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Does this Barber half look like it has been purposely scratched?

braddickbraddick Posts: 23,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

I'm looking a what appears to be a scratch outlining most of the portrait along with various other scratches. Perhaps a needle of some type? Also, the reverse looks like it has scratches (graffiti) too.
Your thoughts?


peacockcoins

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    Farmer1961Farmer1961 Posts: 167 ✭✭✭

    Very obyious marks on the neck and face too. Looks like a W

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    LukeMarshallLukeMarshall Posts: 1,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks that way to me

    It's all about what the people want...

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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's a prime example of why some Barbers in the same grade sell for double what others do. I also think that's why price guides are so low on many of them as only crap like this seems to show up at auction with a few exceptions.

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    bigjpstbigjpst Posts: 3,033 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Definitely looks like damage. I’ve seen several seated halves with similar marks over the last couple years straight graded by both major TPGs.

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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,782 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like the original look of the coin... However... there seems to be obvious tooling along the outer portrait- take a reasonable look at the point where hair meets the forehead and follow that down through the nose and it picks up around the chin and there is an issue above the ribbon extending upward. Also and for the sake of completeness, there are issues directly on the portrait as others have noted.

    Finally, there are issues on the reverse. Looking down below the left wing and between HALF and the branch-

    Not understanding exactly what happened here in terms of a straight grade... clearly that result would be unexpected.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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    pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,593 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not sure that coin should have received a pass. But those marks are fairly light, comparatively (I think), and while they certainly appear as graffiti at first sniff ... maybe, maybe not. Obviously she saw some things before becoming someone's collectible.


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
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    ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Outlined bust & graffiti = No grade / Details

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    RampageRampage Posts: 9,418 ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, that is not a good looking coin. I had a similar issue with a Washington quarter a while back. It was graded MS66, but yet, the coin had counting machine damage on the reverse. Difficult to tell due to original end roll toning, but horribly scratch nonetheless. I broke it out of the holder and stuck it in an album.

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,940 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bad one! PCGS needs to get that one back and make it disappear. That's the kind of coin that hurts a TPG's reputation.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Someone tried to decapitate her as well. Ugly

    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
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    DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At least it didn't get a CAC for being original.

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    privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beautiful Crack out for a poor guys album.

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc

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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DisneyFan said:
    At least it didn't get a CAC for being original.

    I hope some one does send it to CAC. CAC might have a good laugh.

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    Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,672 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm seeing the mark of Zorro on her neck. Ouch! Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall

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    skier07skier07 Posts: 3,689 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS was in a generous mood.

    Too bad, it’s a very nice coin minus the damage.

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    CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,603 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Send to Laura for dreck certification.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick Is this your coin?

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    relicsncoinsrelicsncoins Posts: 7,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My 1807 half should definitely straight grade if that did. It's currently in an old ANACS holder EF40 details, scratched.

    Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
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    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yup. Deliberately scratched IMO, particularly the scratches along Liberty's profile and chin.

    I purchased a beautifully toned, original 1857-S half in P35 for $535 a few years back that on closer inspection had toned over pin scratched graffiti similar to a tic-tac-toe grid above the eagle. As nice as the coin was, I always looked for the graffiti on the reverse, so I returned it to the seller. A few months later, I saw the coin again in an SLH dealer's inventory for $900, and sure enough, I could see the tic-tac-toe graffiti in the seller's photos. The coin sold quickly, too. I kicked myself softly for not keeping it for resale because scarce date SLHs were skyrocketing in price back then.

    I still look for that otherwise gorgeous coin and wonder if it has a CAC sticker on it now.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
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    HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That’s a mysterious coin. Some of the “scratches” appear raised, as if they were on the die.

    Higashiyama
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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AUandAG said:
    Someone tried to decapitate her as well. Ugly

    bob :)

    I’d market it as the Henry VIII variety.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don’t fully understand why it matters to grading companies or anyone else, whether such marks are the result of intentional actions or unintentional mishandling/damage through circulation. Why not issue either a details or straight grade, based upon the extent of the damage, rather than speculate about (possible) intent.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    coastaljerseyguycoastaljerseyguy Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow, looks similar to a 78 CC that I bot raw UNC on EBAY about 20 years ago - was a 62-63. Was delivered but I was traveling at the time. My 8 year old son opened the mail and thought it looked so nice he tried to outline on a piece of paper. When the ink stopped, he scribbled to get the ink flowing again, but luckily not on Liberty. Realized what he had done and stopped, reverse was pristine. Coin still had some blue ink as he pressed so hard on the paper. Anyway sold and took about a $100 loss. Luckily 78cc's 20 years ago were < $200. This coin is much worse as I was able to get the blue ink out. Should never have gotten a clean grade, doesn't even look like it was net graded that much.

