@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
@Gazes said:
Young collectors have found our hobby and seem ready to not only keep it going but make it stronger than ever.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but how is this determined?
Likely anecdotal evidence that I have also seen. 2 witnesses! 😂
Lol. 2 witnesses with perception filters set to interpret the anecdotes in one specific way.
It will all be much clearer in hindsight.
This is not to argue either side of the point. There are a lot of forces at play in the middle of a fairly tumultuous economic and social time frame. It could be a very different landscape in 5 or 10 years.
@Gazes said:
Young collectors have found our hobby and seem ready to not only keep it going but make it stronger than ever.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but how is this determined?
Likely anecdotal evidence that I have also seen. 2 witnesses! 😂
Lol. 2 witnesses with perception filters set to interpret the anecdotes in one specific way.
It will all be much clearer in hindsight.
This is not to argue either side of the point. There are a lot of forces at play in the middle of a fairly tumultuous economic and social time frame. It could be a very different landscape in 5 or 10 years.
Higher prices are somewhat a symptom of the "everything" asset bubble, but I also believe there are more collectors out there now. This boom in collectors helps the hobby overall, whether you're buying or selling. Aren't we all here to talk and share about coins?
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market. Someone selling a top 5 registry set of US gold would be indicative of the premium coin market. Someone seeking a unique 1794 $1 or a 1913 Liberty nickel is only indicative of the trophy coin market.
If I may again refer to stamps. Inverted Jenny's have continued to go up at the same time that the generic stamp market dropped by a factor of 10 or 20 and when the premium stamp market (Columbians, Zeps) dropped by a factor or 2 to 5.
@Gazes said:
Young collectors have found our hobby and seem ready to not only keep it going but make it stronger than ever.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but how is this determined?
Likely anecdotal evidence that I have also seen. 2 witnesses! 😂
Lol. 2 witnesses with perception filters set to interpret the anecdotes in one specific way.
It will all be much clearer in hindsight.
This is not to argue either side of the point. There are a lot of forces at play in the middle of a fairly tumultuous economic and social time frame. It could be a very different landscape in 5 or 10 years.
With all due respect that article says NOTHING about the future of anything. It is an interview with 4 random collectors. I suppose you would also say that article proves that 20-somethings don't understand binary and hate crypto.
I can find you 4 20somethings that abhor collecting. I know 4 20 somethings that think the police all want to kill them because of their skin color.
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I would restate this:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
@Gazes said:
Young collectors have found our hobby and seem ready to not only keep it going but make it stronger than ever.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but how is this determined?
Likely anecdotal evidence that I have also seen. 2 witnesses! 😂
Lol. 2 witnesses with perception filters set to interpret the anecdotes in one specific way.
It will all be much clearer in hindsight.
This is not to argue either side of the point. There are a lot of forces at play in the middle of a fairly tumultuous economic and social time frame. It could be a very different landscape in 5 or 10 years.
With all due respect that article says NOTHING about the future of anything. It is an interview with 4 random collectors. I suppose you would also say that article proves that 20-somethings don't understand binary and hate crypto.
I can find you 4 20somethings that abhor collecting. I know 4 20 somethings that think the police all want to kill them because of their skin color.
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
No. There are plenty of $200 PCGS CAC coins. Is an MS64 CAC Pilgrim commemorative a "trophy coin"?
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
No. There are plenty of $200 PCGS CAC coins. Is an MS64 CAC Pilgrim commemorative a "trophy coin"?
You're right, that's inexact.
I'm thinking of the 5-6 figure PCGS+CAC coins that are going through the roof now.
Though I am hurt you may not think my Pogue PCGS FR02 Pilgrim commemorative is a "trophy coin"
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I would restate this:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
Now you are picking nits like a pro. That middle of the road market is the "broader" market because it represents the vast majority of collections.
I saw 4 estates last week. 3 of them were completely raw and had NO single coin worth more than $200. The 4th was mostly slabbed with higher end coins. That is pretty much what I see out there ask the time.
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
No. There are plenty of $200 PCGS CAC coins. Is an MS64 CAC Pilgrim commemorative a "trophy coin"?
You're right, that's inexact.
I'm thinking of the 5-6 figure PCGS+CAC coins that are going through the roof now.
Though I am hurt you don't think my Pogue PCGS FR02 Pilgrim commemorative is a "trophy coin"
6 figure coins may be trophy coins but that's based on value not storage.
I would not say that 5 figure coins are all trophies.
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I would restate this:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
Now you are picking nits like a pro. That middle of the road market is the "broader" market because it represents the vast majority of collections.
I saw 4 estates last week. 3 of them were completely raw and had NO single coin worth more than $200. The 4th was mostly slabbed with higher end coins. That is pretty much what I see out there ask the time.
