Paul Coffey was an outstanding offensive defenseman. His defense was average to good. He averaged 1.08 points per game throughout his career, benefitting from playing with the two greatest forwards hockey has ever seen in Gretzky and Lemieux for over half his career.
Bobby Orr averaged 1.4 points per game. He had no Gretzky, no Mario, and most nights just one good leg.
That’s like Jordan averaging 33 ppg throughout his career, and then comes along someone who averaged 45 ppg. Plus the new kid is a vastly superior defender.
It’s like Barry Bonds averaging 40 home runs per season throughout his career, and then comes along someone who averages 56 per season. Plus the kid is a quicker outfielder and a much greater fielder with impeccable defense.
Orr dominated his sport like no other athlete ever did.
It's almost like he played basically his entire career in a league where half or more of the players wouldn't have even been in the league just a few years before.
Orr dominated his sport like no other athlete ever did.
It's almost like he played basically his entire career in a league where half or more of the players wouldn't have even been in the league just a few years before.
Good chatting with you Tabe. You’re an excellent poster here. I think we’ve exhausted this subject enough.
Against the best league competition in the NHL playoffs, excluding 1973 when Bobby just couldn’t skate due to pain, he averaged 1.39 ppg during his entire postseason career.
When his knees and career were finished and he couldn’t get out of bed in the morning and skated with only one good leg in the 1976 Canada Cup, he was the leading scorer of the tournament.
Just a reminder. He’s a defenseman, and that team had 18 hall of famers on it.
@Goldenage said:
Imagine the Red Wings coach saying to Lidstrom “even though I know you can get us 3 points per game because no one can stop you, don’t do that.” If Lidstrom, Potvin or Bourque could skate through defenses with ease, they would have.
Funny enough, you just made the perfect case for why Bill Russell and his 15 pts per game belongs nowhere near the GOAT discussion for basketball.
How so?
When it's pointed out that Russell averaged only 15 a game - in an extremely high-scoring era - his defenders will say that Red Auerbach told him to not worry about scoring, that it wasn't needed. As Goldenage's comment about Lidstrom points out, this is absurd.
Well, I can’t speak to hockey but as far as basketball is concerned, the dynamics of any successful basketball team involve players that execute a game plan and play in their roles. So the idea that a coach might tell an individual player to look to ‘score less’ is actually not out of the realm of possibility.
Two concrete examples:
1). Michael Jordan is famously quoted as saying the only guy who could ever keep him under 20 a game was Dean Smith. It’s Michael’s egocentric way of saying that he’s the only coach who ever got him to share the basketball and play within the confines of a team oriented system. On some level, most players need to touch the ball to feel involved in the offense and will play better overall as a result. When one player dominates the ball, other players withdraw and resent and it usually shows up in game apathy and lack of effort.
2). If you watch the modern NBA, it is a star driven league and many team have a ball dominant Star and an unhappy supporting cast. Half the problem with the Lakers and the Nets this season is you had too many guys that need to have the ball and need to score because they can’t or won’t do much, will become withdrawn and the team suffers as a result. A modern, though lesser, conceptual equivalent is Draymond Green. On a lesser team, he would be a larger part of the offense and a ‘better’ scorer. But for the most part, that isn’t what they need him to do for the Warriors. OR HOW Dennis Rodman could take a team to another level with just defense an rebounding? But Russell was a significantly better rebounder and defender and was good for 15 PPG, which usually was closer to 20 in the playoffs. I hope this makes some sense and I’ll try to illustrate it further with some basketball specific jargon, so forgive me.
First, while I am not a hockey guy, a friend who is spent an hour in the bar explaining it as basketball on ice (it was intriguing and there are lots and lots of parallels) and we agreed that hockey players do a much better job of sharing the puck than basketball players do sharing the ball. 😂
Circling back to Russell, it was around him that the the Celtics basically ushered in that high scoring era of basketball you speak of and it was predicated on the fast break, which would quite often be started by either a Russell blocked shot* or rebound with a quick outlet pass to KC Jones or Bob Cousy who would already be on the move in a 3 on 2 or two on one attack. This was a new style; it’s not that a fast break didn’t exist but the Celtics were the pro team that pioneered the idea that every_posession should be a fast break. As such, Russell was often told to be the trailer which would make him last to arrive on the offensive end. In addition, if the break was unsuccessful the motion offense _was designed to get the ball into the low post, and while he could (and would) attack a singular defender, most often he drew a double team and then against that you can kick to any of the excellent open shooters spotting up around the perimeter who take the open shot or continue to pass the ball to catch the late rotating defender.
Bill Russell won eleven titles in thirteen season played as the best player in the league, earning the actual honor of league MVP five times. This after leading the University of San Francisco to back to back National Championships in college. That’s also a certain kind of dominance - winning the games.
*So good at shot blocking was Russell that he would block the ball in such a way that he very often ended up with the ball, too. A block out of bounds isn’t a turnover; Bill Russell pioneered and perfected the blocked shot turnover.
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Orr dominated his sport like no other athlete ever did.
It's almost like he played basically his entire career in a league where half or more of the players wouldn't have even been in the league just a few years before.
Good chatting with you Tabe. You’re an excellent poster here. I think we’ve exhausted this subject enough.
Thank you. Same to you. I greatly enjoy an amicable discussion.
Just a reminder. He’s a defenseman, and that team had 18 hall of famers on it.
@Tabe said:
I appreciate your thoughtful take on Bill Russell. Very insightful.
