Options
Roman Kings/Emperors Coins
Histman
Posts: 213 ✭✭✭
Howdy folks! I do not collect ancient coins, but as someone with a Master's in History, a lover of Roman history, and a coin collector, I got to thinking... I see people talking about their collection of the Five Good Emperors or those from the Caesar line. My question is: If one wanted to, could a collector find coins for all of the historical Roman leaders going back to Romulus?
I was thinking the same thing for all of the Kings of Great Britain going back to Alfred the Great.
In other words: are these coins even available? Just curious.
0
Comments
No. Back when Romulus was king, coins weren't invented yet. None of the old kings of Rome issued coins while they were alive. The earliest Roman "coins" are large cast bronze ingots which date from circa 289 BC, which is well into the Republic period.
That doesn't mean the kings aren't represented on the coinage. At least some of them are depicted on coins issued by certain Roman magistrates who claimed to be descendants of the kings. It was the fashion back then to brag about your ancestors (rather than yourself).
You can do it for English coins, because coins have been in England for longer than England has existed.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
It is interesting to note that one of the earliest mentions of anything resembling "coin collecting" in the ancient records is in Suetonius, where emperor Augustus is reported to have habitually given "gifts of coins of every device, including old pieces of the kings and foreign money" on the Saturnalia festival. While giving actual "coins of the old kings" would have been impossible, it was probably these Republican pieces with ancestral depictions of the kings that Augustus' guests received.
Example: Lucius Marcius Philippus was the magistrate in charge of the Mint in 56 BC. He used this position to promote his two most illustrious ancestors on the coinage: Ancus Marcius, the 4th King of Rome and Quintus Marcius Rex, the builder of the Marcian aqueduct. Examples of these coins on Wildwinds.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
Technically, you can get back to Julius Caesar (the first to feature on coins), although Augustus was the first emperor anyway. There are lots of emperors that are all but unobtainable, but the majority of those are usurpers and obscure Caesars who ruled a bit of the empire at the same time as one or more others. The main problem is how many emperors there were - especially if you continue into the Byzantine emperors.
English Kings back to William I is definitely possible, although there are a few problems. Edward VIII never issued any coins, although there are a few 'trial' coins that sell for huge money. (But if you're going to count those, you might as well get a colonial issue of his e.g. from East Africa, which don't have his portrait but cost very little). Edward V did issue coins, probably, although quite which is the subject of debate, and they are very expensive. Richard III is also not cheap, while the Commonwealth is a bit awkward.
Before William I, you can get to Edgar, the first king of a united England, as long as you can afford several thousand pounds each for Harold II and Harthacnut.
Before Edgar, you have a problem with definition. England was split at various times into Wessex, Mercia, Northumberland, the Danelaw etc. There are no English coins for Eric Bloodaxe, for example, although he had some in Norway. Alfred was king of Wessex, and you can trace back to him from Edgar through Eadwig, Eadred, Eadmund, Æthelstan and Edward the Elder, with each one setting you back a good £500 per coin without a portrait, with Alfred costing a couple of thousand.
So, anything purporting to have the image of Romulus (which I've seen) is a later production coin (potentially from any time period) that may be honoring him, or it could potentially be a fake? Interesting...thanks for the information.
Very interesting. I took a course on English Monarchs and did a little digging of my own to learn about Alfred, Eadwig, etc., and of course the divided kingdoms. I love American History (there is plenty of it) but it isn't anything like the rest of the world. Thank you for the information.
Romulus died the century before coins were invented (if he actually existed) and 400 years before the Romans used coins. Anything depicting Romulus has to be either in honour of him (which the Romans did a fair bit with their rulers) or more modern. No-one would have known what he looked like. I have coins showing a 'wolf and twins' (Romulus and Remus), which were very popular in the AD300s, but were obviously not from the lifetime of Romulus.
Of course, there's always Romulus, son of Maxentius, who had posthumous coins issued in AD309-312, but I don't think you mean that one. Interestingly, the last Western Roman emperor was called Romulus (Augustulus) and you can get coins of him.
Yes. I don't think all seven of the semi-mythical Old Kings made it onto the coinage, but several of them did. Romulus, being the first, did feature quite a bit, as the child in the Romulus-and-Remus-with-wolf motif. Romulus himself gets the full portrait treatment on a rather rare denarius issued during the time of Trajan; this in turn was a "restoration piece" - a restrike, if you will - of an earlier denarius from the Republican period.