You are claiming something represents the broader market. I don't think the "broader" market term is meaningful given the bifurcation we've been seeing for over a decade.
It's okay if you feel that way. It's just not a meaningful term to me.
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
No. There are plenty of $200 PCGS CAC coins. Is an MS64 CAC Pilgrim commemorative a "trophy coin"?
You're right, that's inexact.
I'm thinking of the 5-6 figure PCGS+CAC coins that are going through the roof now.
Though I am hurt you don't think my Pogue PCGS FR02 Pilgrim commemorative is a "trophy coin"
6 figure coins may be trophy coins but that's based on value not storage.
I would not say that 5 figure coins are all trophies.
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
I’m not sure I understand you. But either way, you eft out the part about a trophy coin not needing to be PCGS graded, either.
My goal wasn't to be complete, just to indicate the high performing category can be more than "nearly unique" by combining, premium, trophy, etc. I felt the high end category was being split into many segments while the middle of the road coins were presented as one large segment, so it wasn't done evenly.
Thank you for adding more to the mix!
Personally, I wouldn’t try to equate or include “trophy coins” with any other categories. Many areas of the market have moved more or less in tandem, but I prefer to avoid generalizations and conclusions based on individual observations and perceptions.
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
I’m not sure I understand you. But either way, you eft out the part about a trophy coin not needing to be PCGS graded, either.
Personally, I wouldn’t try to equate or include “trophy coins” with any other categories. Many areas of the market have moved more or less in tandem, but I prefer to avoid generalizations and conclusions based on individual observations and perceptions.
This!
True "trophy" coins need to be a very select group: 1804 dollars, 1913 Liberty nickels, 1933 double eagles etc. The whole connotation of "trophy" is that it is a ULTRA-rare coin that comes with bragging rights. Trophy coins have always moved in their own stratosphere.
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
I’m not sure I understand you. But either way, you eft out the part about a trophy coin not needing to be PCGS graded, either.
My goal wasn't to be complete, just to indicate the high performing category can be more than "nearly unique" by combining, premium, trophy, etc. I felt the high end category was being split into many segments while the middle of the road coins were presented as one large segment, so it wasn't done evenly.
Thank you for adding more to the mix!
Personally, I wouldn’t try to equate or include “trophy coins” with any other categories. Many areas of the market have moved more or less in tandem, but I prefer to avoid generalizations and conclusions based on individual observations and perceptions.
What fun is that
A lot of that "high performing" category are condition rarities. Those are not necessarily "trophy" coins at all.
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
I’m not sure I understand you. But either way, you eft out the part about a trophy coin not needing to be PCGS graded, either.
My goal wasn't to be complete, just to indicate the high performing category can be more than "nearly unique" by combining, premium, trophy, etc. I felt the high end category was being split into many segments while the middle of the road coins were presented as one large segment, so it wasn't done evenly.
Thank you for adding more to the mix!
Personally, I wouldn’t try to equate or include “trophy coins” with any other categories. Many areas of the market have moved more or less in tandem, but I prefer to avoid generalizations and conclusions based on individual observations and perceptions.
What fun is that
A lot of that "high performing" category are condition rarities. Those are not necessarily "trophy" coins at all.
But they are performing well.
You are making a distinction that I'm not making. It's okay for you to make it, but I don't need to.
To me, bifurcation, or two segments, is good enough
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
I’m not sure I understand you. But either way, you eft out the part about a trophy coin not needing to be PCGS graded, either.
My goal wasn't to be complete, just to indicate the high performing category can be more than "nearly unique" by combining, premium, trophy, etc. I felt the high end category was being split into many segments while the middle of the road coins were presented as one large segment, so it wasn't done evenly.
Thank you for adding more to the mix!
Personally, I wouldn’t try to equate or include “trophy coins” with any other categories. Many areas of the market have moved more or less in tandem, but I prefer to avoid generalizations and conclusions based on individual observations and perceptions.
What fun is that
A lot of that "high performing" category are condition rarities. Those are not necessarily "trophy" coins at all.
But are performing well.
You are making a distinction that I'm not making. It's okay for you to make it, but I don't need to.
That is what started the discussion. Even if PCGS CAC condition census gold were dropping like a rock, Bruce's trophy coins would not need to follow. Most coins require 2 or more bidders to drive up the price. Trophy coins only require ONE. Notice that Bruce sold his coins directly to an interested party for a negotiated price. [In fact, didn't he try to sell one of them at auction and have it not reach the reserve?] But a true trophy is so rare/unique that if you have the only one available, you can set the terms of sale.
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
I’m not sure I understand you. But either way, you eft out the part about a trophy coin not needing to be PCGS graded, either.
My goal wasn't to be complete, just to indicate the high performing category can be more than "nearly unique" by combining, premium, trophy, etc. I felt the high end category was being split into many segments while the middle of the road coins were presented as one large segment, so it wasn't done evenly.
