's old price guide that has an unknown basis.
@yosclimber I agree with all of your comments. My post was poorly written with the omission of words that changed the meaning 180 degrees. I meant to say that the fact that die marriages that are much rarer than WB-4 show little premium as rare varieties, suggesting overall demand for most rare DMs from DM collectors is weak. Granted, 40-(O) "Medium Letters" (WB-4 & 12) are some of the most interesting half dollars minted by the US, IMO, but I was surprised that WB-4 is one of the most common DMs for that date/mint, even though they are as much as 10-20 times more available than each of the five DMs with R6 rarity for that date/mm.
Despite the cherry-picking competition I encounter on eBay, SLH DM collecting is in its infancy and is not popular across the coin collecting community at the moment. BB's encyclopedic volumes on SLH die marriages are recent works and have only been available free online for short time. They've certainly made an impact on my collecting interests, though, to say the least.
I use eBay and HA auction results CONSTANTLY to price coins, being well aware as an SLH collector that price guides are often WAY OFF from actual coin sales. There is no convenient guide or auction database I know of that provides quick, meaningful price comparisons for DMs. As you say, many auctions don't even mention the DM of the coin or they often give the wrong DM. Gerry Fortin (and other seated Liberty specialists) provides accurate DMs for his coins, but I haven't looked at Gerry Fortin's database yet. More homework. W & B 1992 provides some info for their varieties, but their varieties are often comprised of several DM's as is the case for 1840-O Large O (WB-104 consists of 10 DMs). I've only looked at the Cherrypicker's guide once and noticed they do provide a price guide that could be useful to some extent. I've never used the CDN price sheets.
I need to sell some of the DMs and varieties I cherrypick to get a better idea of the marketplace as well. I've only done this "by proxy", in other words, I've helped a few unaware eBay sellers by providing info on what exactly they were selling for one particular date (I wasn't interested in cherrying the coin) out of curiosity to see how well they might sell. Their auctions did very well as a result, so that's encouraging.
I hope that clarifies things. Thanks for commenting and correcting my poor communication here.
I'd buy a beat up rare variety, so long as it was still clearly recognizable as such. If it was an RPM or doubled die where the mintmark or doubling was damaged I'd pass. Dateline 1916 Standing Liberty Quarters come to mind, though they are not varieties.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I would buy and upgrade later if I could. I did that on one variety that I know of.
Are you interested in buying a clear, early die-state 1855/54 seated half with a plugged hole?
Just don't look beyond the date and you'll be delighted with it.
Just kidding. I don't want to ruffle any feathers here with SPAM.