As far as I can tell, only kings numbered 1 (Romulus), 2 (Numa Pompilius) and 4 (Ancus Marcius) were commemorated on the coins. The other four missed out, even when one of their descendants/relatives was a moneyer. It's perhaps not surprising that number 7 was omitted, being the "bad guy" tyrant who caused the uprising and resultant abolition of the monarchy.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
Regarding British Kings, @BillJones made a series of threads with coins from his collection and info for each.
Here are the first several:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/999791/the-british-king-bullet-book-part-1-aethelred-ii-978-1016
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/999842/british-king-bullet-book-cnut-1016-1035
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/999878/british-king-bullet-book-edward-the-confessor-1042-1066
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/999918/british-kings-bullet-book-harold-ii-1066
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1000004/british-king-bullet-book-william-the-conqueror-1066-1087
and you can find more in the list of his threads:
https://forums.collectors.com/profile/discussions/BillJones
You might also find the The Tyrant Collection of interest.
It includes coins of Kings in Rome, Britain and other places:
https://thetyrantcollection.com/
For English kings, I would likely include some pre-Edgar rulers due to their importance - particularly Alfred (due to his importance in laying the foundations of late Anglo-Saxon England), and Aethelstan. I have to disagree with Spink regarding Edgar as the first King of England - I would argue this was Aethelstan who directly ruled all England, dominated parts of Wales and southern Scotland for much of his reign, and even was referred to reverentially in the Irish Annals of Ulster. Eadred was also briefly a ruler of all of England before his early death. Perhaps start with Alfred if budget allows?
If budget allows, you can go 100 years or more further back that Alfred. To complete the full run from Offa to Elizabeth II (fudging the Commonwealth and Edward VIII):
If you stick with Wessex:
You're then back to AD802. Before that it's Beorhtric, and although he had coins, it's so few I don't know any would ever be available. They would cost a deposit for a house. There's no identifiable king on coins before that in Wessex.
I have no Wessex coins, but Eadmund was Alfred's grandson:
Eadmund Penny, 939-946
Southern mint. Silver, 1.2g. +EΛDMVИD REX. EADR / ED MO (Eadred moneyer) (S 1105).
Or, you could go through Mercia:
That gets you to AD757.
Burgred Penny, 868-874
London. Silver, 1.4g. BURGREDREX+. +BEAGZTA between [N]MON / ETA (Beagstan moneyer) (S 938).
Offa introduced the penny to England, using Charlemagne's coinage as a model.
Offa Cut Halfpenny, 780-792
London. Silver, 0.4g. OFFA. AETHEL (Aethelweald moneyer) (S 904).
You could try Northumbria. It's not straightforward late on (and I don't know if it's unbroken to Aethelstan) due to the Viking invasion, but once you get to Osberht (848-867) you can get back to Eadberht (737-758). There's even Aldfrith (685-704) but there's a gap in coinage between him and Eadberht.
Aethelred II Styca, 2nd Reign, 843-850
York. Copper, 0.7g. +EDILRED REX. +EARDVVLF (Eardwulf moneyer) (S 868).
Because most Northumbrian coins are copper stycas, many of them would cost £200-300.
Eadberht Sceatta, 737-758
York. Silver, 1g. EOTBEREhTVF (S 847).
There's also East Anglia and Kent, but their coinage is sporadic on account of them being conquered a fair bit. It's hard work determining when they were independent, let alone who was king. Quite a lot of Kent's coinage was issued by archbishops instead.
Before that, some Saxon coins have names on them, but I think they're either archbishops or moneyers, like Vanimundus here:
Vanimundus Transitional Thrymsa/Scillinga, Type 55, Variety VaB, 675-760
London or Essex. Pale Gold or Electrum, 0.6g (S 772). Ex Tony Abramson. Found Debenham (Suffolk), 2008 [EMC 2009.0024].
I like Henry VIII…..such a wild guy. His coins are expensive, for a decent coin say AU55, $1500 and up in a hurry. I chased a Henry VI coin, finest I had ever come across, MS63. I bailed on bidding at $2200, it went with buyers premium for $3,000, but then it was awesome.