Thank you for adding more to the mix!
Personally, I wouldn’t try to equate or include “trophy coins” with any other categories. Many areas of the market have moved more or less in tandem, but I prefer to avoid generalizations and conclusions based on individual observations and perceptions.
What fun is that
A lot of that "high performing" category are condition rarities. Those are not necessarily "trophy" coins at all.
But are performing well.
You are making a distinction that I'm not making. It's okay for you to make it, but I don't need to.
That is what started the discussion. Even if PCGS CAC condition census gold were dropping like a rock, Bruce's trophy coins would not need to follow. Most coins require 2 or more bidders to drive up the price. Trophy coins only require ONE. Notice that Bruce sold his coins directly to an interested party for a negotiated price. [In fact, didn't he try to sell one of them at auction and have it not reach the reserve?] But a true trophy is so rare/unique that if you have the only one available, you can set the terms of sale.
When trophy coins go to auction, as many do, they need two bidders as well.
@Gazes said:
Of course, if you had sold your coins and no longer collect and are on the forum, you are not thrilled (and will disagree with this post).
The market is certainly very hot right now, but I disagree to an extent on this as I think some people who have sold at market highs and were able to make a profit may be thrilled.
Laura is recommending people sell and we've seen many top coins sell recently.
Laura has been advising to sell some of your coins that have done well NOT to sell everything including the kitchen sink.
What if you were astute enough that all your coins, including the kitchen sink, have done well?
Bruce is selling everything at a profit now which is great.
Bruce is fishing in very shallow waters. His experience is not indicative of anything in the general coin market.
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market.
I would restate that:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
I’m not sure I understand you. But either way, you eft out the part about a trophy coin not needing to be PCGS graded, either.
My goal wasn't to be complete, just to indicate the high performing category can be more than "nearly unique" by combining, premium, trophy, etc. I felt the high end category was being split into many segments while the middle of the road coins were presented as one large segment, so it wasn't done evenly.
Thank you for adding more to the mix!
Personally, I wouldn’t try to equate or include “trophy coins” with any other categories. Many areas of the market have moved more or less in tandem, but I prefer to avoid generalizations and conclusions based on individual observations and perceptions.
What fun is that
A lot of that "high performing" category are condition rarities. Those are not necessarily "trophy" coins at all.
But are performing well.
You are making a distinction that I'm not making. It's okay for you to make it, but I don't need to.
That is what started the discussion. Even if PCGS CAC condition census gold were dropping like a rock, Bruce's trophy coins would not need to follow. Most coins require 2 or more bidders to drive up the price. Trophy coins only require ONE. Notice that Bruce sold his coins directly to an interested party for a negotiated price. [In fact, didn't he try to sell one of them at auction and have it not reach the reserve?] But a true trophy is so rare/unique that if you have the only one available, you can set the terms of sale.
When trophy coins go to auction, as many do, they need two bidders as well.
At auction, yes...unless there is a suitably high reserve. But they don't even NEED to go to auction to achieve results. That's my point.
@Gazes said:
Young collectors have found our hobby and seem ready to not only keep it going but make it stronger than ever.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but how is this determined?
Like most opinions on this forum---it is my opinion but I do think it is based on objective observations. We have had a number of young collectors post on this forum about the growing popularity of collecting among young people. They also point out that many young collectors don't go to forums like this but use other social media (given some of the posts on this forum that may not be a bad decision . The fact that the NYT even ran an article about young collectors is relevant to me. My own son who was a non collector went to his first year at a New England University joined a coin club and I was surprised when I spoke by zoom how many college collectors showed for my talk. Seth Chandler's Witter Coin University for YNs was a huge success with a ton of interest.
Those are some of my thoughts. For those who dispute the growing popularity among YNs I would turn it around and say other than just being negative---what basis do you have that the popularity of coins is not going in the right direction for YNs?
@Zoins said:
When trophy coins go to auction, as many do, they need two bidders as well.
At auction, yes...unless there is a suitably high reserve. But they don't even NEED to go to auction to achieve results. That's my point.
That's a good point... but many non-trophy coins don't need to go to auction to achieve results as well. That's what dealers do, even for the "broader" market
@Gazes said:
Young collectors have found our hobby and seem ready to not only keep it going but make it stronger than ever.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but how is this determined?
Like most opinions on this forum---it is my opinion but I do think it is based on objective observations. We have had a number of young collectors post on this forum about the growing popularity of collecting among young people. They also point out that many young collectors don't go to forums like this but use other social media (given some of the posts on this forum that may not be a bad decision . The fact that the NYT even ran an article about young collectors is relevant to me. My own son who was a non collector went to his first year at a New England University joined a coin club and I was surprised when I spoke by zoom how many college collectors showed for my talk. Seth Chandler's Witter Coin University for YNs was a huge success with a ton of interest.