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    CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    I don’t fully understand why it matters to grading companies or anyone else, whether such marks are the result of intentional actions or unintentional mishandling/damage through circulation. Why not issue either a details or straight grade, based upon the extent of the damage, rather than speculate about (possible) intent.

    I agree but regardless I suspect most would agree that specific coin doesn’t warrant a straight grade. wouldn’t you?

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Crypto said:

    @MFeld said:
    I don’t fully understand why it matters to grading companies or anyone else, whether such marks are the result of intentional actions or unintentional mishandling/damage through circulation. Why not issue either a details or straight grade, based upon the extent of the damage, rather than speculate about (possible) intent.

    I agree but regardless I suspect most would agree that specific coin doesn’t warrant a straight grade. wouldn’t you?

    Based upon how the coin appears in the images, I would agree.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    I don’t fully understand why it matters to grading companies or anyone else, whether such marks are the result of intentional actions or unintentional mishandling/damage through circulation. Why not issue either a details or straight grade, based upon the extent of the damage, rather than speculate about (possible) intent.

    For me, there's something troublesome about a coin that has graffiti on it unless it's nicely engraved. That sometime long ago, some flunkie deliberately marked up the coin you're purchasing.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    @braddick Is this your coin?

    Not my coin. I was considering it (based strictly on the slab photo) for a crack-out to a DANSCO typeset.

    peacockcoins

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,426 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not so sure that CAC would reject that coin for a sticker. A few days ago there was a thread concerning a PCGS straight graded coin with a serious staple scratch on the reverse that got a CAC sticker.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    goldengolden Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just Wow!

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    ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,328 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That should be in a details holder

    Collector, occasional seller

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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,733 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2022 4:05PM

    Well, the scratches do look old, which mitigates the situation a bit..... but I don't like it. At auction, it would hopefully sell at a significant discount. Coins like this potentially hurt new collectors and others who rely too much on the holder to identify a nice coin.

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Details grade for sure. Mind boggling how that would straight grade.

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    Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Tooled.

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm not so sure that CAC would reject that coin for a sticker. A few days ago there was a thread concerning a PCGS straight graded coin with a serious staple scratch on the reverse that got a CAC sticker.

    If this stickers, it is time to stop taking CAC seriously.

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    robkoolrobkool Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ouch !!! Those scratches look bad for a straight graded coin. It reminds me of a thread a few weeks ago, about the 1893 S Morgan someone had for sale that had a WD etched into the cheek area on another straight low graded coin.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would say the 'leaf like' mark below the left (as viewed) wing on the reverse is graffiti ... A lot of deep scratches on the obverse image.... I am surprised it is not a 'details' coin. Cheers, RickO

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    anablepanablep Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like someone scratched an outline all the way around the entire Liberty device in addition to the scratches on the cheek, neck and around the eagle.

    Always looking for attractive rim toned Morgan and Peace dollars in PCGS or (older) ANA/ANACS holders!

    "Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."


    ~Wayne
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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,926 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @skier07 said:
    PCGS was in a generous mood.

    Too bad, it’s a very nice coin minus the damage.

    I doubt that's the case. Likely just a mistake.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,926 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm not so sure that CAC would reject that coin for a sticker. A few days ago there was a thread concerning a PCGS straight graded coin with a serious staple scratch on the reverse that got a CAC sticker.

    If this stickers, it is time to stop taking CAC seriously.

    So you are no longer taking PCGS seriously? After all, it slabbed but didn't CAC. This might bolster the argument FOR CAC.

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    TPG's should detail grade coins that should be detail graded. Not straight grade what they think is market acceptable. The market can decide whats acceptable or not. They do the same thing with old coins that have been cleaned.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,426 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm not so sure that CAC would reject that coin for a sticker. A few days ago there was a thread concerning a PCGS straight graded coin with a serious staple scratch on the reverse that got a CAC sticker.

    If this stickers, it is time to stop taking CAC seriously.

    So you are no longer taking PCGS seriously? After all, it slabbed but didn't CAC. This might bolster the argument FOR CAC.

