PCGS Submission - Missing Coins
Project Numismatics
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This is the most bizarre coin experience I have had, I am quite upset and am unsure how to proceed.
Last week, I sent a large box (20in x 12in x 10in) with 35 coins to PCGS for grading. 28 of the these were in sealed US Mint boxes (first strike eligible) and placed inside my larger shipping box. I used registered mail and insured it for the market value of the coins. My shipment contained the following:
#1: Large US Mint sealed box containing 6 coins - 2021 3x D and 3x S Morgans
#2: Large US Mint sealed box containing 6 coins - 2021 3x D and 3x S Morgans
#3 Large US Mint sealed box containing 6 coins (accounted for)
#4 - #8: 5 small US Mint sealed boxes each containing 2 coins (accounted for)
#9: One self-packed box with 7x assorted modern coins in flips (accounted for)
PCGS sent me an email today saying that one of the 3x D and 3x S Morgan boxes (either #1 or #2 from the list) is missing and that they only received 29 coins. The email claims they have reviewed the video and they are asking for my permission to proceed with grading.
I took plenty of photos of myself packing the box and am confident it contained all of the above items and I have re-reviewed the photos to confirm. See my photo below of boxes #1, 2 and 3 inside my larger box.
I see two possibilities:
1) USPS tampering/theft
2) PCGS has made some kind of mistake during unpacking
I see #1 as unlikely given that the box was sent registered mail and PCGS has not indicated any evidence of tampering. Further, sealed US Mint boxes with 6 coins are quite large and would have been the hardest item to remove from the shipment. Recourse here would be to file an insurance claim.
Possibility #2 makes little sense given PCGS' video (though I have not seen the video or any photos).
At this point, I have instructed PCGS not to move forward with the order, asked a series of questions about the condition of the outer shipping box and what was inside each sealed US Mint box and have asked for video / photos.
(Before anyone asks, I did not exceed my household limit on Morgans - I acquired them at market value from a 3rd party.)
Any thoughts out there? Really at a loss (pun intended) on this one and quite upset about the situation.
Comments
Mistakes happen. Have PCGS investigate.
Hum there may be a thief in shipping and receiving crazy it's the most expensive coins as well. Sorry to hear this but hope they catch who ever it is. I wonder how many they are getting as of yet. I would have more eyes on shipping and receiving if they are having more then normal problems then before.
Hoard the keys.
Can you get a copy of the video? At the very least it should show if the package was untampered with when they got to unpacking it. If there was tampering this wont tell you if it was done by the post office or PCGS, but it may indicate that earlier video (of it exists) should be looked over or if there’s a different mystery to work on.
This happened to me once. PCGS said missing one coin. I am pretty sure I did put in the coin but I did not brother to argue so I reply to PCGS to process with the grading. It is less than $100 not a big deal. I just wrote it off as lost.
Is it possible that the sealed boxes that you purchased from a third party were empty of coins? Many videos on the Interweb of people opening sealed mint packages to review coins undetected. Maybe the third party was buying up sealed boxes and got scammed. Thus passing off the empty boxes unknowingly to you?
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PCGS has no reason to report anything other than what the facts present. The more coins they get to grade, the more money they make. This is not a slam, its a fact. They are a business and have no reason or time....... to report anything other than what they got... I'm sorry this happened....
PCGS didn't take your coins. They have too much security for anyone to be able to do that.
I suspect that you will find a box at some point with the 6 missing coins that you thought that you sent but didn't.
If someone at PCGS was going to steal something it would not be $100 coins.
I’m sorry that this has happened. However, while you probably think the chances are zero, you omitted a third possibility - that you somehow didn’t include the additional coins in the shipment.
Please don’t take offense, as I’d say the same to anyone else in your situation, including myself. One way or another, I hope your coins are located.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
4th possibility is the us mint shorted you coins if you purchased them directly from the us mint.
Good luck!
PCGS would likely not have accepted a registered package if it had signs of tampering. If PCGS says an entire box is missing, then you did not send that box. Like jesse said, you sent sealed boxes that were supposed to contain mint products. If you never opened them you are not sure of what was inside. You stated you bought the sealed mint boxes from a third party - there likely lies your problem if in fact you sent all of the boxes that you think you sent.
If PCGS says they reviewed their receiving video then it didn't happen at their end. Best to give them the go ahead with the remaining order as turnaround times are not that great these days.
Lesson I have learned: Never send sealed mint boxes for grading unless bought directly from the mint. If I do buy sealed boxes in the aftermarket, I immediately confirm contents.
This was my first thought. How hard would it be to open a mint sealed box and then reseal it without detection? I'm asking because I don't buy modern coins directly from the mint and I'm not familiar with their current packaging.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Not hard at all to the untrained eye. One piece of clear tape seals US mint products.