Those are some of my thoughts. For those who dispute the growing popularity among YNs I would turn it around and say other than just being negative---what basis do you have that the popularity of coins is not going in the right direction for YNs?
I would say one concern is the decline of membership in traditional channels like the ANA and Boy Scouts.
However, this may be offset by Instagram and other non-traditional platforms which are very popular and should be used to encourage the next generation of collectors.
@Gazes said:
Young collectors have found our hobby and seem ready to not only keep it going but make it stronger than ever.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but how is this determined?
Like most opinions on this forum---it is my opinion but I do think it is based on objective observations. We have had a number of young collectors post on this forum about the growing popularity of collecting among young people. They also point out that many young collectors don't go to forums like this but use other social media (given some of the posts on this forum that may not be a bad decision . The fact that the NYT even ran an article about young collectors is relevant to me. My own son who was a non collector went to his first year at a New England University joined a coin club and I was surprised when I spoke by zoom how many college collectors showed for my talk. Seth Chandler's Witter Coin University for YNs was a huge success with a ton of interest.
Those are some of my thoughts. For those who dispute the growing popularity among YNs I would turn it around and say other than just being negative---what basis do you have that the popularity of coins is not going in the right direction for YNs?
I've posted the market research before. I'm not going to dig it up again. But it showed the median age of collectors at over 60. Even most new collectors are in their 30s and 40s not in their teens and twenties.
A recent market report - details behind a pay wall - showed a 1.6% annual increase in collectors (not necessarily younger) in the US and a higher increase in Europe.
There IS market research out there if anyone wants to go by anything other than anecdotes. But, if we're being honest, most people just want evidence that supports their internal bias.
The good news is that recent research shows an actual increase (1.6% in the US) rather than a decline. You'd need to look at the more detailed research ($5000 to purchase the full report!) to know what that collector base consists of. I do think this forum is a distortion of the broader market. 90% of all collectors never spend even $1000 on a single coin. X% (I'm not sure the number) never buy anything but proof/mint sets and commemoratives. I will even go so far as to say that the MAJORITY of collectors don't even know what CAC is.
My crystal ball is forever broken. If coin collecting grows, that's fine with me. I just think it is prudent to consider the negative factors as well as the positive factors.
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..." When talking about the coin market in general (and where you're positioned in it), this sounds ripe for Confirmation Bias to me. One indication of the market is the PCGS 3000 Index. It's certainly not the ONLY indicator, but I'm not willing to pay $5k for the research! If you started buying coins at the height of the market (around 2013... ) you're likely welcoming higher prices. If you started buying in 2018-19... you're likely moaning about those higher prices. Welcome to Life!
I'm not a dealer, and I'm certainly not a speculator/investor. As a hobbyist, higher prices means one of a few things... either I lower my expectations for grade at the price I'm willing to pay, or I lower my expectations for actually winning the auctions, or I "pony up" and pay more (20-30%... more in some cases) which means I'm buying fewer coins in the long run and it will take me longer to complete a set (again, lowered expectations). But, this is just a hobby for me... I don't make my living by buying/selling/grading/flipping coins.
In the long run, I'm glad that there are more young(er) collectors being attracted to coin collecting. Regardless of whether they're collecting Mint Sets, State Quarters, or 19thC Type... I think the links to history and an appreciation of it are still something that drives numismatics in general and thus the market overall.
...just a thought...
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
@amwldcoin said:
Good luck buying any nice midgrade Barber anywhere near Price Guide! There's plenty of washed out,scratched or otherwise molested material in holders you can buy for a little under price guide!
Midgrade Barbers (and Barbers in general), with the exception of key dates, are not rare. It has been my experience that if you look diligently enough and are patient, you can find pretty much any coin that is not rare, nor on everyone's want list, at a reasonable price.
It may take awhile. It took me 4 years to find a nice MS 65 Barber Half, 8 years to find an AU 53 Heraldic Eagle Bust $ with original skin, and longer than that to find a problem free early date Capped Bust Half in MS 64. But I found them all at prices that I thought were not inflated.
The problem is that too many collectors want a particular coin NOW. Sure, you can find it, because it probably isn't rare. But if you're not patient, you'll pay more for it. It's your choice. Personally, I can wait.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Last night I bid on a coin that was probably in the condition census in the Legend auction. I put in a strong bid (would have been a record for the that date and grade). Missed out by one increment. Disappointed that I didn't get the coin but as always enjoyed the process of locating the coin, researching it, pricing it and watching the auction. I understand that our hobby is not static and the rules can change. Even missing out on a coin due to higher prices and more competition, I still feel its a great time to be a collector. That money is now set aside and I'm off to look for another great coin.
