My experiment with MS70 on IHC's.

relicsncoins

Some years ago when ms70 treatment of proof Indian head cents was being discussed on these forums in depth, I decided to do my own experiment on a low value AU-58 to low MS IHC. The coin I chose was not a proof but rather a BN business strike example with a rather ugly scratch. The before and after photos are quite telling of the effects.

Prior to treatment.

After treatment.

Walkerguy21D

Well done, thanks for taking the time to post this.

lkeigwin

Uh oh. Here we go again.
Lance.

BaronVonBaugh

There are probably a lot of coins out there that have been exposed to that or one of several other things that coin shops used to sell. They may still sell but I believe such things have fallen out of favor these days.

jessewvu

You missed a spot.

Jzyskowski1

“ Doctor, doctor tell me the news, I’ve got a bad case of changing you. “🙀😂

ricko

I see the tattle tale blue showing clearly.... Cheers, RickO

kaz

What, exactly, IS MS70? a detergent? a hydrocarbon? inquiring minds.....

cameonut2011

Some argue that the color was there all along and “hidden” under surface contaminants. I think that reasoning is analogous to saying a bleach blonde really had blond hair underneath all along. 😉

Desert Moon

@cameonut2011 said:
Some argue that the color was there all along and “hidden” under surface contaminants. I think that reasoning is analogous to saying a bleach blonde really had blond hair underneath all along. 😉

Yes here we go again but myths on what MS70 persist it seems.

Here is my experiment with MS70 below, the blue color that resulted went away with time so was not something resulting in permanent color change to the coin. Apparently it depends on what is on the surface at the time of application. The OP's experiment above is typical in that patina (probably mostly organic) is stripped off and the underlying toning is revealed and is classic thin film toning on the metal that is seen on copper all of the time resulting from natural toning over time, even when MS70 is not applied. MS70 is an alkaline detergent with a pH of around 13 (a surfactant), no way it can permanently cause colorful toning on a coin simply by washing it in this detergent, it can tho' remove patina or cause temporary color change by reacting with the surface contaminants and as my experiment below shows, that color fades with time as it essentially evaporates showing it is a volatile compound.

relicsncoins

@spacehayduke said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Some argue that the color was there all along and “hidden” under surface contaminants. I think that reasoning is analogous to saying a bleach blonde really had blond hair underneath all along. 😉

Yes here we go again but myths on what MS70 can do persist it seems.

Here is my experiment with MS70 below, the blue color that resulted went away with time so was not something resulting in permanent color change to the coin. Apparently it depends on what is on the surface at the time of application. The OP's experiment above is typical in that patina (probably mostly organic) is stripped off and the underlying toning is revealed and is classic thin film toning on the metal that is seen on copper all of the time resulting from natural toning over time, even when MS70 is not applied. MS70 is an alkaline detergent with a pH of around 13 (a surfactant), no way it can permanently cause colorful toning on a coin simply by washing it in this detergent, it can tho' remove patina or cause temporary color change by reacting with the surface contaminants and as my experiment below shows, that color fades with time as it essentially evaporates showing it is a volatile compound.

My experiment was from 2014. I'll see if I can find the coin and see what it looks like today.

DRUNNER

MS70 was designed as a surfactant to clean driving range gold balls (initially). It has grown into this unique sub-market for coin afficionados. It is primarily a detergent. I also stayed away from the discussion years ago . . . knowing the truth but unwilling to accept the flak for any posts . . . .

relicsncoins

@DRUNNER said:
MS70 was designed as a surfactant to clean driving range gold balls (initially). It has grown into this unique sub-market for coin afficionados. It is primarily a detergent. I also stayed away from the discussion years ago . . . knowing the truth but unwilling to accept the flak for any posts . . . .

Do they still make it? I thought I read somewhere that it had been discontinued.

Steven59

Definitely makes a difference?

Type2

You know the carpet needs to match the drapes thing. 😳

Type2

@relicsncoins said:

@spacehayduke said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Some argue that the color was there all along and “hidden” under surface contaminants. I think that reasoning is analogous to saying a bleach blonde really had blond hair underneath all along. 😉

Yes here we go again but myths on what MS70 can do persist it seems.