Henry VIII is very popular and his coins have a lot of personality. But you can get a decent Henry VIII in (good strike and attractive) for about £500. It depends which bust but most in silver aren’t $1500. AU55 or anything graded is a bit pointless on a hammered coin - these are coins with character, like the monarchs. Why pay Heritage prices?
I have a few of Henry VI and none cost anywhere near $3000. His Calais mint coins can be near perfect for $500, depending on the denomination. Even at Heritage. Although Spink, DNW or CNG are better places to go for British coins. For example, you won’t get a much better coin than this - estimate £350 https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5368&lot=5
If you’re paying $3000 it’d have to
be gold.
Don't want to derail the thread with talk of English coins, considering the original post was about Roman emperors, but I am a big fan of English coins. I am working on a set of every English monarch that produced coins. It's technically not possible to complete, even with unlimited funds, which of course I don't have. Some kings did not produce any coins, such as Edmund II "Ironsides", at least none with his name on it. Some of the Anglo-Saxon petty kings did produce coins but they are so rare, they only exist in museums, such as Beorhtric of Wessex. I have about 100 different monarchs of the British Isles (including Scotland) going back to Saxon times. I reckon there are about 40 British Isles monarchs that I do not have, and some which I am sure I will never get. But the hunt remains fun. If you want to add Celtic and/or Romano-British, you could add even more.
@JohnConduitt you mentioned Eric Bloodaxe did not produce coins in York. This is actually not true. Eric did make coins, two distinct types, during his reigns in Northumbria. One with a sword, and the other without. They are extremely rare and very expensive, but they are out there. CNG sold a sword type a few years ago, it made 6 figures(!). Many of the Viking chieftains in York produced coins, and they are mostly all very rare.
Regarding the Roman emperors up to the fall of the Western Empire, there are about 200 emperors, caesars, usurpers, and related family members who appear on coins. Actually, most are obtainable, a couple are only known from one or two examples in museums. Some are very expensive, like the last Western Emperors who produced a very tiny coinage, for example Glycerius. But most are available and many are relatively cheap, and a relatively comprehensive set can be put together by most collectors with the patience (and space!) to do so. There are another ~120+ Byzantine emperors and related family members on coins, so a complete "Roman" series would be over 300 coins. It's a massive undertaking and not many collectors actually are seriously working on it.
The OP asked about Roman Emperors and British kings, so it's all good.
Thank you. I will add Eric Bloodaxe to my list...
That's impressive! It's surprising how many there are before William I, because of the number of kingdoms.
I reckon there are about 45 English rulers back to William I, 70 Saxon/Viking kings with identifiable coins (including subordinate kings but excluding archbishops or moneyers), 14 Roman emperors who struck coins in England, and around 60 Celtic monarchs named on coins. So 180+ for England. I have no idea about Scotland or Ireland, although they wouldn't have anything before the medieval period (I think the Irish had Viking coins).
90%+ are reasonably obtainable (well, under £10k, so you can at least dream), and the ones that aren't are almost all Vikings or early Saxons. Probably 2-3% are not obtainable at all. I have 80%+ back to William I, 17% of the Saxons/Vikings, 100% of the Roman emperors and 20% of the Celts, which I think shows the relative scarcity and cost (although this is harsh on the Celts, as I haven't tried too hard with them).
For the Romans, I also collect coins found in England. I'm sticking to emperors between the conquest (Claudius) and their departure (Theodosius II). This brings the Roman total to about 120 (including Caesars and Usurpers, excluding family). Even with this tricky limitation (they must be found in England) I have more than half. If you stick to Augusti (not Caesars) and usurpers who actually ruled over Britain (not some brief uprising in Syria), you only have about 80. Almost all of those are obtainable, since the definition excludes emperors like Saturninus, Domitian II and Silbannacus.
>
True, all of that - I just didn't want to confuse things with too much elaboration. I've only had two of the pre-Alfred coins myself - one of the 'memorial' St. Edmund pennies issues by the Vikings of East Anglia around 900, and one of the Northumbrian Stycas of Aethelred II of Northumbria. The latter cost well under £100 (about $50 to $75 from a US dealer but this was in the 2000s). My knowledge of the history of this period is greater than my knowledge of its numismatics but I wouldn't think Northumbria would be continuous from Aldfrith due to the tendency of various noble factions and usurpers to kill the king regularly in the late 8th century. An interesting aside - if collecting Scottish coins in depth, one could also add the Northumbrian sceattas and stycas to a collection.
