A grossly undervalued iconic RC
voxels123
Posts: 240 ✭✭✭
Greetings,
Does anybody else feel that this card remains grossly undervalued? I have seen the price of Kobes, Jordans, Currys, Durants, etc. go wild over the years - yet this REF RC in PSA 10 remains fairly "cheap."
Personally, I think history will view Duncan as one of the best NBA players in the last 40 years. And this card, truly iconic.
Am I crazy?
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Well his SP Authentic carries a low value as well but honestly no one seems to care or collect him to near the degree of the other greats. It just feels like he is the most boring superstar in any sport and his card values just stay low because of it. I know that seems like an odd take but I think it is at least partially true
Cards have value because the career of a player as well as intangibles. Mantle does not have the most home runs, highest BA, 3000 career hits, but he has all of the intangibles like WS records, WS wins. Played in the best market, looks, from the Midwest…. Same with Joe Namath and others. Duncan played in a small market and was boring, so despite his success he does not have the demand.
I am sure you are correct. I bought the above card for $600 several years ago, so I don't have a dog in the fight.
From my perspective, the card in question is up several hundred percent vs. several thousand percent of other players.
Mantle is valued so high because Beckett said so when their monthly price guide hit during the 80s card boom.
Tim Duncan played in Texas. Texas is the 2nd highest population state in the United States.
During the late 90s and early 2000s this guy was completely dominate. 5 rings.
When people say a player is boring, that really means they just dont get their name said by the media every day.
When the Spurs were winning I wasn't really paying attention to basketball. Yet, I still got real tired of hearing about the Spurs and Duncan (5 rings) and Robinson (2 rings). Oh look. Robert Horry (7 rings! wtf It's gotta be just coincidence, right?) was there too. Kinda like the Patriots and Tom Brady. Do I really have to hear more about this guy?
Sports is funny. In basketball, there are only like 2 teams in this hobby. The Lakers and the Bulls. If you're not Jordan or Kobe, nobody knows who you are. The Celtics used to exist. Then their fans got in to their 60s and 70s and the team went extinct.
There are a lot of Tim Duncan RCs. I should probably buy one.
This is going to sound like this is nit-picking, but I will attempt to answer the question. First of all, I will probably use undervalued / overvalued and overrated / underrated interchangeably. I do that because I believe there is a strong link there.
I will make an unpopular statement - I believe Tim Duncan is overrated. This is not necessarily a criticism of Tim Duncan as much as it is a criticism of the media and fans.
Can a player be very, very good....even one of the 75 greatest players ever and still be overrated? I believe he can. I have seen lists that rank Tim Duncan as one of the top 10 players of all time. If it is some people's opinion that a player is a top 10 player of all time, and yet that player is truly only a top 50 player of all time, then that player by definition is overrated. I believe this is the case with Tim Duncan.
As great as Tim Duncan was, I just don't believe he was a top 10 player. He never led the league in any meaningful category except games played twice and total rebounds once. If you are supposed to be the best power forward to have ever lived as some people say, I would think that player should have led the league in rebounding and scoring multiple times. He shot less than 70% from the foul line and did not have an outside shot.
On the plus side, Tim Duncan was one of the best post players to ever play. His footwork was great and that 12 foot bank shot was a shot that he mastered. On top of all of that - he won.
Tim Duncan is an all time great. I believe he is for sure a top 30 player of all time. He is probably a top 5 power forward of all time. I just don't think he is the BEST power forward of all time. Therefore, I think he is overrated - just slightly.
As for his card values - I think that the fact that he didn't fly through the air, and he didn't dazzle people with no look passes or cross over dribble moves, and the fact that he didn't have an outside game....he was just a very steady, fundamental player that played on the ground....I think that is why his cards are not valued like some of the ones you mentioned.
In short...he played an old man's type of game without an outside shot. Again, this sounds like I am slamming Tim Duncan. I am not trying to do that. I am just trying to state what I see as a reason why he is not valued as much as some and why I think he is overrated by the media.
I also think that Tim Duncan is a class act for what it's worth.
