1914-D Lincoln Cent. Listing removed!
MarkW63
Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭
The obverse surface vs reverse surface?
The mint mark examples I have doesn't appear to show one with that much clockwise rotation?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
2
Comments
'D' appears to tilt too much cw.
Note: All genuine '14-D's have 'D' left, more in the direction of the '9' rather than the '1'. Further right 'D' more in direction of the '1' than the '9'? Definite counterfeit. The cracks on the reverse of the OP piece are bizarre. If this piece is genuine it is from '14-D obverse Die #2.
01/06/22 UPDATE: Not a coin for me but at this writing I'm leaning towards DCarr's assessment that the huge tilt of 'D' we're seeing is because of photography.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
my original post here is not really relevant to this discussion so I deleted it. I was merely addressing the FACT that, according to the Denver mint coiner's record from 1914 there are six obverse die positions for 1914-D. In other words, one example remains to be discovered. Also, #4 and #5 pictures could be showing the same die. If that is the case, then examples from two dies remain to be discovered.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The reverse of the coin looks to belong to a coin that's had some strange abuse that didn't effect the obverse for sure!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Not this again!
Here you go hijacking another thread and talking about your coin and how there is an extra unfound mint mark.
First you have an extra unknown mint mark for the SVDB and a "Whispering VDB" and now you have a new one for the 14D.
You say you sold this 1914 D so you will not be able to provide any additional information or photos.
The thread is about a counterfeit not your coin.
I know it's just killing you to not have 5000 posts and you are going to spam the forum to get there.
We have been down this road for the last 18 days and 5 threads.... I guess we can add one more to both.
Your overactive imagination and your desire to acquire stars & post is beyond ridiculous.
You bumped your other thread about the 1914 D, why didn't you keep your thoughts there rather than hijacking this one?
I notice you didn't say anything in your giveaway thread about mysterious mint marks, you don't want to trash your thread but you are more than happy to trash other peoples.
In your other 1914 D thread you said:
"I would have sworn that my coin did not match any of the five published."
"Now, my coin seems to match up pretty well with #5 just looking at the images."
"I had the coin in hand, appeared to me to be farther left than any of the five 'Ds' in the images. Logically then, if can be verified, my coin is from die #6."
You all have a PCGS photo of mintmark position #6 for 1914-D to look forward to.
I intend to identify all six obverse dies used from those images and will publish results here.
I still think my 1914-D might be an example from the sixth obverse die.
So you confirm that your coin matches #5 and then turn around and say it's the 6th obverse die.
I don't see where you published the results.
This seems to be an ongoing problem where you want to make a coin something it isn't.
You say one thing and then contradict yourself with the very next post.
We see this all the time with new members and Walmart parking lot finds.
I see in the information provided in the other thread that US Mint records show 6 obverse & 7 reverse dies were used.
Only 5 have been identified by members here and images on CoinFacts.
Could a 6th mint mark position be found? Yes
The problem here is your mint mark appears to match the one shown as #5 and you confirmed that when you had the coin in hand. If you wanted to prove something different you should have done it before you sold the coin.
Another one of your recent comments was "I don't want to annoy folks here."
It's very annoying to hijack threads with an overactive imagination.
Every time you touch your keyboard you are disrupting the forum and making yourself look silly.
I have never seen a cent with marks like that on the reverse.... some seem incuse while others appear to be raised. I will wait for some expert input on that issue...but sure looks like a fake. Cheers, RickO
100% a problem coin to stay away from. Looks heavily processed to me.
Collector, occasional seller
You bumped your other thread about the 1914 D, why didn't you keep your thoughts there rather than hijacking this one?
I'm not hijacking anything. Any reasonable person should be able to see that.
My thread about '14-D die varieties got bumped naturally because I wanted to show off my new Harsche. It's a beauty. Check out the Harsche cover of "Detecting Altered Coins" with the artist image of a magnifying glass over a 1944-D altered to appear as a 1914-D. Didn't want to be taking a scruffy Harsche with no covers with me when showing my S VDB to dealers for opinions.
btw, I didn't sell that PCGS authenticated (#42698577) '14-D that I paid $1 for. I gave it to my brother. He is delighted with it.
Why not try to identify all six die varieties yourself? You'll find that '14-D 'D' positions aren't as easy to see as 'S' positions on '09 S VDB.
It's kind of silly activity to be running up my LOL count isn't it? Do I need to involve Einstein here? Do I?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Honestly at first look, I thought the coin was genuine.
Nice eye @MarkW63 to catch the over rotation (slant) of the mintmark.
I would say that it is indeed a fake.
A picture of the edge might show that the "d" was embossed.
If I had the coin in my possession, I would try the acetone dip to see if the mintmark falls off.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
The coin is definitely a strange one. That reverse is screwy looking. The "D" looks like the correct style.
