09SVDB 100% Success, both listings PULLED! Happy New Year!!

MarkW63

Mint mark font?
Periods in the designers initials?
For discussion purposes opinions on any other aspects of the coin are welcome.
I don't know of any type of reporting with this listing as of yet?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/324967390564?hash=item4ba990dd64:g:cosAAOSwsA5hwcA7

MsMorrisine

Previously listed, previously nuked

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13125717/#Comment_13125717

MsMorrisine

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?sid=ferchak48&_pgn=1&isRefine=true&_trksid=p2047675.m3561.l49496

burfle23

This is the crib I use for review:

golden

Reported.

Steven59

@MsMorrisine said:
[Previously listed, previously nuked]

I thought that looked familiar.

EDIT: Gone already - that was fast

burfle23

eBay removed the listing.

MarkW63

That disappeared in a flash
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtzULc_LA3w

MarkW63

Okay, seeing how that one was easily taken care of what about this one!
The seller is OUTSIDE the US!
The coin isn't marked COPY!
Listings like this could be a source of these foreign counterfeits?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154680907160?hash=item2403b35598:g:q9QAAOSwUc1hwtTY

MsMorrisine

Start a new thread on new items

jesbroken

At least this seller says that it is a hand made souvenir and not real.
Jim

"Souvenir Coin not original, just for collection"

golden

Reported also.

MsMorrisine

@MarkW63 said:
Okay, seeing how that one was easily taken care of what about this one!
The seller is OUTSIDE the US!
The coin isn't marked COPY!
Listings like this could be a source of these foreign counterfeits?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154680907160?hash=item2403b35598:g:q9QAAOSwUc1hwtTY

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?sid=bojanpopovi0&_pgn=1&isRefine=true&_trksid=p2047675.m3561.l49496

MarkW63

@jesbroken said:
At least this seller says that it is a hand made souvenir and not real.
Jim

"Souvenir Coin not original, just for collection"

Yep, but we've came across a couple of these in the past and the general consensus was that if the coin wasn't stamped "COPY" its illegal because the coin is then classed as counterfeited US currency.

MarkW63

@burfle23 said:
This is the crib I use for review:

I like how your images was grouped, so I took the liberty to permanently barrow them, okay, I stole them

MsMorrisine

eBay does not allow copy currency and coins as a matter of policy

mr1931S

mr1874

mr1931S

mr1874

MsMorrisine

Somewhere on this forum is a thread where our former resident researcher posted a photograph of the original mint record listing the number of dies used.

It is unmistakably 4 obverse and 1 reverse

Steven59

@mr1874 said:

[Sharp N is seen on some 1909 cents, including 1909-S, according to new research findings. ]

I would hardly call vague information from a 1964 pamphlet "New research"
>

MarkW63

@mr1874
This from PCGS Website!
https://www.pcgs.com/news/counterfeit-vs-authentic-1909-s-vdb-lincoln-cents

mr1931S

mr1874

mr1931S

mr1874

MarkW63

@mr1874 said:
I would hardly call vague information from a 1964 pamphlet "New research"

The new research I'm talking about is from ifthevamsarockin's shallow N, deep N thread. btw, my pamphlet is not from 1964.

From ifthevamsarockin's thread. Bolding is mine:

The usage of the reverse dies appears to be as listed
1909 Proof Type 1 only
1909 VBD Proof Type 1 only
1909 S VDB Type 1 only
1909 S Type 1 & Type 2
1909 P VDB Type 1 & Type 2
1909 P Type 1 & Type 2

So, with all due respect to Daughtrey, to say Sharp N is "reverse of 1910" is only partly true if the new research is valid.

Remember, what's in question here is only the 1909S-VDB! which from the currenly found information only has one reverse.
I don't see the need for the other four 09 coins as any help to authenticating the 09S-VDB in this thread, not that its not good information.

ifthevamzarockin

@MsMorrisine
I think I know who the former member you are talking about is and may try to reach out to them for more info.

Information I have now would suggest more than one reverse die was used but I am unable to confirm that at this time and don't want to give out false information. My additional research on the reverse dies may take some time.

mr1931S

mr1874

MarkW63

@mr1874
As posted above.

And this in an earlier thread.

MsMorrisine

Perhaps I’m passing out incorrect information

This is not the thread I remember, but does show only 4 obverse dies.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/703207/1909-lincoln-cent-die-list-san-francisco-mint

The document, different than referenced in the above, lies somewhere in the NNP probably

It is unfortunate that the thread on here only gave a photograph

mr1931S

mr1874

thefinn

How do you stop the idiots from bidding on them because they are such a good deal?

MarkW63

@thefinn said:
How do you stop the idiots from bidding on them because they are such a good deal?

That's a very good question, that don't seem to have an answer!

MsMorrisine

@mr1874 said:
Somewhere on this forum is a thread where our former resident researcher posted a photograph of the original mint record listing the number of dies used.
That would be good to see for 1909-S V.D.B. The only mint record I've seen in this forum indicating number of obverse dies used is for 1914-D.