Send me some links where I can buy these Henry VIII coins for £500. I sure haven’t found any and I have looked.
This is certainly true, although Northumbria was incredibly prolific in its coinage at that time - which is why you can still get Aethelred II stycas for under £100 (although not in top shape). It's generally easier to get one of each than Wessex or Mercia:
Osberht (848-867) - £250
Hoaud (850) - £1000
Æthelred II (841-844, 844-848) - £150
Redwulf (844) - £400
Eanred (810-841) - £150
Aelfwald II (808-810) - £500+
Eardwulf (796-808) - £8,000+
Æthelred I (774-779, 789-796) - £300
Ælfwald I (779-788) - £2500
Alchred (765-774) - £500
Æthelwald Moll (759-765) - £5,000+
Eadberht (737-758) - £500
Gap: Eadwulf, Osred I, Coenred, Osric and Ceolwulf (704-737) - seems to correspond with Series J Sceattas (York) - £250
Aldfrith (685-704) - £1500
Some of these are only known by their coins - they may not even have existed, or might be archbishops. In reality, the dates are all over the place, with some reigns decades out according to some academics. There could be more kings that are just missing from the records or the coin evidence.
After Osberht is the Norse era, which gets confusing. There are coins from Osberht (848-867) to Aethelstan (924-939) but the region was split and there are gaps. The coins cost a lot too.
Here's my Northumbria piece, Archbishop of York. Wigmund 837-850. I've enjoyed reading the post...
Here is my set of Northumbrian:
Aldfrith
Eadberht
Aethelwald Moll
Alchred
Aethelred I
Aelfwald I
Eardwulf
Aelfwald II
Eanred
Aethelred II
Redwulf
Osberht
Hoaud (not a real king, just an irregular, but an interesting variety)
There are plenty of Henry VIII coins coming up at auction that I would guess will be well under £1000. Not perfect, but this is hammered coinage. The 2nd Coinage is the best value, but I don't know if you're considering that.
This at CNG is pretty good, but is probably going over £500 with commission (but not $1500):
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5369&lot=6936
St James have some nice ones. Their estimates are far too low but you could probably get one for about £500:
The strike on this is about as good as you can hope for, so it will go over £500: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5302&lot=140
This is a bit weak but the portrait is good and it could be under £500 https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5302&lot=143
A bit weak in places: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5302&lot=139
Stacks Bowers also have a few from the 2nd Coinage. I would guess these are heading for around £500 ($700) or less:
AU-53 https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5346&lot=7179
AU-53 https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5346&lot=7181
This could be less:
AU-50 https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5346&lot=7180
This at Spink from the 2nd Coinage may end up under £500 https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5367&lot=29
Heritage and DNW have some but they're pretty poor. But well under £500.
Of course, if you want the older, fatter bust (3rd Coinage), you have to pay more - it's less common and a little more characterful. It was debased, so good examples are scarce. But the 1st Coinage uses Henry VII's bust, so the 2nd Coinage isn't a bad option. If you have to have it graded, and graded MS, then you could pay a lot more, because not many at the cheaper end have been graded. Still, $1500 would give you a lot of choice given the above are well under that.
St James have this with the older bust, already over £500 but not a lot (yet):
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5302&lot=141
My Henry VIII groat is probably not high enough grade, but it cost £246 delivered 18 months or so ago, so you have quite a bit of room with £500 to upgrade it:
Henry VIII Second Coinage Groat, 1526-1532
Tower. 2.77g (S 2337E).
The full set! That's pretty amazing. It must have required a lot of patience to wait for some of those rarer ones to come up.
Thanks!
It took about 10 years to put this together.
Of the 12 coins, coins of Eanred and Aethelred II (1st and 2nd reigns) are very common. Eadberht, Aethelred I (2nd reign), Redwulf, and Osberht are a little scarcer but not rare. Aldfrith, Alchred, Aethelred I (1st reign), and Aelfwald I are rare. Aelfwald II is very rare. Aethelwald Moll and Eardwulf are extremely rare, with only 4 and 9 examples known respectively.
The sale of the Tony Abramson collection last year was an opportunity to obtain the rarer ones. He owned 5 of the 9 known coins of Eardwulf. I was able to obtain mine there, which completed my set.
I will certainly look forward to the Nap collection auction if it ever happens!