Shane
Mickey Mantle was the most accessible athlete of the 20th century on a number of levels and one of the most talented players to ever play the game of baseball. His impact on the hobby is undeniable to anyone over the age of forty and his ubiquitous presence at signings across the continent had as much if not more to do with the hobby boom of the 1980s than Topps, who basically overprinted cards to capitalize on it.
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Hell, I've lived in San Antonio since 2004, and before that, from 1990-1995; and I was sick and tired of hearing about the Spurs and their players!
I can't count the number of times one of my TV shows was pre-empted because of a Spurs game being broadcast, and then being shown after the game and the nightly local news (usally around midnight - 3AM!
Steve
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Ridiculous.
Mantle could have been the AL MVP in 1952, (could/should have been in the top 5 in '53 &'54) and might have won it from 1955-64 with the exception of 1963 when he played in only 65 games.
He did win it 3 times and finished 2nd 3 times.
Probably the most dominant 12 year (out of 13) stretch in MLB history. The guy did it all; scored runs, hit for average and power, leading the league in all these categories while playing great defense in CF.
Name one player who could claim to do all these things as well as long not named Willie Mays.
I'm not saying Mantle wasn't a great baseball player. Being a great player doesn't appear to have a direct correlation to the value of your sportscard.
Mantle wasn't the best baseball player of his era. His cards are usually the most valuable cards in the sets they're in. Sometimes he is 2nd to a huge rookie card. Often he's even more valuable than the huge rookie. Beckett had all the say in making that happen. Beckett told all the kids in the 80s and 90s that Mantle was the one to collect. Kids who never saw the guy play. There are lots of guys who collect Mantle just because he was the highest priced card in Beckett.
Back then you couldn't just look up stats on the internet or watch highlights on youtube. 1984-1994, maybe longer, Beckett completely dominated the card market. Then the internet hit. eBay goes live in 1995.
Beckett tracked and published sale prices starting in 1984; there were plenty of hobby publications that tracked prices prior to Beckett monthly. They weren’t setting the values but instead were reporting on them, just like Beckett.
Demand for the 1952 Topps #311 (and all other Topps Mantle’s) started to increase the moment he retired and by the mid 1970’s demand had soared. Some owing to the story of the ‘52 high numbers being dumped in the Atlantic and the scarcity it implied, some being the most seminal, beautiful and popular Topps set of all time and some because, again, Mickey Mantle was enormously popular throughout America. In 1978, Mickey starts doing signings that see innumerable fans showing up to meet their idol and have something signed by him. Those dad’s brought their kids who gobbled up all the modern baseball cards they could carry (80-89) and window shopped while dads looked through vintage and waited on line to meet their childhood heros…
…the kids at those shows?
They’re in their 40s and 50s and they are buying the cards they drooled over as kids…and the cards their dad were after, too, in many cases. I know this to be true because I am one of those kids. 😉
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I’m obviously biased, and should probably admit that…😃
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Tim Duncan is cool.
You owning the card of the player that's being debated is the very definition of having a dog in the fight.
Looks like another thread hijacked with pictures of cards I've seen so many times now that I have all the serial numbers memorized.
How much did it sale for is one of the funniest and most ignorant things I've ever heard.
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
Please tag me when you throw shade my way in the future.
Thank you
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Yup, these threads are very common here. "I have this card and it should be worth more!" You make a good argument, but it's a lost cause. You'll never be able to pump up the value of any one card by telling everyone how undervalued it is on this forum.
That's it, Tim @1951WheatiesPremium ?
There was a time when Hank Aaron cards were similarly undervalued, compared to his peers, for some of the same reasons as Tim Duncan....and that was well after Aaron had broken the record.
Duncan may not have a record, but he does have the championships, and it is indeed odd that his rings aren't carrying more weight considering how 90% of fans view rings as the only barometer for greatness.
Great call by the OP.
Things do change.
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What's the Beckett BV of your Mickeys?????...
...I'm guessing they're valued at what someone else is willing to pay for them....