@amwldcoin said:
Good luck buying any nice midgrade Barber anywhere near Price Guide! There's plenty of washed out,scratched or otherwise molested material in holders you can buy for a little under price guide!
Midgrade Barbers (and Barbers in general), with the exception of key dates, are not rare. It has been my experience that if you look diligently enough and are patient, you can find pretty much any coin that is not rare, nor on everyone's want list, at a reasonable price.
It may take awhile. It took me 4 years to find a nice MS 65 Barber Half, 8 years to find an AU 53 Heraldic Eagle Bust $ with original skin, and longer than that to find a problem free early date Capped Bust Half in MS 64. But I found them all at prices that I thought were not inflated.
The problem is that too many collectors want a particular coin NOW. Sure, you can find it, because it probably isn't rare. But if you're not patient, you'll pay more for it. It's your choice. Personally, I can wait.
This discussion is about two different things - a type coin collection and a specific type coin set. It took 4 years to find one nice Barber. How long would it take to put together a date set or a even more challenging, date and mint mark set?
I haven't sold anything in a bit, but one coin I do keep an eye on (since I own one) is the 1908-D no motto $20 gold in MS-64. I needed a no motto for type and got that date (with a green bean) for what I thought was a song about a year and a half ago. Not a whole lot over melt at that time. Now the price is getting close to doubling, which I find interesting. Granted it's just one coin, but I've seen it for other coins in popular series as well.
@ElmerFusterpuck said:
I haven't sold anything in a bit, but one coin I do keep an eye on (since I own one) is the 1908-D no motto $20 gold in MS-64. I needed a no motto for type and got that date (with a green bean) for what I thought was a song about a year and a half ago. Not a whole lot over melt at that time. Now the price is getting close to doubling, which I find interesting. Granted it's just once coin, but I've seen it for other coins in popular series as well.
Double Eagles are on fire. I have several Liberty's in later 1890's that have doubled in the last year. Many of those traded with a small premium to melt just a year or two ago.
@amwldcoin said:
Good luck buying any nice midgrade Barber anywhere near Price Guide! There's plenty of washed out,scratched or otherwise molested material in holders you can buy for a little under price guide!
Midgrade Barbers (and Barbers in general), with the exception of key dates, are not rare. It has been my experience that if you look diligently enough and are patient, you can find pretty much any coin that is not rare, nor on everyone's want list, at a reasonable price.
It may take awhile. It took me 4 years to find a nice MS 65 Barber Half, 8 years to find an AU 53 Heraldic Eagle Bust $ with original skin, and longer than that to find a problem free early date Capped Bust Half in MS 64. But I found them all at prices that I thought were not inflated.
The problem is that too many collectors want a particular coin NOW. Sure, you can find it, because it probably isn't rare. But if you're not patient, you'll pay more for it. It's your choice. Personally, I can wait.
@jmlanzaf said:
I do think this forum is a distortion of the broader market. 90% of all collectors never spend even $1000 on a single coin. X% (I'm not sure the number) never buy anything but proof/mint sets and commemoratives. I will even go so far as to say that the MAJORITY of collectors don't even know what CAC is.
You could go further. The majority (over 50%) of collectors don't buy slabbed coins.
@jmlanzaf said:
I do think this forum is a distortion of the broader market. 90% of all collectors never spend even $1000 on a single coin. X% (I'm not sure the number) never buy anything but proof/mint sets and commemoratives. I will even go so far as to say that the MAJORITY of collectors don't even know what CAC is.
You could go further. The majority (over 50%) of collectors don't buy slabbed coins.
Using the US Mint's numbers for collectors, the majority of collectors don't pay more than face value for coins.
@jmlanzaf said:
I do think this forum is a distortion of the broader market. 90% of all collectors never spend even $1000 on a single coin. X% (I'm not sure the number) never buy anything but proof/mint sets and commemoratives. I will even go so far as to say that the MAJORITY of collectors don't even know what CAC is.
You could go further. The majority (over 50%) of collectors don't buy slabbed coins.
And, you could go further still. The majority of them are likely mint product or bullion buyers.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@amwldcoin said:
Good luck buying any nice midgrade Barber anywhere near Price Guide! There's plenty of washed out,scratched or otherwise molested material in holders you can buy for a little under price guide!
Midgrade Barbers (and Barbers in general), with the exception of key dates, are not rare. It has been my experience that if you look diligently enough and are patient, you can find pretty much any coin that is not rare, nor on everyone's want list, at a reasonable price.
It may take awhile. It took me 4 years to find a nice MS 65 Barber Half, 8 years to find an AU 53 Heraldic Eagle Bust $ with original skin, and longer than that to find a problem free early date Capped Bust Half in MS 64. But I found them all at prices that I thought were not inflated.
The problem is that too many collectors want a particular coin NOW. Sure, you can find it, because it probably isn't rare. But if you're not patient, you'll pay more for it. It's your choice. Personally, I can wait.