It looks closest to position 2.
.......................only in horseshoes, though.
Pete
Saved from another edit.
In your other thread you said,
"Unfortunately, I will not have the coin in hand again as I have a customer for it."
Now you say
"I didn't sell that PCGS authenticated 14-D......... I gave it to my brother."
Sorry. I guess I am confused again.
A "customer" would imply you are selling the coin, and you said "I will not have the coin in hand again", this could suggest you don't know the "customer" well enough to have access to the coin again.
Why didn't you say "I'm giving it to my brother" ???
If you were nice enough to give it to your brother wouldn't he be nice enough to let you borrow the coin back to confirm your research and make your big numismatic discovery?
Now that you have 5000 posts and your 5th star can you give it a rest?
Okay, I'm looking at the fairly new looking details of the obverse, well defined rim, date, mint mark, LIBERTY, Hair, etc.... and then on the flip side I see lots of the opposite, extremely worn rim along the bottom, and even what looks like green copper corrosion in among the letters of E-PULRIBUS it brings to my mind something like, could this coin have been refaced? I mean I've never heard of that.
But, is it possible that say the back of a genuine Lincoln was sliced away then maybe heated directly for the main heat source to weld the obverse to and thus leaving the reverse so parched looking???
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
It's just my opinion, but I think once you level the obverse's writing the 'D' appears to be less cw tilting and may match #2. But then that leaves us with the reverse.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The reverse looks like an unusual strike thru or very unusual die damage.
There is a chance this would be a good indicator that is is not a genuine US mint product.
The D mint mark not being in one of the correct positions for the 5 "identified" placements would be another big red flag.
With 2 problems like this on a key date there is a very good chance this is a counterfeit.
Edited to add: Reported
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284581465500
I wonder what it weighs.
The reverse surely reminds me of an ant farm. lol
The theory of a heat source is a very good thought.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Just ordered a copy of your Bible Harsche; seems like a blast from the past but I just have to see the clandestine and whispering VDB 1909-S VDBs...
Just ordered a copy of your Bible Harsche
Harsche is a pioneer in detecting altered coins. I don't think you'll be disappointed. How much are you paying for your Harsche, if I may ask? I paid almost as much in postage to have the Harsche sent to me as I spent on the Harsche itself.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@burfle23 Dang it! I'll bet you ordered the 4th.
I know I'm gonna need a 5th or a gallon before we are through.
Harsche focuses primarily on 1909-S and 1909-S VDB. 1914-D not so much. There is no information or images there about different 1914-D dies used. Maybe I can get ahold of the publisher and we can update Harsche for 1914-D penny AND 1909-S VDB.
Roll the presses again for a sixth edition of Detecting Altered Coins by Bert Harsche with contributions from mr1874!
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Jim, here is the best I can do with lines to show rotation, I was as careful to bring the two lines up close to both side of the bar on the "D"
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Wait a da** minute!
Lets take a much closer look at an overlooked area of the outside of the rim and let me ask this,
What am I'm looking at?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
For sure a counterfeit, add the link to get more people reporting.
You’re looking at something you can’t prove is anything more than just damage
Th> @MsMorrisine said:
Well, were back to mint mark rotation, it appears to be several degrees off from the examples we know of.
Then, I'll make note to this.
I was a forklift mechanic full time the last seven year at my job, they were battery operated (36volt) and they were packed with heavy copper bar electrical contacts that had to be replaced pretty often.
Well, at one point I was scraping them, but first I was using a burning torch and heating them up to melt and remove the silver solder contacts and when I did there was areas of the copper that would take on that odd blueish color that's on the coin! But, there are lots ways a coin could have gotten hot enough to cause a color change, but so much damage to one side of such a thin piece of copper?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@MarkW63 "but so much damage to one side of such a thin piece of copper?"
The reverse appears to be a strike thru and would explain why it is only on one side.
Link to the item.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284581465500
Nice analysis! Very clever!
10 feet.
That is as close as I will get to that reverse.
Another oddity with this coin, if this means anything?
I lined LIBERTY and took a screen shot! then with the line floating I just dragged it over to the date.
I did the same thing on a PCGS sample.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I am reluctant to use those lines.
The letters LIBERTY generally don’t lie along a line
The ones over the date don’t cross the numbers in the same place. The top one looks crooked.
Your right about the LIBERTY. On the coin in the OP I started with the line at the bottom of LIBERTY, it lined up fine, then I grabbed the center of the line (not the end) and I drug it to the date, the date was out of line.
So, then I needed a good example, I found that PCGS image. So I started with the line at LIBERTY, but I couldn't use the bottom, the L was a tad high, so I opted for the top of the letters, that worked PERFECT on the sample image.
