A fake coin dilemma: notify seller/eBay and close the auction or let it continue?
Barberian
Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭✭✭
There's an interesting fake half (not marked as copy) on eBay that I wouldn't mind acquiring (lots of doubling, die breaks, and die lines) but there are 16 bidders for it already with almost four days until the auction closes. Do I:
1) tell the seller that the coin is fake, thereby closing the auction, and then offer to purchase it for $30-50? That way, an unsuspecting winning bidder won't get burned with a fake coin, and then I can purchase the fake for a relatively low cost. (= playing by the rules but for selfish reasons this time)
2) Not say anything to the seller and just continue bidding with hopes of winning the coin? Since there are so many bidders already and the coin is already at $31, I can see someone who doesn't know it's fake getting burned with this coin if the bidding goes higher. On the other hand, several bidders probably recognize it as a fake and are bidding to acquire it.
Comments
If, as many of us do, you believe that counterfeits should be reported, the fact that you’re personally interested in it shouldn’t dictate a change from your normal way of addressing the issue.
That aside, if I were a seller of a counterfeit and was unaware of it, I doubt I’d believe someone who told me it was, but still wanted to buy it.
Do the honorable thing - report it and let the seller know you’re doing such.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don’t think it will go over well if you wait till after the auction is cancelled to say you want to buy it.
That's what I just did, i.e., I notified the seller the coin was a fake.
How does one acquire fake coins legally, or are they all considered illegal to own? Here's the coin.
Where is option #3 ?
Would that be closing down the auction and forgetting about acquiring the coin? That's very likely what's going to happen here.
@Barberian "I notified the seller the coin was a fake."
If the seller doesn't remove the listing within the next 24 hours you should post a link here to have it removed.
Ask the seller to stamp COPY on it.
When I see an auction for a counterfeit item from a established seller I contact the seller and explain why I believe it to be a fake. I give the seller an opportunity for discussion and see if he will end the auction himself. I do not argue, and if he disagrees and leaves it up I report it.
I save images and file it away for the next like one; have an extensive record of bad coins for reference.
It is possible to offer the seller what is considered "reasonable" for the item with an explanation of purpose; the law talks of "intent to deceive" but can be grey in its interpretation and should always be a consideration...
What makes you think that others didn't ID it as a contemporary counterfeit and KNOWINGLY make bids?
Vast difference between those and modern Chinese stuff.
I've done that several times on fleaBay. I've even bought from a seller who properly identifies these. I get he's skirting the rules on the 'bay, but we both had our eyes wide open (in fact, the seller - knowing I was interested in contemporary counterfeits - pointed me at another item).
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
i didn't see anyone state this, so i will.
that "coin" imo, is not subject the HPA or federal law since it appears to have been made prior to what is it 72 or 73. so if you ever see something like this, it is best to let it run. imo federal law supercedes ebay's preferences since people that buy these usually know what they are and are pleased to acquire them. i've owned various and enjoyed them all and sold to knowing happy buyers.
that is a really nice example the wear notwithstanding.
I suspect at least a few did based upon the considerable bidding activity so early in an auction.
Regardless of eBay’s policies, even if the coin wouldn’t be subject to the HPA and even if some bidders would know the coin was a contemporary copy, shouldn’t it still be identified as such or not sold?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Bet it sells for more than a real one!
hmm. based on how you asked, i will ask: why would it need to be? and do you mean identified in the ebay listing title/description?
"Contemporary counterfeit" in the listing would be great!
unless someone is trying not to pay out the wazoo for it.
(so pretty much good for the seller (unless listing it as counterfeit gets it removed) and bad for the buyer having to pay more if it doesn't get removed or perhaps good for someone willing to pay more because they wouldn't have found it otherwise and there are people that diligently seek these out, including keywords in titles)
Because it’s a copy and understandably, many potential bidders won’t know that. Yes, identified as such in the listing. I’m not attributing any bad intent to the seller.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
i agree most won't. i'm not the authority to dictate whether it should be/could be listed as such or at all but my strong preference is that they are listed because they aren't modern junk, they are historic junk and highly sought after and the sooner this ends up in the hands of someone to be a caretaker of it, the sooner it isn't lost or damaged or destroyed.
i have listed mine with the word contemporary and/or the precise designation for the type so those searching them out will have better odds of finding it but without alerting the staff or public by using the actual word counterfeit and usually the price is as such that joe q citizen wouldn't even consider the item being multiples of its authentic counterpart(s).
