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My certified 1723 Rosa Americana Penny- 1st of this type for my collection.
burfle23
Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭
Just received this one today and it is a looker!
Past auction description:
Some mint red/ fading to orange adds to the appearance! In researching these I note some statements regarding being struck in "bath metal" and am looking to understand the term and how it applies to these.
Also interested in the odd "blobs" of metal in the dentils, as I do not know how these were coined.
21
Comments
nice newp.
haven't seen something like that posted in a while.
Nice looking piece ... collecting patterns can be fun ... are you are trying to assemble a type set ?
Great looking Rosa. I need one of those for my collection, tough to find nice (and affordable!).
William Wood's patent for the coins called for them to be made of Bath metal, copper, zinc and a small amount of silver. Metalurgical tests of the coins however show no presence of the silver, Wood must have been trying to save some money! They have a very high zinc percentage, over 40% in most cases. The planchets were heated before striking, this as well as the high zinc percentage accounts for the poor surface quality of many of the pieces. Bubbles, rough surfaces and voids are common.
Cool, it's been a while since seeing one
Very nice.... We do not see these often.... Cheers, RickO
Thank you; I was concerned about the "blobs" on mine, as I have reviewed many images without seeing another example with the same features.
The only one with similar details is this one, but it is a copper plated cast lead counterfeit.
I found a pair of copper plated lead uniface casts that seem to match these for dentilation and lettering features; all 3 have a feature I nicknamed the "broken ER" but all of the lettering appears to not have been properly filled out.
"ER" compared to a known example of the variety on the right.
I'm not sure why but I've always liked them.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Well, I had it scanned at my favorite coin shop and these are the results:
Note: Sb- antimony, used to increase the hardness of alloys, with lead alloys for batteries, with lead/copper/tin alloys for machine bearings.
From the net what they were made of:
Nice coin.
@burfle23
i looked back through the thread and unless i missed something, i'm not entirely certain which coin was scanned. i've seen coins scanned through holders.
The 1st posted one...
Scan
Pb 36% - Lead
Sb 24% - Antimony
Cu 21% - Copper
Sn 7% - Tin
Ru 5% - Ruthenium
Rh 2.5% - Rhodium
Pd 2% - Palladium
Fe 1.5% - Iron
X 1%
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Article
Alloy = Bath Metal
75% Brass
20% Zinc + (tin bismuth)
5% Silver
weight = half the weight of english coins (huh?)
Brass is alloy of copper & zinc
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SOOOOOO, the conclusion i draw from this (provided i'm understanding it correctly) is the coin that was scanned does NOT match up to the reported composition? i think i'm dense on what is going on with this thread but based on whom the OP is, i presumed some shenanigans with the coin(s) but the context (as i understand it) is that the OP coin is authentic?
i have NO idea why some text is larger. i thought i figured out how to stop this, apparently i am mistaken. UPDATE - using dash affects text above it.
I am a bit confused as well. If that scan is correct it appears we are looking at a counterfeit coin that has been slabbed as genuine. Especially with the matching broken ER.
OK, I am a bit slow at connecting the dots, but, Peter Rosa copy, but slabbed as genuine?
I am also confused here.
Is the OP coin counterfeit or not.
If so, is the TV saying that this one got by PCCGS?
Thanks in advance.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
It took some time for me to connect all the dots, but my "authenticated" example is "die" linked to the Peter Rosa examples and definitely based on that and the scan NOT authentic.
Charles dug out one of the original struck lead models for these:
He also found one of the original Rosa examples in the original envelops and I added it to my group; same broken ER as the others.
Pretty much closes the loop on this one!
the loop that is closed is:
a. the op coin is counterfeit, proven by major diagnostics shared by other known counterfeits.
b. that many of the roseannes are counterfeit in and out of tpg holders.
c. a & b
d. neither a & b
e. i question my credentials as a numismatist for NOT being able to get their on my own.
My example is a counterfeit in a TPG holder as genuine; the "loop" included finding old and new counterfeits from the team of "replica makers" including one of the actual lead models used for making these...
Way out of my depth here but I have a question...
Could the Your coin be genuine and that particular die variety be the original coin copied for counterfeits?
If that is not clear, let’s call OPs coin Die pair 1, could a die pair 1 coin have been used as the model for subsequent counterfeits?
Or are there no known genuine examples with the broken ER characteristics?
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Cool research and wow, now I have to go find mine and check.
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see the XRF scan above and my subsequent post.
I saw that and it sparked questions of: Have known genuine examples scanned differently?
How reliable are is reported composition?
Were there composite anomalies in the original planchets?
I know very little about this coin series and the curiosity is getting to me lol!
More questions...
do counterfeiters intentionally make “mistakes” like the broken ER, or is that an oversight?
Could a legit coin be copied then later called fake based on diagnostics associated with faked examples? (Or how likely is that scenario, since it is possible in some way)
I make no argument on the validity of the coin in question, I just am curious.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
I believe the "broken ER" is a strike anomaly (strike bifurcation) causing the die to not fill out the letters completely similar to my 1794 S-28:
The host coin for the "replicas" had this strike; not really a mistake or a die state. I have seen another one with a similar strike but not identical to these.
Peter Rosa's "replicas" were made of copper plated lead and antimony, not anywhere close to what genuine Rosa Americanas were made of...
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so there is an authentic one(s) out there with the die anomalies (probably) and those detail(s) were simply on the counterfeits because of transfer dies, which is what almost all of your posted countefeits have been produced from and are why they are able to be connected.
or do you believe the anomalies to just be from the counterfeit family?
I believe there is a genuine one with the strike as seen on the counterfeits/ replicas. Rosa was known to use examples from the British Museum to strike his models for his process but I couldn't find a matching example there.
Latest Coin Week article on this one:
https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/from-the-dark-corner-an-authenticated-counterfeit-1723-rosa-americana/
Awesome job & thread,,,I think you pretty much answered what I was gonna ask, I mean from your coin week article.
This is what I seen
You da man!
Thanks all