This discussion is about two different things - a type coin collection and a specific type coin set. It took 4 years to find one nice Barber. How long would it take to put together a date set or a even more challenging, date and mint mark set?
@amwldcoin said:
Good luck buying any nice midgrade Barber anywhere near Price Guide! There's plenty of washed out,scratched or otherwise molested material in holders you can buy for a little under price guide!
Midgrade Barbers (and Barbers in general), with the exception of key dates, are not rare. It has been my experience that if you look diligently enough and are patient, you can find pretty much any coin that is not rare, nor on everyone's want list, at a reasonable price.
It may take awhile. It took me 4 years to find a nice MS 65 Barber Half, 8 years to find an AU 53 Heraldic Eagle Bust $ with original skin, and longer than that to find a problem free early date Capped Bust Half in MS 64. But I found them all at prices that I thought were not inflated.
The problem is that too many collectors want a particular coin NOW. Sure, you can find it, because it probably isn't rare. But if you're not patient, you'll pay more for it. It's your choice. Personally, I can wait.
This discussion is about two different things - a type coin collection and a specific type coin set. It took 4 years to find one nice Barber. How long would it take to put together a date set or a even more challenging, date and mint mark set?
A set of solidly nice coins will take many years to acquire, unless you write a blank check for everything that you like when you initially see it.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
A set of solidly nice coins will take many years to acquire, unless you write a blank check for everything that you like when you initially see it.
You are telling me. I started a MS Barber date set in 2003 and just finished it. : ) It worked for me as I needed to pace myself in terms of having limited funds. I'll never be able to complete a mint mark set; but, I'm working on it anyway..
Been watching the Barrett- Jackson auto auction the past few days. It's incredible the huge prices most cars/ trucks across the board are realizing. So many six and seven million dollar vehicles in this no reserve auction. 70's trucks and SUV's and resto mods white hot as well.
Unreal
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
Been watching the Barrett- Jackson auto auction the past few days. It's incredible the huge prices most cars/ trucks across the board are realizing. So many six and seven million dollar vehicles in this no reserve auction. 70's trucks and SUV's and resto mods white hot as well.
I agree the market overall seems very strong.
Two areas specifically I’ve noticed that are WAY up are classic commems and MS Franklin’s in rattlers. Both areas seem to have about doubled in the last year-ish.
It has me strongly considering selling certain things…
@FranklinHalfAddict said:
I agree the market overall seems very strong.
Two areas specifically I’ve noticed that are WAY up are classic commems and MS Franklin’s in rattlers. Both areas seem to have about doubled in the last year-ish.
Comments
I would say Bruce has premium coins and the performance we are seeing is similar to what we see at the top end in general, with higher prices for PCGS+CAC.
Using your approach, would you say any one person's experience indicative of anything in the general coin market?
Lol. 2 witnesses with perception filters set to interpret the anecdotes in one specific way.
It will all be much clearer in hindsight.
This is not to argue either side of the point. There are a lot of forces at play in the middle of a fairly tumultuous economic and social time frame. It could be a very different landscape in 5 or 10 years.
See this article about our future
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1070191/short-free-nyt-article-about-our-future#latest
Higher prices are somewhat a symptom of the "everything" asset bubble, but I also believe there are more collectors out there now. This boom in collectors helps the hobby overall, whether you're buying or selling. Aren't we all here to talk and share about coins?
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Bruce did not have premium coins. Bruce had nearly unique coins.
Weitzmann's sale of the penny magenta says nothing about the stamp market.
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader market. Someone selling a top 5 registry set of US gold would be indicative of the premium coin market. Someone seeking a unique 1794 $1 or a 1913 Liberty nickel is only indicative of the trophy coin market.
If I may again refer to stamps. Inverted Jenny's have continued to go up at the same time that the generic stamp market dropped by a factor of 10 or 20 and when the premium stamp market (Columbians, Zeps) dropped by a factor or 2 to 5.
With all due respect that article says NOTHING about the future of anything. It is an interview with 4 random collectors. I suppose you would also say that article proves that 20-somethings don't understand binary and hate crypto.
I can find you 4 20somethings that abhor collecting. I know 4 20 somethings that think the police all want to kill them because of their skin color.
There is ZERO market research in that article.
Given the bifurcation that has been happening in the market, I don't think the "broader market" is useful the way it's being used here.
I would restate this:
Someone selling a middle of the road set of Morgans or US type set would be indicative of the broader middle-of-the-road market
I'm okay with grouping Bruce's coins with PCGS+CAC as mentioned. Do you consider all PCGS+CAC coins to be trophy coins?
4 is 100% more than 2
A “trophy coin” is a trophy coin, whether (or not) it’s been graded by PCGS and/or stickered by CAC.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree a trophy coin doesn't need to be CAC, like the Muscat and Dexter 1804 dollars.
