large and half cent, will they grade? - revealed
LanceNewmanOCC
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Comments
The lighting on the top coin makes it hard to guess, but the haloing around the devices on the obverse makes me think it's been cleaned. The second coin's color is a bit too light (and the red a bit offputting) for my taste, though I don't have a great feel for whether it could still skate by.
They both look like a no to me from the pictures.
I see both as Details Grade coins.
Maybe just the photos/lighting but I'm also in the no dice camp.
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1819, no….1805 Half Cent VF 35 or XF 40
Excuse my ignorance, but that 9 in the 1819 doesn't look right. Is it a counterfeit?
Details grade yes, straight grade no.
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I'm with @Catbert regarding the 1819. The date really looks odd. Several details in the portrait appear to be "off" too. The color on both seems off, but maybe that's just the way they look in the photos.
The color on the 1819 looks off but so does the font on the date. Here's the link for the images in coin facts. There's a Large Date, a Small Date, and an overdate 1818/19.... but the font on the OP's piece doesn't really match up.
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1819-1c-small-date-bn/1606
The Half Cent looks real and I think it has a possibility of a straight grade (VF30)... again, the reddish color looks a bit odd but copper can look take on a plethora of color depending on how the lighting is adjusted.
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Obverse color not right on the 1/2 Cent. Have seen worse in first world holders. Lighting on the Large Cent looks off, and so does the 9 in the date. Agree with others that the 1/2 cent is real; not sure about the large cent.
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MY OPINION IS NO
Tom
First reaction on both was "questionable color" so I am going to say no.
My opinion is no.
Tom
I agree, with the font for the 1's it has to be a large date and the 9 looks very spindly. JMO
As to color, I have had a half cent with the same coloration years ago that was returned QC. The splotches on the large cent are worrisome also.
Jim
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The Half Cent is a coin flip - I don't see a lot of consistency with the straight/details divide when it comes to old copper. As mentioned by others, the 1819 doesn't look right.
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Just sat down with Mr Noyes. That 1819 doesn't match any die varieties listed.
Smitten with DBLCs.
appreciate the input.
these images were pulled from the counterfeit section of my image database.
tbh, i think the large cent came from undated master dies and then each die was dated thereafter. tons of this craziness going on with counterfeiters. gotta keep the overhead down, ya know?
i admit that half cents have always given me trouble because so many authentic ones look fake to me (but i have enjoyed owning quite a few early and later ones), as well as a few other large cents and a few select issues/dates from other usa coin series as well but imo, the half cent is counterfeit and i think both are probably just crap metal. i don't recall the specific circumstances which i acquired these images as i have at the very least hundreds if not more from various sources.
i'm sure the vets here recognize i like to throw up random coins like this from time to time to see what the natural reactions are but it is obviously for education purposes. i think maybe that barber half dollar listing/thread recently inspired it this time. kinda gives me knots in my stomach thinking about how much of this stuff is sliding through the system and into people's collections so we gotta help each other.
Well I learned a bit from this thread..... Thanks for the inputs. Cheers, RickO
The 1819 is based on the 1833 N5 variety and from a "family" of large cent fakes I wrote a Coin Week article on.
The 1805 C4 struck counterfeit is from my personal collection of 3 pieces; this particular example was certified genuine by 2 TPGs; currently in a top TPG slabbed as "Genuine".
Wow! Thanks for the "teaching moment"... I only picked up on the 1819 since I've been looking at a lot of them lately. I never would have guessed the half-cent to be a counterfeit... dang!!
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thanks for the confirmation. i thought those images were awfully nice and must be something newly added to my collection.
have you had the half cent scanned (xrf? handheld) and/or specific gravity or other testing to figure out what they are made of and/or what the weight is?
if you've already posted some of this previously, no need to duplicate efforts. we can find it by searching your posts/discussions.
since so many of these things have come to light and so many more are out there, i'm trying to think of 1-2 method catch-all or at least nearly that can be done outside normal methods so that non-experts in marriages/diagnostics but someone with some extra cash, relationship(s) with people that have extra and are willing to invest or people with access and/or skillset(s) to test the coins and treat them as just a chunk of metal to get counterfeit detecting results. something along those lines.
perhaps someone whom the forum responds well to starting the thread and keeping a top 5 or 10 best methods even if not the easiest for detecting counterfeits that have plain and simply been flying under the radar on us for a LONG time now and of course, this will pay off potentially for future-made fakes as well. i'm getting a sense that a shift is needed because old methods are not getting the more difficult and from what i've seen, significantly more "valuable" ones.
does that little device that tests gold, you lay it flat and put the coin on it, also test other metals?
how about high-end metal detectors? don't they read metal content and give specific different sound tones? in and out of slabs.
i know we have the info and methods but at least to me like it all hasn't been put together yet.
I have had 2 levels of XRF scans done by an accredited Lab on both the latest counterfeits and genuine large and half cents with interesting results. With the half cents we were able to find a fingerprint that ties them together and differentiates them from genuine examples.
We found the counterfeit large cents to match genuine examples of the same era, possibly supporting our premise the counterfeiters used genuine cull large cents as planchets for them initially.
I have NOT published the actual measured results/ level of detail in any public forum like this...
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no probs. i'm perfectly content keeping the inner sanctum of info like that in private hands. there are still other above-average methods to detect them that doesn't make the counterfeiters better but the counterfeit detectors.
I did just post about my 1796 large cent and the planchet undertype...
i am not sure the search criteria to find the thread i wanted this to go into re: methods/technology used to detect higher-end counterfeits.
watching some youtube vids regarding fakes coming out of china (not just coins) and it is staggering but in watching some coin vids specifically, it has been reported that some are using "medical" scanning devices as well to authenticate coins/bars etc. ie: ultrasounds