Easy, I reuse the mint boxes for one of my online shops (not coin related)
That's what I suspected. When one buys an "original mint sealed box" from someone other than the US Mint, you don't know how many hands the box went through before you bought it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Like other folks said, it’s fairly easy to make a box look mint sealed.
I don’t sell sealed boxes, even when I bought them from the mint, because I can’t prove the mint put the coins, or the right coins, in the box.
Ask PCGS for the inside invoice for the boxes, probably too late to associate packages with boxes but you may find someone sent you a 1 coin box instead of a 3 coin box. 🤷♂️
Is the "FIRST STRIKE" or "EARLY STRIKE" designation on a slab label really meaningful when someone can easily open a mint sealed box, switch out the coins, and then reseal the box without detection? This is only a hypothetical question because I doubt anyone would bother to do this because there's no real financial incentive to do this.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
These labels aren’t meaningful in general, and not for the reason you cited.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I’ll answer as a recovering ase addict. OGP or first day of issue only. Never cared as an eBay addict about first strike or first release. Ment absolutely nothing and was viewed as the same as a plain label. I don’t mean to sound callous but I’m relating to my experience.
Now that I’m a little wiser ? Still means nothing to me as a buyer. Thanks 🙏
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
@MFeld - It’s simply not possible that I “forgot” to send the coins. That is why I took and reviewed pics of the packing process. I also don’t have random US Mint sealed boxes and or coins laying around that would give rise to that sort of confusion as I am just a small time collector.
@jessewvu - I don’t think the mint shorted me because all the boxes had coins and were the proper weight. It’s possible they contained the wrong coins, but that’s not PCGS claim.
@GRANDAM - I didn’t accuse PCGS of stealing, but I do think it’s possible they made a mistake. And this is a lot more than $100 - it’s 6 coins valued at $700.
@PerryHall and @derryb - PCGS isn’t claiming that one box was empty - they are claiming it isn’t there at all.
What do the tracking numbers show? All Boxes received, moved forward from location to location? arrived at PCGS?
WS
All the individual boxes were placed inside a large box which arrived. It’s a discrepancy over which individual boxes were inside the shipment:
Since you shipped via USPS Registered Mail with insurance, open a claim with the USPS for the missing coins.
The USPS takes possible tampering of Registered Mail pretty seriously, and would most likely contact PCGS to verify that the coins were actually missing from the package. I don't think PCGS ever shares the video of the unboxing with the submitter, but may share it with the USPS Inspector if need be.
Hopefully the coins are found or you are at least reimbursed by the USPS for the missing coins.
Thank you! I think this is a good suggestion as a next step.
My confidence in both registered mail and PCGS is pretty shaken at the moment.
Unless there was/is evidence of package tampering, it seems extremely unlikely that the USPS would pay a claim.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
They may not, but their investigation could narrow down the possibilities of what happened. I would appreciate an independent third party reviewing the unpacking video.
Editted to add - I’m not accusing anyone of theft - but I have to imagine that unpacking a large shipment with 9 boxes inside can get confusing and mistakes can happen. I did tag each box with an order number sticker in case anything got separated.
I just sent out a similar kind of order - sealed US mint box (bought from the mint - Limited Edition Silver Proof Set), inside a large Priority Mail box sent registered mail. While this is one unfortunate incident, it has me a little concerned. I did not take pix of the pckg before shipping, it just had not occurred to me.
I'll see what happens when it gets there.
I did however put a small label on the mint box with the order number and related line numbers, and put a note in the order form of which coins were in a sealed US Mint box. (I see on your last post you did the same.)
Altho, I have also heard stories where coins were missing from certain sets from the mint - but thats not your case, I realize.
USPS has told me they sign off on every step of the registered mail, so maybe they'll have some sort of audit trail at least. I know when my registered mail ships cross-country, it goes thru 3 airports (well, freight, but you know what I mean). I always wonder about another "Lufthansa heist".
I hope for the best for you.
I commend you on your level-headed, polite posts and your attitude, especially in the midst of this type of situation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Nice to see some positive direction for this to take. I took on a habit from a good mentor to check in-demand mint products thoroughly as in making sure the coins listed outside the box are present inside the box. I remember a case when someone sold to him a 2018 Reverse Proof set and months later we discovered that it contained a regular Silver Proof set on the inside.
Nowadays, whenever I examine such sets, I explain this reasoning to the client. Even if they tell me the coins are inside, I respond with "This is so you know that I know, and that I know that you know." Security for all parties involved.
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Registered Mail is the most secure method of USPS packages. It is very doubtful that it was "disturbed" after you gave it to the USPS clerk.
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As far as first strike sealed boxes, If PCGS does it the same as show submissions, They verify the seal (not previously opened), they retrieve the envoice (verify items and ship date), they then inventory and itemize contents (verify submission form line-item).