Here is my experiment with MS70 below, the blue color that resulted went away with time so was not something resulting in permanent color change to the coin. Apparently it depends on what is on the surface at the time of application. The OP's experiment above is typical in that patina (probably mostly organic) is stripped off and the underlying toning is revealed and is classic thin film toning on the metal that is seen on copper all of the time resulting from natural toning over time, even when MS70 is not applied. MS70 is an alkaline detergent with a pH of around 13 (a surfactant), no way it can permanently cause colorful toning on a coin simply by washing it in this detergent, it can tho' remove patina or cause temporary color change by reacting with the surface contaminants and as my experiment below shows, that color fades with time as it essentially evaporates showing it is a volatile compound.

My experiment was from 2014. I'll see if I can find the coin and see what it looks like today.

Now when you find it put it in some acetone let see what happens. Now we might as well talk about TB or not TB that is the question. Turning dog in to show dog.

Jzyskowski1

YUPPERS 👍🏼

jesbroken

@spacehayduke said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Some argue that the color was there all along and “hidden” under surface contaminants. I think that reasoning is analogous to saying a bleach blonde really had blond hair underneath all along. 😉

Yes here we go again but myths on what MS70 persist it seems.

Here is my experiment with MS70 below, the blue color that resulted went away with time so was not something resulting in permanent color change to the coin. Apparently it depends on what is on the surface at the time of application. The OP's experiment above is typical in that patina (probably mostly organic) is stripped off and the underlying toning is revealed and is classic thin film toning on the metal that is seen on copper all of the time resulting from natural toning over time, even when MS70 is not applied. MS70 is an alkaline detergent with a pH of around 13 (a surfactant), no way it can permanently cause colorful toning on a coin simply by washing it in this detergent, it can tho' remove patina or cause temporary color change by reacting with the surface contaminants and as my experiment below shows, that color fades with time as it essentially evaporates showing it is a volatile compound.

I would prefer the BEFORE 1/2 Cent over either of the others. These photos do allow one to see that the detergent does remove a coating of dirt, grime, or other contaminant to reveal what lies underneath and in this case not complimentary.
Jim

I have a bottle of MS70 that has never been used that I purchased when these very discussions raged on. I planned on using it on junk cents to see and just never did. It is probably no good for anything after all these years, so I will throw it away.
Jim

Picker1954

There's a seller on ebay whose CWTs, Indians and Lincolns all have the same color, brown, with a slightly blue tinge. 99% are graded by NGC. The ones that didn't get slabbed , because I assume they got bodybagged, are sold raw. Those you can see really bad toning, scratches from old cleanings etc.

Desert Moon

@jesbroken said:

@spacehayduke said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Some argue that the color was there all along and “hidden” under surface contaminants. I think that reasoning is analogous to saying a bleach blonde really had blond hair underneath all along. 😉

Yes here we go again but myths on what MS70 persist it seems.

Here is my experiment with MS70 below, the blue color that resulted went away with time so was not something resulting in permanent color change to the coin. Apparently it depends on what is on the surface at the time of application. The OP's experiment above is typical in that patina (probably mostly organic) is stripped off and the underlying toning is revealed and is classic thin film toning on the metal that is seen on copper all of the time resulting from natural toning over time, even when MS70 is not applied. MS70 is an alkaline detergent with a pH of around 13 (a surfactant), no way it can permanently cause colorful toning on a coin simply by washing it in this detergent, it can tho' remove patina or cause temporary color change by reacting with the surface contaminants and as my experiment below shows, that color fades with time as it essentially evaporates showing it is a volatile compound.

I would prefer the BEFORE 1/2 Cent over either of the others. These photos do allow one to see that the detergent does remove a coating of dirt, grime, or other contaminant to reveal what lies underneath and in this case not complimentary.
Jim

I have a bottle of MS70 that has never been used that I purchased when these very discussions raged on. I planned on using it on junk cents to see and just never did. It is probably no good for anything after all these years, so I will throw it away.
Jim

I preferred the before look too. I used it in the experiment because it was heavily cleaned (in an ANACS details holder when cracked for the exp), you can see parallel lines in the obv right field in the after image. So it became the sacrificial lamb.........

Jzyskowski1

Hopefully one of you can experiment a little Post the results, maybe some pictures of the process. There’s not alot going on daily around here and I’m sure they would be appreciated.
Check your old bottle for an expiration date. I kinda think the stuff is fairly stable but check the label. Could be interesting for you to dip a few and some one with a newer bottle dip some. Comparison! Thanks

Type2

Then there will be a boat load of new toned junk coins on the market and new collectors buy them. I know some here do this to see what happens then we have a idea of how and what to look for when we see it we know to pass on that coin. But others will use it for scamming others. This is why most here don’t like it posted there are more lookers then members posting here.