Thank you, sir.
He is arguably the greatest basketball player of all time. Oh, and for the last two years of his career, in addition to his playing responsibilities he was also the head coach of the team; the first African American head coach in the four major sports in America, I believe.
I have it as him or Kareem (I’m slightly partial to the latter) in a dead heat.
Go watch a few minutes of Abdul-Jabbar’s highlights from the Bucks days to see why!
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Comments
Bryan Trottier
Mark Messier
Patrick Kane
Peter Forsberg
Bobby Clarke
Stan Makita
All hall of famers
All won multiple Stanley Cups
All high in all time NHL scoring leaders.
All played forward
All averaged less GOALS per game
than the greatest hockey player who ever lived.
Paul Coffey was an outstanding offensive defenseman. His defense was average to good. He averaged 1.08 points per game throughout his career, benefitting from playing with the two greatest forwards hockey has ever seen in Gretzky and Lemieux for over half his career.
Bobby Orr averaged 1.4 points per game. He had no Gretzky, no Mario, and most nights just one good leg.
That’s like Jordan averaging 33 ppg throughout his career, and then comes along someone who averaged 45 ppg. Plus the new kid is a vastly superior defender.
It’s like Barry Bonds averaging 40 home runs per season throughout his career, and then comes along someone who averages 56 per season. Plus the kid is a quicker outfielder and a much greater fielder with impeccable defense.
It's almost like he played basically his entire career in a league where half or more of the players wouldn't have even been in the league just a few years before.
Good chatting with you Tabe. You’re an excellent poster here. I think we’ve exhausted this subject enough.
Against the best league competition in the NHL playoffs, excluding 1973 when Bobby just couldn’t skate due to pain, he averaged 1.39 ppg during his entire postseason career.
When his knees and career were finished and he couldn’t get out of bed in the morning and skated with only one good leg in the 1976 Canada Cup, he was the leading scorer of the tournament.
Just a reminder. He’s a defenseman, and that team had 18 hall of famers on it.
Well, I can’t speak to hockey but as far as basketball is concerned, the dynamics of any successful basketball team involve players that execute a game plan and play in their roles. So the idea that a coach might tell an individual player to look to ‘score less’ is actually not out of the realm of possibility.
Two concrete examples:
1). Michael Jordan is famously quoted as saying the only guy who could ever keep him under 20 a game was Dean Smith. It’s Michael’s egocentric way of saying that he’s the only coach who ever got him to share the basketball and play within the confines of a team oriented system. On some level, most players need to touch the ball to feel involved in the offense and will play better overall as a result. When one player dominates the ball, other players withdraw and resent and it usually shows up in game apathy and lack of effort.
2). If you watch the modern NBA, it is a star driven league and many team have a ball dominant Star and an unhappy supporting cast. Half the problem with the Lakers and the Nets this season is you had too many guys that need to have the ball and need to score because they can’t or won’t do much, will become withdrawn and the team suffers as a result. A modern, though lesser, conceptual equivalent is Draymond Green. On a lesser team, he would be a larger part of the offense and a ‘better’ scorer. But for the most part, that isn’t what they need him to do for the Warriors. OR HOW Dennis Rodman could take a team to another level with just defense an rebounding? But Russell was a significantly better rebounder and defender and was good for 15 PPG, which usually was closer to 20 in the playoffs. I hope this makes some sense and I’ll try to illustrate it further with some basketball specific jargon, so forgive me.
First, while I am not a hockey guy, a friend who is spent an hour in the bar explaining it as basketball on ice (it was intriguing and there are lots and lots of parallels) and we agreed that hockey players do a much better job of sharing the puck than basketball players do sharing the ball. 😂
Circling back to Russell, it was around him that the the Celtics basically ushered in that high scoring era of basketball you speak of and it was predicated on the fast break, which would quite often be started by either a Russell blocked shot* or rebound with a quick outlet pass to KC Jones or Bob Cousy who would already be on the move in a 3 on 2 or two on one attack. This was a new style; it’s not that a fast break didn’t exist but the Celtics were the pro team that pioneered the idea that every_posession should be a fast break. As such, Russell was often told to be the trailer which would make him last to arrive on the offensive end. In addition, if the break was unsuccessful the motion offense _was designed to get the ball into the low post, and while he could (and would) attack a singular defender, most often he drew a double team and then against that you can kick to any of the excellent open shooters spotting up around the perimeter who take the open shot or continue to pass the ball to catch the late rotating defender.
Bill Russell won eleven titles in thirteen season played as the best player in the league, earning the actual honor of league MVP five times. This after leading the University of San Francisco to back to back National Championships in college. That’s also a certain kind of dominance - winning the games.
*So good at shot blocking was Russell that he would block the ball in such a way that he very often ended up with the ball, too. A block out of bounds isn’t a turnover; Bill Russell pioneered and perfected the blocked shot turnover.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I appreciate your thoughtful take on Bill Russell. Very insightful.
Thank you. Same to you. I greatly enjoy an amicable discussion.
He was a great player - I will never deny that
The Seattle Kraken using Sabermetrics are the best team in the NHL. LOL
Thank you, sir.
He is arguably the greatest basketball player of all time. Oh, and for the last two years of his career, in addition to his playing responsibilities he was also the head coach of the team; the first African American head coach in the four major sports in America, I believe.
I have it as him or Kareem (I’m slightly partial to the latter) in a dead heat.
Go watch a few minutes of Abdul-Jabbar’s highlights from the Bucks days to see why!
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
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