What I'm saying is whether PCGS+CAC can be considered trophy coins even if not all trophy coins are PCGS+CAC. Make sense?
No. There are plenty of $200 PCGS CAC coins. Is an MS64 CAC Pilgrim commemorative a "trophy coin"?
You're right, that's inexact.
I'm thinking of the 5-6 figure PCGS+CAC coins that are going through the roof now.
Though I am hurt you may not think my Pogue PCGS FR02 Pilgrim commemorative is a "trophy coin"
Now you are picking nits like a pro. That middle of the road market is the "broader" market because it represents the vast majority of collections.
I saw 4 estates last week. 3 of them were completely raw and had NO single coin worth more than $200. The 4th was mostly slabbed with higher end coins. That is pretty much what I see out there ask the time.
6 figure coins may be trophy coins but that's based on value not storage.
I would not say that 5 figure coins are all trophies.
You are claiming something represents the broader market. I don't think the "broader" market term is meaningful given the bifurcation we've been seeing for over a decade.
It's okay if you feel that way. It's just not a meaningful term to me.
I also said "ones going through the roof now"
My goal wasn't to be complete, just to indicate the high performing category can be more than "nearly unique" by combining, premium, trophy, etc. I felt the high end category was being split into many segments while the middle of the road coins were presented as one large segment, so it wasn't done evenly.
Thank you for adding more to the mix!
What fun is that
This!
True "trophy" coins need to be a very select group: 1804 dollars, 1913 Liberty nickels, 1933 double eagles etc. The whole connotation of "trophy" is that it is a ULTRA-rare coin that comes with bragging rights. Trophy coins have always moved in their own stratosphere.
A lot of that "high performing" category are condition rarities. Those are not necessarily "trophy" coins at all.
But they are performing well.
You are making a distinction that I'm not making. It's okay for you to make it, but I don't need to.
To me, bifurcation, or two segments, is good enough
That is what started the discussion. Even if PCGS CAC condition census gold were dropping like a rock, Bruce's trophy coins would not need to follow. Most coins require 2 or more bidders to drive up the price. Trophy coins only require ONE. Notice that Bruce sold his coins directly to an interested party for a negotiated price. [In fact, didn't he try to sell one of them at auction and have it not reach the reserve?] But a true trophy is so rare/unique that if you have the only one available, you can set the terms of sale.
When trophy coins go to auction, as many do, they need two bidders as well.
Battle of the last worders!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
At auction, yes...unless there is a suitably high reserve. But they don't even NEED to go to auction to achieve results. That's my point.
I need something to do because I promised not to post TrueViews of awesome coins in some threads
Though I did look up and like the TrueView
Like most opinions on this forum---it is my opinion but I do think it is based on objective observations. We have had a number of young collectors post on this forum about the growing popularity of collecting among young people. They also point out that many young collectors don't go to forums like this but use other social media (given some of the posts on this forum that may not be a bad decision
. The fact that the NYT even ran an article about young collectors is relevant to me. My own son who was a non collector went to his first year at a New England University joined a coin club and I was surprised when I spoke by zoom how many college collectors showed for my talk. Seth Chandler's Witter Coin University for YNs was a huge success with a ton of interest.
Those are some of my thoughts. For those who dispute the growing popularity among YNs I would turn it around and say other than just being negative---what basis do you have that the popularity of coins is not going in the right direction for YNs?
That's a good point... but many non-trophy coins don't need to go to auction to achieve results as well. That's what dealers do, even for the "broader" market
That's great to hear @Gazes!
I would say one concern is the decline of membership in traditional channels like the ANA and Boy Scouts.
However, this may be offset by Instagram and other non-traditional platforms which are very popular and should be used to encourage the next generation of collectors.
I've posted the market research before. I'm not going to dig it up again. But it showed the median age of collectors at over 60. Even most new collectors are in their 30s and 40s not in their teens and twenties.
A recent market report - details behind a pay wall - showed a 1.6% annual increase in collectors (not necessarily younger) in the US and a higher increase in Europe.
There IS market research out there if anyone wants to go by anything other than anecdotes. But, if we're being honest, most people just want evidence that supports their internal bias.
The good news is that recent research shows an actual increase (1.6% in the US) rather than a decline. You'd need to look at the more detailed research ($5000 to purchase the full report!) to know what that collector base consists of. I do think this forum is a distortion of the broader market. 90% of all collectors never spend even $1000 on a single coin. X% (I'm not sure the number) never buy anything but proof/mint sets and commemoratives. I will even go so far as to say that the MAJORITY of collectors don't even know what CAC is.
My crystal ball is forever broken. If coin collecting grows, that's fine with me. I just think it is prudent to consider the negative factors as well as the positive factors.