....ya know, like a house, a stock, or a piece of art
No clue what they’re worth, too be honest. They’re all mid and low grade cards that I bought because I like them.
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No, but I don’t want to upset more people by sharing my cards; not what I’m here to do. I like sharing info, learning and checking out the great things others have grabbed.
I’m also definitely guilty of over sharing. There’s no question about that.
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@1951WheatiesPremium I guess that makes me guilty of over enjoying them!
Live long, and prosper.
That's cool @1951WheatiesPremium
A bit of sarcasm in my post.
I disagree Beckett tried to cook the books on Mantle prices. IMO he will always be popular in the collecting community and his prices will reflect that.
Need more Mickey!, lol
You must be joking. ALL the high value sportscards are of great ballplayers with a very few exceptions.
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Name one better.
He was certainly the best ballplayer in the major Leagues from 1952 until 1964 with the exception of Willie Mays, who I regard as a better all around player, but not as good a hitter.
Mantle was also in 11 World Series' during that time and America got to see him and hear about him every year.
I doubt there's a single person on these boards that would agree with either of your comments.
If so, I would love to hear someone else's thought process.
Hey 51Wheaties,
Your 68 Topps Posters Box Cut Out is still my Favorite of yours...
I think the baseball equivalent to Tim Duncan's career is Frank Robinson, but the media overhypes him like they do Derek Jeter. However, his hobby status is not near what Jeter is.
I think the basketball equivalent to Mickey Mantle is more difficult. Peak talent he is Michael Jordan. Injuries turn his career into Pete Maravich (tremendous talent, but injury plagued). Hobby icon status turns him back into Michael Jordan.
Did any of that make sense?
Shane
Based on his accomplishments, Tim Duncan is undervalued compared to some of his peers. However, he is not “grossly” undervalued. He is the more modern version of Hakeem Olajuwon. An overall #1 pick who put up solid points, rebounds, blocks and was a perennial all-star. Both also won world championships. The reason Duncan does not get more hobby love is because
These are the reasons Duncan doesn’t and will not ever get more hobby traction. He quietly went about his business, but we don’t feel like we know him. He was never in the spotlight off the court. Card value is tied to stats, championships and connectedness to the athlete.
Jordan is the ultimate for fan connectedness…”must be the shoes”…”I wanna be like Mike”….Come Fly With Me, Space Jam, jump man logo, “you better eat your Wheaties,” McDonald’s Happy Meal toys, Every single collector here can picture Jordan’s smiling face in all those moments. As if we know him. Connectedness is what separates sports legends and sports immortals. That’s why Mantle is the most collected player in baseball. Boomers felt like they knew him through endorsements and all the 1980’s card shows appearances that made him even more approachable. Same for Babe Ruth and all the children’s work he did and autographs he stopped to sign. All were bigger than the game itself. That’s where Duncan will always fall short, because he never invited us to meet him beyond his numbers on the court.
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Well, not really.
Injuries didn't keep Mantle from leading the league 5 times in runs scored, 4 times in home runs and 3 times in total bases.
For his career he led the league 41 times in various categories (I didn't include strikeouts where he led 5 times). Some of those are sort of duplicated, OPS and OPS+ are pretty similar stats.
Of his 18 seasons, Mantle had over over 500 PA 14 times, so I wouldn't say he compared well to Maravich who led the league in scoring once and played full time for only 10 years..
So you're saying he's in the top 25 all time. That's pretty good. The hobby only likes like 2-5 guys in each sport though. Unless they're a completely unproven kid with less than 3 years played.
Mantle isn't the Jordan of Baseball or Baseball cards.
How so? Would you elaborate on that a little?
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Mantle might be the Jordan of baseball cards, but there really can’t be a Jordan of baseball. No one baseball player can consistently impact games like Jordan (or Lebron, or Curry, etc.) can. It just isn’t a superstar driven sport, and so comparing any baseball player to Jordan isn’t appropriate, unless it’s purely in terms of popularity.
I’m not really able to follow some of the logic and comments here in this thread.