BUT, in the unlikely event joe q does win it and submit it unbeknownst to them and when it comes back bodybagged and probably quite upset, it would save some major inconvenience for them and potentially the seller even though it wasn't illegal to sell/buy/mail the item. i have to believe though, that situation or one similar has to be VERY unlikely if a premium has been paid. not for ones listed as bin as a low price, not much to be done there as the seller probably doesn't even know and may be the case here. idk
ok. i'm off for now but will check back here in a bit for any responses i've made to various threads.
My understanding is that under the original HPA, items made before the act (72 or 73) don't need to be stamped COPY, however this was / is a large loop hole since people could just say date of manufacture is unknown.
Under the updated HPA, I read some text along the lines of saying that items sold need to have COPY, so even if it was manufactured before 72, if ti was sold after the amended act, it needed to have COPY.
Anyone have more info on this?
Well, if the coin is for sale, it hasn't yet been sold... So does the seller have to stamp it COPY before shipping it to the buyer, or does the buyer have to stamp it? 🙂
My understanding is that it's the seller's obligation and responsibility.
contemporary counterfeit would be a great category on eBay
there was a major update/revamp to the various laws governing copies/counterfeits a few/several years ago. while there has been a lot of commentary surrounding those updates, even on this forum as i recall several posts/threads, i do not recall specifically this fine and important point(s) and i'll have to look into it again unless someone posts it before i get to it. i just recall it was mostly to cover the import/export/striking of when/where/how etc with special emphasis on importing.
i certainly don't desire to cause someone grief by stating they DO NOT need to be stamped even if struck prior to the 70s if in fact that was added or existed previously outside my knowledge but the good thing is that a legal argument because someone on the internet said it was so does not a legal argument make, or at least effective one. the laws are published online in their entirety and that information is free an open to everyone at any time. i'm confident the links are in our archives for at least most of that language.
to the comment someone need just state it is minted before the 70s. yes they can state this but i think that at least 90% of the counterfeits this could be stated about could also easily be proven counterfeit by consensus of those with decades of experience and not many, if any, of those people would have skin in the game to try and push the junk through because thankfully the junk counterfeits only undermine the bigger financial game of authentic coinage.
Could you expand a bit about these early fake coins? What is so special about them? When were they made?
Fake ASE and 21st century Morgans and Peace dollars could be sold there?
A lot of contemporary counterfeits are worth a lot more than their genuine counterparts. Henning nickels come to mind.
Link to auction
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133999212225?hash=item1f32f9b6c1:g:ZqQAAOSwJTth5~70
mbarrcoins is usually pretty good, but I think he missed this one. The date appears to be an 1860/1 or 1860/4. Very cool !
I hope he hasn't mbarrassed himself.
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to make a very long story short, i think the general consensus is the overall look, composition, history (better or worse) and the fact the time period they were in has come and gone. people almost always seem to fancy a time gone by, especially for collectables.
they are akin to being folksy, americana etc. they are crude a lot of the time, even cartoonishly cute at times, but in a way that is kinda neat. i'm willing to bet some of the hands that made store cards/tokens etc that are posted are probably the same skilled and even political hands that played a part in the creation of some of these counterfeits. i'm not saying they're criminal masterminds or the like though.
the time period spans many decades at the least but most i'd say are from 1850-1930s plus or minus. a couple times i've heard as much as 60% of the coins/currency circulating a bit pre/during/post civil war was counterfeit. i'm sure that figure goes up and down +/- 50 years from that time period.
a bit factor i'd say is that the don't really seem to have been made to be collected, same as most usa business coinage but it is highly sought-after all the same and when you start peeling the onion on the whole thing, (numismatics), there really isn't much it isn't connected to. the counterfeits touch on a beautiful but dark part of humanity although i'm sure a lot of it was done to survive. don't know why it adds such value to art, coins, furniture, and a myrid of other historic collectables but it does. i'm mostly glad it is accepted and the items aren't outright destroyed. the more one tries to cover up the dirt, usually the dirtier one is.
there is 4 paragraphs but to do this subject justice, it needs 10-20x that easily. the forum contains that much in the archives to be sure.