It is unmistakably 4 obverse and 1 reverse.

I allow for the possibility that some S VDB's could have been surreptitiously struck, in which case all bets are off as to only four obverse and one reverse die used to make 1909-S VDB's.

Actually it looks like the link I provided indicates more than 1 reverse die

It looks like I’m mistaken

That link isn’t to the thread I recall though

mr1931S

mr1874

MarkW63

@mr1874
Your questionable coin came up in a couple of former threads on the forum.
On those it was concluded that,
the coin has the correct known mint mark location for an 09-S (no VDB)!
the coin appeared to be in a genuine PCGS holder!
it didn't seem possible to acquire better image showing more detail of the designer's initials???
the general consensus was,
its possible to be an altered 09-S and if so then somehow it slipped by PCGS?
Because of the circumstances around your coin, (oddities) it was concluded the only way to settle its authenticity would be to resubmit it to PCGS.
To which I had offered up $50.00 if the coin came back a one of a kind genuine!
My offer still stands!
Your coin is very interesting, but were back to the dead horse thing again
I know of at lest two people here who spent a good deal of time searching current information to explain a fifth obverse die for the 09SVDB that would position the mint mark to match your, and neither person could find anything.

mr1931S

There could be other genuine S VDB's like mine out there. I hope there are. Clandestine strikings of coins abound in numismatic history. I had a famous dealer once show me a Liberty Seated dime that blew me away. He wanted $25,000 for it but told me he didn't care if he sold it or not. It was an 1891-O, mint state condition, with a tiny 's' right in the center of the 'O'. Clandestine strikings at the mints have happened throughout history. The 1891-O dime with an 's' inside the 'O' is just one example of that. I would bet that piece is unique. I doubt anyone here has ever heard of such a thing but I saw it with my own eyes....Absolutely, an authentic New Orleans mint (or could it be San Francisco mint?) product.

mr1931S

mr1874

MarkW63

@mr1874 said:
Markw63 you are, or were, calling for me to crack my coin out of its holder and submit it raw. That's not gonna happen just so you know.

Not True!
I never recommended you to crack the slab!
That came up as just an option to make sure the coin wouldn't bypass the grading process and go straight to an upgraded slab.
It was an option in a list of options!
I offered the $50.00 if you sent it back to PCGS to re-certify it, I never put a restriction of,
if you crack the case and send it in!
My $50.00 offer still stands for "recertification"
Its most certain that the issue around your coin isn't going to be settled in a discussion on a forum. You talked like you were going to resubmit it, and we're on hold for the results of that?

mr1931S

WE'RE not on hold for the results of anything.

MarkW63

@mr1874 said:
WE'RE not on hold for the results of anything.

At several points in the past you were leaning towards re-submitting it!
We ran out of road on the forum to resolve it on our own in a joint effort!
You started your own person threads trying to resolve the issue with your coin!
If you resubmit the coin and PCGS re-certifies it to be genuine then you would be out the whatever the cost, and if that happens I'm willing to cover $50.00 of that!
It had been stated that PCGS has certification guarantees if they had certified a coin to be genuine and was later found out not to be! which would mean if you resubmitted it and they found a problem from their earlier finding then you would receive some type of compensation from them!
I'm willing to put up the $50.00 because of all the current information we can find about your coin, and the little we can't, I've got $50.00 in believing the coin isn't going to come back certified!
If your not going to send it back in, and you lock the coin away, that cloud of doubt goes with it.
I do not KNOW this, but I'm more on the side of it being an altered 1909-S (non VDB) and I'm willing to pay $50.00 to confirm it.
I'm not going to debate your coin, lots of forum members has looked at your coin, lots of time has been giving to your coin.
So, we're back to this!

mr1931S

mr1874

MarkW63

Just checked on the second counterfeit coin and the listing is still UP!
From what I can gather there is maybe three reports in on the listing!
Listings like this is a direct source of flow for these counterfeits!

MsMorrisine

That’s why you start new threads

burfle23

I reported this latest one as well.

mr1931S

mr1874

burfle23

eBay removed the listing...

MarkW63

@burfle23 said:
I reported this latest one as well.

Thanks!
Getting these fake listings removed is the goal + being educational for anyone interested in being able to better spot these counterfeit/altered coins is the reason for these 09SVDB threads.

MarkW63

@burfle23 said:
eBay removed the listing...

POOF! gone.
Perfect!
This was another successful group effort in getting a counterfeit listing removed.
Big Thanks To Everyone,
Great Job

ifthevamzarockin

@MarkW63 I see you used a horse instead of the mule I tried to pass off as the real deal.

mr1931S

mr1874

ifthevamzarockin

So you want ebay to confirm it's fake rather than PCGS confirming it's fake?

ifthevamzarockin

@mr1874 said:
Should put my PCGS F15 SVDB on ebay and see if they remove it.

I just want to quote this before you had a chance to edit it.