There isn’t much of a comparison in card values anymore, grade for grade. Mantle crushes Jordan.
I also believe that, in sports history, there has never been a better marketed athlete than Michael Jordan and that has made many people unable to separate the player from the hype. Make no mistake, Michael Jordan is one of the best to ever play the game. One of, but certainly not the and there’s no one else that is close. That’s simply not the case.
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Is a Volkswagen the same as a Lamboutghini?
Both get you to where you want to go.
One of them drops your jaw when you see it.
Mantle was about 200 Lbs 5'11
He could hit an Un juiced baseball with a wooden bat 565 ft. (got the card)
I can't think of a player ever that could do that
IMO he was the most talented player EVER.
Mantle although great accomplishments is also a what if???
drinking
injuries
The value of vintage HOF RC's has skyrocketed. So many are out of my budget
I have a PSA 9 Jordan RC .....Would trade it any day for a Mantle I needed.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Mantle, in terms of their respective RC cards, does crush Jordan on a price per card basis. And most other issues as obviously the Mantles are quite a bit more rare. In that vein, I would argue that the Mantle market is deeper (higher end) but the Jordan market is wider (larger and stretches across demographics and income levels). 1500 or so Mantle RCs PSA graded vs 20K+ Jordan. The Mantles are worth more but there are 15X more Jordan’s. In terms of total market cap, they seem close (I haven’t done the math).
Just some food for thought. I’d rather have the Mantles as long term investment, personally. But demographics and reach are important.
I don't think very many people consider Mantle to be the best baseball player of all time. I think it appears that way to a lot of kids who grew up on Becketts monthly price guide because they left out everything before WWII. I don't think they wanted the kids to have that information. Even in this thread guys are saying, Mantle, best of his era!, well, except Mays. Even that is probably not accurate. Mantle may have been the best white baseball player of his era. Civil rights era.
Babe Ruth has some pretty impressive lore associated with him. Hit a ball 587 feet in 1919. Today they say that defies the laws of physics. There were lots of guys who played before WWII. A lot of that stuff is priceless. Baseball loves to have a great Yankee.
Mantles RC cards do crush Jordan's. But, There are like a 500,000=1,000,000 1986 Fleer Jordan RCs. There are not nearly that many Mantle FTCs. When I was a kid George Mikan was the most valuable basketball card in Becketts magazine. Which also contained nothing pre-WWII.
Mays, maybe Aaron. Who else is better in that era?
Mays, Aaron, Musial were better. Mantle is right there at #4 though in my opinion. Being white and a Yankee in that era made Mantle the most memorable for the Boomer generation though.
Willie McCovey.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
You can make a strong case for Musial, but I guess I don't see him as quite the same era. The best part of his career was already over when Mantle became a regular.
When Mickey Mantle retired, he was 3rd all time in HR. He is now 18th and the vast majority of guys that passed him were steroid or PED users. Both Mays and Aaron passed him by playing significantly longer than he did but neither could match his best seasons, with Mays coming closer.
I doubt his World Series home run record is ever broken and he is on the short, elite list of players to have a season where they lead all of the Major Leagues in the Triple Crown categories. Baseball is unlikely to see a stretch of dominance like that of Mickey Mantle from 1956-57 that is unaided by PEDs ever again.
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Great accomplishment, but like Jeter, only possible by being fortunate enough to be on the star studded Yankees and in the World Series more often than not. If these guys were on the Washington Senators or the KC Royals, how would their careers have been viewed? Maybe Mike Trout is a good case study.
I’m a huge Yankees fan. Jeter does not hold a candle to Mantle. One was part of a great ensemble, one is a top 5 talent in the history of the game. I don’t know how their careers would have gone in a fantasy but with both having ended, their accomplishments speak for themselves.
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Even if the measures were HRs, just saying his best year was better than others does not make him superior by any means. Mantle had 4 seasons of 40 or more HRs, Aaron had eight. Mantle is not in the 3000 hit club while even if you take away Aaron's 755 HRs, he still has over 3000 hits. Longevity had nothing to do with Aaron being better, he just simply was.