So, I was forced to redo the lines on the OP coin, I went to the top of LIBERTY, grabbed the line in the center and moved it to the date, the date was just as out of line.
None of the lines are crooked with LIBERTY, dragging the line @ the center you can't change the angle, you have to do that at the ends of the lines.
Again, this may not mean anything, but the date unlike the sample doesn't follow the same line as LIBERTY.
What made me notice this in the first place?
Go up a few post and look at the OP coin image that Jim posted, he corrected the rotation of the image.
Okay, bring his image into view, them scroll it up until LIBERTY is resting at the browser window LINE, now roll it up until the date is resting on that same line!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I think there is a good possibility that it is a genuine 1914-D, mint-mark position #2.
Lens distortion can make things look more or less tilted than they actually are.
As for the reverse, I would bet that is a form of corrosion. I have seen some similar (and strange) corrosion patterns on large cents.
Even if real, that reverse is a total deal breaker..
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I thought beauty was only skin deep
I'd like to put that coin in a frying pan on HIGH and turn it more blue and see if it would fall apart
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@dcarr
Besides the tilt it appears a little lower but as you said lens distortion can do some funny stuff.
It's not just lens distortion lighting and photo skills can change the look a lot.
The reverse looks more like a strike thru, the edges are crisp much like you see on a struck thru wire.
Wouldn't corrosion be a little more jagged?
Do you have any photos of the large cents you have seen?
I have never seen corrosion or rust that makes crisp, clean lines.
Where the fields meet the design elements you would tend to get a little more corrosion or bleed as it followed the devise.
It appears some of the struck thru material may be retained on the right rim by the wheat stalk.
The whole reverse is soo messed up that you would think traces would repeat on another coin.
With as many eyes that are on key dates there is a chance it would have been spotted before now.
There is also a chance that the problem only repeated on a few coins and they were lost or damaged and never seen.
I have also seen one US coin die (Pre 1900) that was canceled by the mint and then later chrome plated to preserve it that had almost the exact same pattern but I always thought it was a byproduct of the chrome plating.
Maybe that die rusted/corroded and that is why it was taken out of service.
The die may have also struck thru some material that damaged the die.
I think I may have a photo of that die somewhere but it may take a bit to find it.
The coin appears to have enough questions that it needs to be authenticated by a TPG and at this point I would not buy this coin as genuine.
Thank you in advance for any insight and I hope either one of us can find a photo to share.
Edited to add:
If the die was corroded wouldn't the corrosion go into the surface of the die and then be raised on the coin, the lines look incuse.
If it's corrosion on the coin as you mentioned or stuck thru something it appears there is some of it left on the coin.
The coin looks like it can't quite decide if it wants to appear circulated or Unc.
The color is off and the reverse has that kinda shoe polish toning look. Again could just be the photos
The obverse rim is full and the reverse rim is weak from 2 - 6 o'clock.
Any one of these things may not be a problem but the combination of them bothers me along with the mint mark.
The whole thing just screams fake to me.
Edited to add:
I have looked at well over a million small cents and have never seen anything like this on one.
On the other hand I have looked at well under a thousand large cents and would love to see an example if you find one.
If it can happen on a large cent it can happen on a small cent.
It also seems unusual that you could have sever enough corrosion to remove that much metal and have near MS/AU surfaces next to it. I would expect to see some corrosion somewhere else on the coin.
I did find a photo of the die I mentioned. The lines are very similar but were limited to around the rim they didn't go into the center of the die and through the devises. I'm not sure how this helps to prove or disprove what is going on with the OP coin. It does confirm that somewhere in the coining or storage process this pattern can appear on coins or dies. These lines were incuse in the die and would have left raised lines on a coin. If it was corrosion on the die that was not cleaned off before striking it could leave incuse lines in the coin. Once the corrosion started to break up from striking you could have a combination of raised & incuse lines. It could also show that whatever left this pattern could happen with a coin and/or other types of metal and the die may not be part of the puzzle.
Again, thank you in advance for any insight.
"Metalworms" damage - more aggressive than their distant cousins the "Woodworms" that burrow through rotting wood............
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I think there is a good possibility that it is a genuine 1914-D, mint-mark position #2.
Lens distortion can make things look more or less tilted than they actually are.
The date also appears to be somewhat doubled so you might be onto something with this observation. It's just a funky looking coin to me. Too much not to like about it for my taste.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
A 1914 D takes some fairly good price jumps per grade and starting in VF -30 should justify the cost of grading.
The coin is not as marketable without authentication and even with a details grade should justify the cost of grading.
If the coin was straight graded with a strike thru error it could greatly increase the value of the coin.
The reverse is too good to be true and yet it is too bad to be true.
If the coin was mine I would send it in, there is very little down side unless it comes back not genuine.
If the coin was mine and I decided to not have it graded and wanted to list it on ebay I would make some mention in my listing.