    How do you know that it's been to the sticker factory?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,782 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall

    I am not convinced we know enough about the 1911-D Saint from the image provided to definitively conclude that was a stable scratch. PCGS and CAC may have a different opinion and perhaps they see it as a strike through. The obverse on that Saint was about as good as they come.

    Here we have a different set of facts... The straight grade simply does not pass the straight face test.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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    relicsncoinsrelicsncoins Posts: 7,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm not so sure that CAC would reject that coin for a sticker. A few days ago there was a thread concerning a PCGS straight graded coin with a serious staple scratch on the reverse that got a CAC sticker.

    If this stickers, it is time to stop taking CAC seriously.

    So you are no longer taking PCGS seriously? After all, it slabbed but didn't CAC. This might bolster the argument FOR CAC.

    How do you know that it's been to the sticker factory?

    Does the sticker factory have a public database of cert numbers that were rejected for stickers or would they rather each new owner send it in for revenue purposes?

    Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,926 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm not so sure that CAC would reject that coin for a sticker. A few days ago there was a thread concerning a PCGS straight graded coin with a serious staple scratch on the reverse that got a CAC sticker.

    If this stickers, it is time to stop taking CAC seriously.

    So you are no longer taking PCGS seriously? After all, it slabbed but didn't CAC. This might bolster the argument FOR CAC.

    How do you know that it's been to the sticker factory?

    I don't. Doesn't matter. Clearly you can't trust just one set of eyes.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,926 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @relicsncoins said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm not so sure that CAC would reject that coin for a sticker. A few days ago there was a thread concerning a PCGS straight graded coin with a serious staple scratch on the reverse that got a CAC sticker.

    If this stickers, it is time to stop taking CAC seriously.

    So you are no longer taking PCGS seriously? After all, it slabbed but didn't CAC. This might bolster the argument FOR CAC.

    How do you know that it's been to the sticker factory?

    Does the sticker factory have a public database of cert numbers that were rejected for stickers or would they rather each new owner send it in for revenue purposes?

    Neither.

    They don't charge collectors for coins that don't sticker.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,926 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Barberian said:

    @MFeld said:
    I don’t fully understand why it matters to grading companies or anyone else, whether such marks are the result of intentional actions or unintentional mishandling/damage through circulation. Why not issue either a details or straight grade, based upon the extent of the damage, rather than speculate about (possible) intent.

    For me, there's something troublesome about a coin that has graffiti on it unless it's nicely engraved. That sometime long ago, some flunkie deliberately marked up the coin you're purchasing.

    I do it all the time. I've used coins as emergency screwdrivers or spacers. I keep coins in my car in a container with a nail file that scratches them. I've even experimented on pocket change. That coin could have been marked up while circulating by someone board while waiting at the blacksmith.

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    relicsncoinsrelicsncoins Posts: 7,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @relicsncoins said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm not so sure that CAC would reject that coin for a sticker. A few days ago there was a thread concerning a PCGS straight graded coin with a serious staple scratch on the reverse that got a CAC sticker.

    If this stickers, it is time to stop taking CAC seriously.

    So you are no longer taking PCGS seriously? After all, it slabbed but didn't CAC. This might bolster the argument FOR CAC.

    How do you know that it's been to the sticker factory?

    Does the sticker factory have a public database of cert numbers that were rejected for stickers or would they rather each new owner send it in for revenue purposes?

    Neither.

    They don't charge collectors for coins that don't sticker.

    Good to know. Thanks. Never sent a coin in and every PCGS coin I have, I submitted myself, so I know they have never been to the sticker factory.

    Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2022 11:45AM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm not so sure that CAC would reject that coin for a sticker. A few days ago there was a thread concerning a PCGS straight graded coin with a serious staple scratch on the reverse that got a CAC sticker.

    If this stickers, it is time to stop taking CAC seriously.

    So you are no longer taking PCGS seriously? After all, it slabbed but didn't CAC. This might bolster the argument FOR CAC.

    Mistakes like this are unacceptable from any professional grader. When you form a new service claiming the other guys aren't doing a good job, then you better not miss mistakes like this or you are no better and are completely unnecessary. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. If you claim to grade the graders, you should expect to be held to a higher standard or else what is the point?

    I'll also go out on a limb - let's say this were market acceptable (something which I vehemently disagree with). It would be a low end for the grade coin and the service could in that scenario be justified in assigning a grade to it. CAC is not merely grading a coin but is stating that it is solid or high end for the grade. Could you look someone in the eye with a straight face and say this is solid or high end for the grade?

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