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And make no mistake, I love Mantle( see below
). He was the face of baseball for many and continues to be well loved by hobbyists.
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I’m not going to disparage Hank Aaron but I will point out that despite his fewer career hits and home runs, Mickey Mantle was better at getting on base and slugged at a higher percentage for his career than did Hammerin’ Hank. And were it not for his hitting a combined .254 over his final four seasons, he probably has the better career batting average, also.
And again, this was all accomplished as an injury prone player with injuries that predate his professional career (and yet, playing through most/all of those injuries that didn’t require hospitalization) and was also a functional alcoholic that drank himself to death by age 65.
Again, perhaps the most amazing thing about Mantle is that for all he accomplished, which was remarkable, he almost certainly left a lot in the table, too, which is also rather remarkable.
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Mantle swung for the fences and led the league in walks and strikeouts, with the walks giving him the edge for OBP. Hank had far fewer of each and was truly a power hitter who also hit for average. Too many what if's with Mantle, Hank did it and also under so much pressure in regards to his civil rights.
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Again, Aaron was spectacular- truly. Mickey Mantle did not swing for the fences, he just had a powerful swing - from both sides of the plate, lest we forget - and I’m not sure why people struggle to interpret walks. They’re a part of the game and a player should be credited with getting to first base and helping his team. You can’t hit a homer every time and great players might get on twice a night. They count, they matter and Mantle had good speed up until maybe 1962 so he was a threat to steal a base or score from first. And along with homers came plenty of hard hit doubles and triples, which is how he came to lead the American League in OPS+ 8 times in an 18 year career, with six of those seasons good enough to lead all of baseball in the OPS+ category.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mantlmi01.shtml
And I only mention the ‘what if’s’ because it is intriguing to think that he never really accomplished all he could have. Ultimately, I agree I t’s irrelevant given all that he did accomplish, in spite of his wounds many of which were self inflicted.
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@maddux69
I enjoy the friendly debate of where the two all time greats belong: there’s no doubt in my mind that Aaron had the more consistent career. I hope you enjoy it as well.
I also think that Mickey Mantle is one of those guys whose star shines even a little bit brighter with the sabermetric lens applied. While I will always concede that being a Yankee helps any player by being on a first rate winning oriented franchise as far as their counting stats, Mickey Mantle’s ‘isolated skill’ and rate stats are still pretty other worldly.
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Interesting take. People at the apex of the hobby will always collect all time greats, there is no debate about that. People at the hobby’s apex right NOW are white men in their 40s, 50s, and 60s primarily who grew up closer to mantle than younger folks.
I am in my 30s and if I took a poll of my friends in the real world, I can assure the names they would recognize would be:
Babe Ruth and Jackie Robinson.
I highly doubt anyone knows who Mantle is except the baseball fans. Everyone knows who Jordan is, and the 2 guys names above.
Again Mantle won’t fall off a cliff, nor will the rate stuff probably go down at all. All time great truly rare stuff hardly ever does.
But comparing Mantle to Jordan is a stretch looking at the next 20 years. Jordan is still in pop culture and in your face all the time. Just look down at folks shoes next time you’re in a crowd.
The documentary also re-invigorated his name and brand amongst people too young to have watched him live. If a Mantle doc is on the way that captivates the nation, that would help.
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
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Mantle was far more dominant, but of course Aaron played in 800 more games, so depending on how you want to look at it, of course Aaron was "better". So yes longevity certainly is part of the equation.
Adding in length of career would place several players above Mantle on my list, certainly Aaron and also including Stan Musial who's play from 1943-54 was also quite dominant.
My earlier comment was regarding Mantles years of 1952-64 where he was by FAR the better player than Aaron.
Mays from 1954-66 was better than both of them, but it's close.
Interesting fact on the civil rights issue. In his book "I Had a Hammer" Aaron states that the issues he faced during his career actually fueled his desire to break the all time HR record, so while it was wrong to treat black ballplayers the way it was, it actually made him more determined to break the record.