With human nature and common listing practices it would not be uncommon for a seller to mention in the listing something like corroded, details or unknown damage for full disclosure. It would also not be uncommon for a seller to try to promote it as a one of a kind, error, strike thru or even a cute name like lightning reverse.
It seems a little strange there is no mention in the listing about the reverse in any way.
The seller doesn't seem to write long descriptions or titles for most of their listings so this may not be out of place or deceptive in any manor but the seller does mention points on other listings like details or strike thru.
The seller could believe it is genuine but was in a hurry to list it or didn't know how to properly describe it and left it for the buyer to review the photos and decide for themselves. This is not an attack on the seller or saying there is anything dishonest about the listing and every seller lists and describes things differently.
After looking at the coin more and looking at photos of other genuine examples the coin almost looks like it has accented hair.
With a genuine example the hair appears to flow or have a natural wave, with this coin the hair has what appears to be extra details and more strands showing. The hair is one of the deepest parts of the die and doesn't tend to strike up well and the 1914 D isn't known for hammered strikes. This would seem to be a
As mentioned above
in my eyes.
The mint mark appears in the photos to be slightly tilted and a little low for the 5 positions shown. Again could just be the photos
The color is off and the reverse has that kinda shoe polish toning look of online replicas. Again could just be the photos
The color in the sellers other photos seems fairly close so chances are the color shown is fairly close.
The color also seems off for an environmentally damaged or corroded cent. This could also be a
The obverse rim is full and the reverse rim is weak from 2 - 6 o'clock. Another possible
It also seems unusual that you could have sever enough corrosion to remove that much metal and have near MS/AU surfaces next to it. I would expect to see some corrosion somewhere else on the coin. This is a
The coin looks like it can't quite decide if it wants to appear circulated or Unc. There are contact marks or circulation on the obverse and yet no flat spots showing wear. Another possible
I have looked at many small cents and have never seen this type of pattern or damage. That would be another
The 1914 D has many low quality alterations and counterfeits that are easy to spot, it also has some very good counterfeits that a genuine coin was used to make dies and expert authentication is needed.
Many times with coins you need to go with your gut instinct or first impression. If you have spent many years looking at millions of coins you get a feel for it. A good counterfeit or alteration can be very hard to detect and a considerable amount of time can be spent on a coin. You are not always able to spend time with the coin "in hand" and that is where you need to rely on your gut feeling. When I get that feeling it's a big
with this coin and sometimes you need to use Occam's razor.
It's kinda like when someone asks you if a copper coin has been cleaned and you tell them the color is off.
They will ask you "how is it off" and you are not always able to put it in words and you say "I can just tell."
There are enough red flags
Much like when attributing a 1909 S VDB you only need to see the mint mark is in the wrong place and you're done.
Also on a 1893 S Morgan if the date placement is wrong or the die gouge in the T is missing you're done.
There is no need to over think it and no matter how good the rest of the coin looks you have a problem.
I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.
I am sure enough this coin will fail to be deemed authentic by our host that I will give anyone $150 toward the cost of grading but you must get the TrueView so that the photos are searchable online with PCGS.
Any other photos will not qualify for the $150 (You can still share other photos with the forum.)
Any straight grade, genuine, cleaned, corroded or details grade will qualify for the $150. (In holder with TrueView)
Any body bag, not genuine, questionable authenticity, altered surfaces etc. will not qualify for the $150
The $150 will be sent as a US Postal money order via USPS with tracking.
I found the coin that is subject of this thread on ebay last evening as I was shopping for '14-D's. It's over $1000 for one to make theirs. There is a 30-day return privilege. Getting Truview image can take a long time. A recent submission of a 1915 Lincoln that I own (my brother actually made the submission) took over two months to get Trueview made of the piece.
Here's the link to the auction... https://www.ebay.com/itm/284581465500?hash=item4242608d9c:g:PokAAOSwGeFhnC-g
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Well, hard bet to take- listing is gone...
After reading all he posts, the info is kinda overwhelming. Before reading I'd probably not even think much about the coin authenticity. After reading the members comments, I have reservations about the coin. I'm leaning to questionable and would not buy. The knowledge of these members is just awesome.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
Seller might have taken listing down for better imaging. No way to know at this time. I know when was a seller on ebay, imaging coins I was trying to sell there was a big pain in the you-know-what. So,a good many marginal seller images got put up on ebay by me. Of course, I wasn't trying to sell $1000 coins there like this '14-D, subject of the OP, was.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
It wasn't the seller because when the seller takes an item down, the listing remains and is closed and labeled "No Longer Available"
Anytime you run an ebay link and this default missing listing page is displayed that means ebay removed the listing.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Yes, eBay removed the listing.
And this is what you see what the seller pulls the listing!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!