(l8-)>>
Hopefully the coins turn up.
I have learned a lot here by reading the replies that you received.
Sorry my education was at your cost.
I will at least weigh all sealed boxes individually before sending them in to a TPG.
Let us know if there is an update.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Thank you! It’s helpful to understand the process.
PCGS has reached out via email and let me know that they are opening an investigation and that the head of security is looking into the matter. They said I should expect followup in about one business day.
Hoping for the best and I appreciate the responsiveness on their end.
Best of luck to you
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Was the box weighed? It should be pretty easy to calculate the weight of box containing a known amount of coins.
Seems to me that the only significant factor would be whether the box weighed the same when PCGS opened it from fully sealed box and stamped seams, as it did when you shipped it which would show on your receipt.
Over on the collectible card side there have been fraud issues of resealed boxes/cases of sports/non-sports material. I've been a victim myself. Fortunately just once. So any scenario involving many hands is quite feasible for a negative result. Hope you reach a positive result to your issue.
That is a possibility - one open question to PCGS was whether the sealed US Mint box was present but contained no coins or different coins. If that’s the case, I will pursue the party which sold me the sealed box. This would actually be the easiest problem to solve.
Does PCGS weigh the boxes at arrival? If the box is light, that would narrow it down to a USPS issue.
ALL of the 2021 Morgan’s are “first strike” because they sold out prior to shipping them and were all essentially shipped at once - all of them actually qualify so I don’t see the point.
Wasn't there a subsequent wave?
Wanting to hear more on this... Do they? And interesting situation for sure...
This HAS actually happened to me one time. The box arrived un-tampered from the US Mint, but the coin was missing.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
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All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
You can tell if a box was opened or not come on. Many have tried but you can see it was opened. This is something that needs to be looked into. Something happened and needs to be fixed or it will continue to happen until they get caught. And even though we say big deal about the label well it does make a difference when selling. Go look at what things sell for in the regular blue label and then a 1st strike label. Anyway needs to be fix somewhere there is a broken link.
I for one have a bunch of boxes and I’m taking them to the show and going over ea one as we me and pcgs opens them. Every name and what is in the box is on ea box so if it is short on my side I will know at that time, I look at every box I buy to make sure it was not opened. Most if not all of my box’s are from board members so I feel I can trust ea one of them. Mistakes can happen but never was a board member and was always fixed if it was.
Hoard the keys.
As to the PCGS Video
I doubt that PCGS would ever release that to anyone, as it would expose parts of their own internal security protocols. They might not even show a USPS Postal Inspector (law enforcement officer) their video - but if they did, they would probably only allow viewing of the video and certainly would not provide a copy unless a warrant was issued for a copy.
As to Registered mail
As others have eluded to, the USPS takes the security of USPS Registered Mail VERY seriously. So much so, the US Government allows for the mailing of Classified Material, up to the SECRET level, by utilizing USPS Registered Mail (It's double wrapped, with addresses on both packages and the classification or indication of any classified material inside, is in no way disclosed on the outer package).
BST references available on request
This week HA sent me three package registered. I was shocked that the delivery guy just dropped two packages on the door step and one in the mail box. I was waiting for those packages, by the time I open the door he was in his car already. I just can't believe he did not ask for signature. So if you send something valuable make sure you insure it.
Are you sure PCGS said the internal box containing the coins was missing or did they mean the internal box had no coins. If it is the latter mystery solved - your aftermarket seller of the mint box ripped you off or the mint ripped him off before he sold it to you.
It's sounding more like this is the case. consider the clues:
-you're positive all the mint sealed boxes were sent to PCGS
-You bought the mint sealed box on the aftermarket.
-PCGS would not rip you off.
-if registered package had been tampered with PCGS would not have accepted it.
You need clarification on exactly what PCGS received: No sealed mint box containing the missing coins or a mint sealed box containing no coins. Put the thought that PCGS ripped you off out of your mind and focus on the real possibilities.
Hopefully, the video will answer the question as to whether a box was missing, as opposed to coins in the box.
The last sentence in your post sounds unfair to @J2035, as I don’t recall seeing him mention the possibility that PCGS might have ripped him off - only that they might have “made some kind of mistake during unpacking”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have asked for that clarification with that thought in mind however I am positive that all the boxes I sent contained coins - they all had the correct weight and an empty 6 coin box would have been fairly obvious.
Edited to add that I had done other deals with these 3rd party sellers and those deals went smoothly.
At this point I’m waiting on PCGS investigation. I’m not accusing anyone of anything until that is complete.
Thank you @MFeld. I’m definitely not accusing PCGS of any nefarious activity - but I do believe innocent mistakes can sometimes happen. I am happy with PCGS responsiveness to date.