But that’s just me dumb Type2 thinking.

Dave99B

I see a lot of straight graded NGC IHCs that look like the ‘after’ coin. They get chased hard on eBay & GC. Worrisome.

Dave

Walkerguy21D

I treated this one about 18 years ago, stored in a 2x2, and it has changed very little. Actually looks quite nice and more natural in hand than I could capture, but I was trying to show the blue frost around the rim:

WAYNEAS

Users of this product will get no support from me.
No matter what, it is a deceptive means to sell a coin at a higher price than what it is really worth.
Wayne

SimpleCollector

Thanks for the examples. I have been asking similar questions about surface treatments like this because I have seen a number of CWTs both recently getting authenticated and also some ones that are in older holders with what i feel is unnatural surface conditions. I have been trying to understand short term, and long term affects and how to best identify and understand what one is buying.

With CWT’s I remember like 6 years ago when I went into my local coin shop, he had a custom made holder that he had just bought with 40 CWT’s in slots. He let me look and pick some which I did. Many were dusty and crusty. He indicated that he would prep the remainder before selling them. As someone mentioned above, he had some sort of product that he would use to enhance their appearance.

Now years later, as I try to find as original as I can pieces, I am seeing more and more cwt with questionable appearances. I think the problem may be worse with cwt, as due to the small numbers and conditions, many were in a dusty crusty condition.

I am interested to learn more and see examples of older copper pieces.

nwcoast

Interesting thread.
I had known about the blue presentation being fairly common but it’s excellent to see the progression over time.
I have a proof indian cent that to my eyes really looks acceptable. I purchased it raw and it came out of an old Whitman album filled with business strikes.
Surprisingly, when I submitted it, it came back “questionable color”.
I wonder if this stuff may have something to do with that? Does it leave residue?
Maybe I should post that coin to a dedicated thread?
My coin has no blue though.
Anything that is beyond mere conservation and removal of surface containments, is off limits in my book.

MsMorrisine

Don’t take my word for it
I’ve heard some Whitman toners come back AT

cameonut2011

@spacehayduke said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Some argue that the color was there all along and “hidden” under surface contaminants. I think that reasoning is analogous to saying a bleach blonde really had blond hair underneath all along. 😉

Yes here we go again but myths on what MS70 persist it seems.

Here is my experiment with MS70 below, the blue color that resulted went away with time so was not something resulting in permanent color change to the coin. Apparently it depends on what is on the surface at the time of application. The OP's experiment above is typical in that patina (probably mostly organic) is stripped off and the underlying toning is revealed and is classic thin film toning on the metal that is seen on copper all of the time resulting from natural toning over time, even when MS70 is not applied. MS70 is an alkaline detergent with a pH of around 13 (a surfactant), no way it can permanently cause colorful toning on a coin simply by washing it in this detergent, it can tho' remove patina or cause temporary color change by reacting with the surface contaminants and as my experiment below shows, that color fades with time as it essentially evaporates showing it is a volatile compound.

First thank you for actually having performed a real experiment. That is much appreciated and the type of exercise the forum needs more of.

I think we all agree that KOH and the the alcohol in MS70 aren’t going to impart toning, but what about the sulfonated salts in MS70? Isn’t the molecular confirmation of sulfonates such that a surface reaction with copper (even if highly unstable) is a viable mechanism for imparting the common blue and purple toning seen on treated coins?

As chemists, I’m very interested in what you @TomB think about a plausible mechanism.

Here is the MSDS:
http://www.translinesupply.com/PDF/MDSSHEETS/MS707530.MSDS.pdf

Desert Moon

@cameonut2011 said:
I think we all agree that KOH and the the alcohol in MS70 aren’t going to impart toning, but what about the sulfonated salts in MS70? Isn’t the molecular confirmation of sulfonates such that a surface reaction with copper (even if highly unstable) is a viable mechanism for imparting the common blue and purple toning seen on treated coins?

As chemists, I’m very interested in what you @TomB think about a plausible mechanism.