perhaps someone will bump one of the many lovely period (contemporary) counterfeits.
messydesk came up with a good replacement word for contemporary long ago since i made such a fuss for such a long time about it being misused when stating contemporary counterfeit with it meaning modern and not to a specific time other than the present but i don't recall what it was unfortunately.
agreed. i've personally paid 10x the value of their authentic counterparts and seen others do this. i've sold em for more than that and have seen 40x,50x for pristine condition super rare types/dates. had i more cash avail, i would have like to have had one morgan i saw for 50x melt at the time. what a rare beast and high grade.
i think it was dkhan that i almost did a trade with for a SUPER rare one i found that was d/s (cbh) essentially a discovery specimen in rough shape and he offered i think it was about 10 of his duplicates and i foolishly didn't do the transactoin for one reason or another although i've regretted it since as it would have gone into the hands of someone as a good caretaker of these and i woulda had a bunch of ones i've never owned. tough not being perfect.
the specimen that appears to still be active ALMOST made me think it was a weak o/s or d/s because all the repunching going on. several letters on the reverse and the date just that i can see. boggles the mind to think of why someone would do that with a counterfeit.
What does "o/s" and "d/s" mean?
Over struck and Double struck
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
mbarrcoins is a very reputable dealer but handles a lot of volume; I have a friend there and report bad listings to him as a heads up when I see them.
A nice contemporary counterfeit with value in it's own right. Should be identified as such in an auction, of course.
Another thing that occurred to me is that lots of "know it all" types try to tell sellers what to do. I am NOT suggesting the OP is in that category, but generally speaking, can we expect all sellers to obey all detractors?
What happens when a less experienced person demands that a coin be stamped COPY and the coin is real? I recall seeing a huge clip on an Ike dollar and someone used a set of punches to stamp "NOT AN ERROR" across the coin. It was subsequently slabbed by PCGS as an authentic, but damaged, error.
Why does anyone knowingly want to own counterfeit or fake?
Known as an1860/4 contemporary counterfeit; collectible in its own right as such.
I searched for the coin and it's gone now.
"I searched for the coin and it's gone now."
Ended this morning for $51.11
Contemporary counterfeits are a different animal. They provide a look at what was circulating at the time and with research, can help give a look at the history of that era. Many, like the Machin Mills pieces, Canadian blacksmith tokens, 18th century English coppers, and Spanish silver reals have been studied and reference books published.
I just saw that. It was sold 2+ days before the auction was to close. I'll bet someone actually did what I contemplated, i.e., notified the seller it was a fake and then offered to buy it. Perhaps @Burfie23 can find out what happened here. Perhaps I tipped this buyer off.
Speaking of Machin's Mills contemporary counterfeits, I found one with a metal detector at Washington College, Chestertown, MD near the "Washington elm". This magnificent American elm has grown from a cutting from the elm tree George Washington stood under while accepting command of the Continental Army on July 3, 1775 in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Someone must have reported it as the listing went "poof"...
IMO
All coins that are a copy or counterfeit, should be identified as such in the listing.
Listings that do not state copy or counterfeit, should be revised to incorporate the same
when the seller is informed.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
...and anybody who actually does this will likely find that their listing is promptly pulled from eBay, as eBay has a blanket "no counterfeits of any kind" policy.
It should be pointed out that buying and selling contemporary counterfeits isn't actually illegal in America, it's just against eBay policy. So the owners of Henning nickels etc have to use non-eBay-based means of selling.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
I have recently been getting more interested in contemporary counterfeits, most of the ones I have are not at all deceptive and would not fool even an unseasoned collector. If I spotted one like the OP did and saw that much bidder activity, I would assume that they were pursuing it as a counterfeit, and that someone in the market for a genuine Seated half would know enough to avoid it.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Based on all of the bids I see on various blatant counterfeits, I think you might be surprised by how easily many unseasoned collectors can be fooled.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I knowingly purchased a counterfeit Morgan from an antique shop here..... I told the seller it was fake, showed them it was fake and then purchased it for a reduced price to get it off the market. Still have it, but I did list it on the counterfeit site at the time.... Cheers, RickO
I could just as easily say that you might be surprised how many people collect contemporary counterfeits.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I very well might. But that's a separate matter from how many unseasoned collectors are fooled by "not at all deceptive" counterfeits.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.