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..." When talking about the coin market in general (and where you're positioned in it), this sounds ripe for Confirmation Bias to me. One indication of the market is the PCGS 3000 Index. It's certainly not the ONLY indicator, but I'm not willing to pay $5k for the research! If you started buying coins at the height of the market (around 2013... ) you're likely welcoming higher prices. If you started buying in 2018-19... you're likely moaning about those higher prices. Welcome to Life!
I'm not a dealer, and I'm certainly not a speculator/investor. As a hobbyist, higher prices means one of a few things... either I lower my expectations for grade at the price I'm willing to pay, or I lower my expectations for actually winning the auctions, or I "pony up" and pay more (20-30%... more in some cases) which means I'm buying fewer coins in the long run and it will take me longer to complete a set (again, lowered expectations). But, this is just a hobby for me... I don't make my living by buying/selling/grading/flipping coins.
In the long run, I'm glad that there are more young(er) collectors being attracted to coin collecting. Regardless of whether they're collecting Mint Sets, State Quarters, or 19thC Type... I think the links to history and an appreciation of it are still something that drives numismatics in general and thus the market overall.
...just a thought...
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Well, yes a good time to sell, I agree, and you never lose money taking a profit...
Sounds good if you recently bought. Long term collectors might have a ways to go.
Graph for 1970 to Date
Maybe we shouldn't be complaining about new high prices?
And we know who's going to "win"!
Midgrade Barbers (and Barbers in general), with the exception of key dates, are not rare. It has been my experience that if you look diligently enough and are patient, you can find pretty much any coin that is not rare, nor on everyone's want list, at a reasonable price.
It may take awhile. It took me 4 years to find a nice MS 65 Barber Half, 8 years to find an AU 53 Heraldic Eagle Bust $ with original skin, and longer than that to find a problem free early date Capped Bust Half in MS 64. But I found them all at prices that I thought were not inflated.
The problem is that too many collectors want a particular coin NOW. Sure, you can find it, because it probably isn't rare. But if you're not patient, you'll pay more for it. It's your choice. Personally, I can wait.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Last night I bid on a coin that was probably in the condition census in the Legend auction. I put in a strong bid (would have been a record for the that date and grade). Missed out by one increment. Disappointed that I didn't get the coin but as always enjoyed the process of locating the coin, researching it, pricing it and watching the auction. I understand that our hobby is not static and the rules can change. Even missing out on a coin due to higher prices and more competition, I still feel its a great time to be a collector. That money is now set aside and I'm off to look for another great coin.
This discussion is about two different things - a type coin collection and a specific type coin set. It took 4 years to find one nice Barber. How long would it take to put together a date set or a even more challenging, date and mint mark set?
I haven't sold anything in a bit, but one coin I do keep an eye on (since I own one) is the 1908-D no motto $20 gold in MS-64. I needed a no motto for type and got that date (with a green bean) for what I thought was a song about a year and a half ago. Not a whole lot over melt at that time. Now the price is getting close to doubling, which I find interesting. Granted it's just one coin, but I've seen it for other coins in popular series as well.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Double Eagles are on fire. I have several Liberty's in later 1890's that have doubled in the last year. Many of those traded with a small premium to melt just a year or two ago.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
With nice original midgrade barbers...for many dates + MM's, it's not about the money....it's finding them!
You could go further. The majority (over 50%) of collectors don't buy slabbed coins.
Using the US Mint's numbers for collectors, the majority of collectors don't pay more than face value for coins.
And, you could go further still. The majority of them are likely mint product or bullion buyers.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
"Using the US Mint's numbers for collectors, the majority of collectors don't pay more than face value for coins."
"And, you could go further still. The majority of them are likely mint product or bullion buyers."
Can't argue with either of these. What happens on this forum is a (very) tiny slice of "the coin market".
By volume, yes. By dollars, no.
But i agree. A lot of people here, if they don't work in a coin shop, forget what the vast majority of collections look like.
[And stamp collections are worse! ]
A set of solidly nice coins will take many years to acquire, unless you write a blank check for everything that you like when you initially see it.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
You are telling me. I started a MS Barber date set in 2003 and just finished it. : ) It worked for me as I needed to pace myself in terms of having limited funds. I'll never be able to complete a mint mark set; but, I'm working on it anyway..
Been watching the Barrett- Jackson auto auction the past few days. It's incredible the huge prices most cars/ trucks across the board are realizing. So many six and seven million dollar vehicles in this no reserve auction. 70's trucks and SUV's and resto mods white hot as well.
Unreal
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It's interesting that no one has invoked tulips.
I agree the market overall seems very strong.
Two areas specifically I’ve noticed that are WAY up are classic commems and MS Franklin’s in rattlers. Both areas seem to have about doubled in the last year-ish.
It has me strongly considering selling certain things…
Can you give us commemorative examples?