Here is the MSDS:
http://www.translinesupply.com/PDF/MDSSHEETS/MS707530.MSDS.pdf

Yes that is a good question. My half cent had the blue that others have seen old coppers have from MS70 treatment - it looked like it sat on the surface rather than embedded toning of the OP's coin which I also had on a few Lincoln's after MS70 treatment (like the OP's coin) - all of the coppers I tried MS70 with resulted in different types of results implying that depending on whatever was on the surfaces dictated the outcome. For the half cent, the outcome was what you see and it went away over time implying a volatile compound. Clearly the stuff removes patina (mostly organics), can change a copper to blue by some type of reaction with something in some cases, but some blue is volatile and goes away with time, and then what, or anything else it does, like reaction with metal or a different type of compound deposited on the surface of a copper is an open question. In either case, ms70 is a caustic detergent, and contains S (NaOH makes it caustic with high pH), we are asking an oxidizing agent to react with Cu metal and produce a reduced product (XS) I am thinking to get the thin film toning that seems to be embedded rather than on top of the surface. Oxidized compounds of S are not 'shiny' and would tend to look like they lay on the surface I think maybe like my blue half cent?

Sulfur is clearly something that bonds with Cu and Ag. For the sulfonated salts in MS70, the open question is would it produce oxidized compounds (XSO2, XSO4, etc.) or reduced compounds (XS), and how would that change a metal surface if it does, or would it just leave something on it? Then the question is, what are the kinetics of the reaction at room T and is there enough time to react with metal in the coin or just surface contaminants? I have tried to look at the literature on this issue but these papers are really focused on big industrial and metallurgical applications and they never seem to care about or mention color changes associated with reaction.

I would love to hear a specialist in these kinds of chemical reactions weigh in but I have never seen that in these discussions........

Best, SH

relicsncoins

Here is that same coin 8 years later. I found it today, it's been sitting in a flip in a binder since 2014 when I took the original photos. Full disclosure, the original photos were with a Coolpix 5000 which I no longer have. These photos are with an I phone 11.

Picker1954

My CWT

Aforementioned ebay seller's

MsMorrisine

Two pics where years have passed on two coins

I like neither result

tcollects

you gotta start with Ms/pf 65+ with the orange peel or dusty texture, then go back 10-20 years when pcgs and ngc were blessing this chemistry, good names made fortunes

edited to add... The tpg guarantees only cover the grade, not a premium for color, so that 81-s rainbow Morgan with level chromatics lol or whatever is guaranteed to be a $100 coin, just like an 05 66 electric blue cent is a $100 coin, that's my understanding of it anyway

jesbroken

Here's a 7 year sidebyside comparison of @relicsncoins 1902 IHC MS70 result. Not saying that the MS70 didn't cause the color or that it did, but that it definitely changed overtime and most of the color pattern was still evident with the aging process. JMO
Jim

jesbroken

Another interesting fact: right now on GC there are 121 IHC's selling over the next 2-3 weeks and all of the blue toned coins are NGC. Never had heard this re:NGC having most of the blued IHC's until today. Of course I have never bought a blue toned Indian Head Cent. Not saying that blue is definitely AT as that is not in my area of study and I have no evidence of such a characterization.
Jim

NewEnglandNotes

Here's a large cent I picked up a few years ago in an antique shop for $15. I had a feeling it might have been messed with, but for that price I figured it wasn't too bad a gamble. Safe to say it's been treated with MS70 or something similar?

relicsncoins

@jesbroken said:
Here's a 7 year sidebyside comparison of @relicsncoins 1902 IHC MS70 result. Not saying that the MS70 didn't cause the color or that it did, but that it definitely changed overtime and most of the color pattern was still evident with the aging process. JMO
Jim

Thanks Jim, I'm pretty illiterate when it comes to photo formatting and stuff. That's a good side by side comparison.
JJ

relicsncoins

@jesbroken said:
Another interesting fact: right now on GC there are 121 IHC's selling over the next 2-3 weeks and all of the blue toned coins are NGC. Never had heard this re:NGC having most of the blued IHC's until today. Of course I have never bought a blue toned Indian Head Cent. Not saying that blue is definitely AT as that is not in my area of study and I have no evidence of such a characterization.
Jim

I've heard a theory that some blue toned proof Indian Heads that are original were toned by the tissue paper they were issued in and stored in. I'm not sure how one could ever prove that theory unless someone had possession of an example that was passed down through the family.

Type2

I’m sure there are all kinds of ways to do it, who was it here on the board that put her ASE in her underwear drawer and they toned kind a nice. But should we do it is really the question?

jesbroken

I know for a fact that storing silver coins in an old matchbox would tone the coins quite crazily. When I was a kid, a matchbox was easily acquired and throw out the sulfur sticks and voila toning box. But back then a toned coin was a ruined coin.
Jim

vulcanize

@relicsncoins said:

@DRUNNER said:
MS70 was designed as a surfactant to clean driving range gold balls (initially). It has grown into this unique sub-market for coin afficionados. It is primarily a detergent. I also stayed away from the discussion years ago . . . knowing the truth but unwilling to accept the flak for any posts . . . .

Do they still make it? I thought I read somewhere that it had been discontinued.

https://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/product/ms-70.html

jmlanzaf

@kaz said:
What, exactly, IS MS70? a detergent? a hydrocarbon? inquiring minds.....

Detergent. Aqueous.

jmlanzaf

@WAYNEAS said:
Users of this product will get no support from me.
No matter what, it is a deceptive means to sell a coin at a higher price than what it is really worth.
Wayne

Copper bluing aside. Why is washing dirt off a coin "deceptive"? It's archival.

[I would suggest never using it on copper, but the way. But I see no issue with silver or nickel. ]

jmlanzaf

@cameonut2011 said:

@spacehayduke said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Some argue that the color was there all along and “hidden” under surface contaminants. I think that reasoning is analogous to saying a bleach blonde really had blond hair underneath all along. 😉

Yes here we go again but myths on what MS70 persist it seems.

Here is my experiment with MS70 below, the blue color that resulted went away with time so was not something resulting in permanent color change to the coin. Apparently it depends on what is on the surface at the time of application. The OP's experiment above is typical in that patina (probably mostly organic) is stripped off and the underlying toning is revealed and is classic thin film toning on the metal that is seen on copper all of the time resulting from natural toning over time, even when MS70 is not applied. MS70 is an alkaline detergent with a pH of around 13 (a surfactant), no way it can permanently cause colorful toning on a coin simply by washing it in this detergent, it can tho' remove patina or cause temporary color change by reacting with the surface contaminants and as my experiment below shows, that color fades with time as it essentially evaporates showing it is a volatile compound.

First thank you for actually having performed a real experiment. That is much appreciated and the type of exercise the forum needs more of.

I think we all agree that KOH and the the alcohol in MS70 aren’t going to impart toning, but what about the sulfonated salts in MS70? Isn’t the molecular confirmation of sulfonates such that a surface reaction with copper (even if highly unstable) is a viable mechanism for imparting the common blue and purple toning seen on treated coins?

As chemists, I’m very interested in what you @TomB think about a plausible mechanism.

Here is the MSDS:
http://www.translinesupply.com/PDF/MDSSHEETS/MS707530.MSDS.pdf

The surface of copper coins is not copper. It is copper sulfide mostly. You can strip this off the surface with hydroxide.

jmlanzaf

@spacehayduke said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Some argue that the color was there all along and “hidden” under surface contaminants. I think that reasoning is analogous to saying a bleach blonde really had blond hair underneath all along. 😉

Yes here we go again but myths on what MS70 persist it seems.

Here is my experiment with MS70 below, the blue color that resulted went away with time so was not something resulting in permanent color change to the coin. Apparently it depends on what is on the surface at the time of application. The OP's experiment above is typical in that patina (probably mostly organic) is stripped off and the underlying toning is revealed and is classic thin film toning on the metal that is seen on copper all of the time resulting from natural toning over time, even when MS70 is not applied. MS70 is an alkaline detergent with a pH of around 13 (a surfactant), no way it can permanently cause colorful toning on a coin simply by washing it in this detergent, it can tho' remove patina or cause temporary color change by reacting with the surface contaminants and as my experiment below shows, that color fades with time as it essentially evaporates showing it is a volatile compound.

Volatile is not the same as unstable. The layer may have thickened over time resulting in the color disappearing (becoming brown).

WAYNEAS

@jmlanzaf said:

@WAYNEAS said:
Users of this product will get no support from me.
No matter what, it is a deceptive means to sell a coin at a higher price than what it is really worth.
Wayne

Copper bluing aside. Why is washing dirt off a coin "deceptive"? It's archival.

[I would suggest never using it on copper, but the way. But I see no issue with silver or nickel. ]

IMO
Why clean off the dirt if the coin is going to be sold?
If you keep it in your own personal collection, fine it is yours to do what you want with it.
By cleaning it, it fosters looks like a higher grade coin.
When adding eye appeal by coloring it with MS70 (blue patina, which fades over time as @spacehayduke's pictures show) so it sells faster and at a higher price, then you are being deceptive.
There are many coins that have been rejected by TPGs as Questionable Color.
Yes, many fall thru the gaps when graded but deception is deception.
Would you buy a coin for its eye appealing look, only to have it disappear a few years later?
I would not.
Wayne