Capped Bust, $10,000 MS64……How does a coin get graded like this?
Herb_T
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The photos say it all……Heritage Auction so I have to believe they did their due diligence, but how does a coin like this get graded anything but Details?
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The gouge looks so darn fresh.
It does which makes you wonder….it’s in the photo at NGC!
Because grading is subjective. And so is the threshold for what makes a coin a details grade.
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That sold for $10,000? I couldn't find it in the Heritage Auction archives.
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That coin is for sale now, but PCGS PRICE BOOK LISTS this coin at MS64 at $10,000. My wording is misleading in the sense that it hasn’t sold yet….but that coin could go for that amount. Sorry
How do you know this?
Heck of a scar, but a Gem 65 without it (IMO). One mark takes it where? Half price? One third? One grade down, two?
I'm not sure I agree with the grade, but not sure I disagree either. Putting that coin in a Details holder seems sacrilegious. It's all about price now.
Last few NGC 64's sold at or about 4,000., not 10,000. I doubt that coin gets North of 5.
Without the scar? Well, it probably wouldn't be a 64, and it'd almost surely get North of 10., also my opinion.
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Todd - BHNC #242
Looks like a staple scratch from a cardboard 2x2 to me. If it was an old scratch and had toned over maybe.. MS64 seems wrong to me, NET MS60.
The gouge is in a spot where it isn’t as distracting as it could Be, which is a determining factor in details grading as well. It’ll certainly affect the price, though.
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See a coin like this is a two edge sword at least for me as an ethical dealer. If you sent this in and miraculously pulled a 64 grade, youd be tickled, but on the other hand, you would hate to offer this coin to a customer knowing its a bad purchase. Best thing is to throw something like this in an auction and let the buyer buy on his own merits with no ties to you or your business (undisclosed consignor). Smart move IMO, if this is the case. No way should that coin carry a 64, 61-2 at best IMO , no matter how nice the rest of the coin is.
I wouldn’t want to own it and sometime later decide I needed to sell it…..
Your observation is a good one, not one I had thought of. I did wonder if that happened at NGC, hence overlooking it…..
With that photo, it's too hard for me to judge that particular coin, but I have one in my collection that is similar enough to be (I think) a useful comparison. This quarter is an easy 65, with great lustre and color, except it has a staple scratch on the neck. In its favor, the scratch is old and has toned with the rest of the coin, so while it's there, it's not really distracting. It's not in the prime focal area, and I (and many who have seen it in hand) consider it pretty darn appealing. It's in a 63 holder, which I think is great--that grade allowed it to be priced at a level where I could buy it (17+ years ago)--and I think it's fair. The scratch is there and affected the grade, but it's not an in-your-face fresh scratch that draws your eye away from everything else. Going back to the half in question, if it's a really fresh scratch, it may catch light in a very distracting way and you could easily say it should get a details grade. If the coin is a 66 without the scratch and maybe it's not as terrible in hand, perhaps the fact that the scratch is hidden away a bit in an area with a lot of design details meant NGC decided it wasn't bad enough to warrant a no-grade. Or they screwed up... but I can't say that with the photos available to us.
1.2 million of them made and cheap in circulated grades. Seems the only thing rare about this coin is the MS64 number on the label. I'd find something else to buy for $4560 (price guide is way off) https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/item/1817-50c/6109/-7429916236510237671
Hasn’t that scratch clearly been filled in with some sort of foreign substance?
I can point you to a seller that has a PCGS graded semi key date coin graded MS64 with a much larger staple scratch in a prime focal area than seen on this coin. TPG's under the current market grading format make decisions about what is or is not market acceptable not just its grade. You may not agree but that is the way the system works. If you disagree with the grade handed out by NGC or PCGS (or substitute the grading service of your choice) you have the option to pass.
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I would be a hard pass on that coin.
If you’re taking about the white appearance, that’s the reflection of light hitting fresh metal.
If you are a grade finalizer you need to catch that and net grade or details IMO.
Looking carefully at the enlarged pictures, the mark extends to the space between the curls... As if, at one time it was a struck through that retained material and recently lost the retention...with the tarnished portion having been lost much earlier. It is a direct continuation of the 'shiny' portion. My first impression was a gouge as well... but it looks just too convenient... and perhaps that is what the graders saw. JMO... open to further discussion. Cheers, RickO
Here's a link to the auction, if you like to zoom in and out on the images: https://coins.ha.com/itm/bust-half-dollars/half-dollars/1817-50c-o-109-r3-ms64-ngc-vivid-cobalt-blue-and-violet-toning-in-the-margins-frames-orange-gold-interiors-on-this-near/a/132152-29255.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515#
If you magnify this mark enough, you can make it look like the Grand Canyon. I'm guessing the NGC graders thought this coin was an otherwise MS65 but dropped it a grade point because of this mark. I'd have to see the coin in-hand to make a final judgement. I'm guessing this mark is less obvious when viewed in-hand that what some here believe.
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To the OP and the rest of the forum, what about this coin that has been straight graded? Did it get a pass because it is a key date or something else?
Another interesting example to debate! Yes the scratches and marks are toned over and probably circulated for a while after being violated, but still……yikes. Regardless of key date status, it shouldn’t straight grade IMO.
To add, looking at CoinFacts just now at several other straight grade examples being offered for sale, the services must be forgiving on this key date. Or maybe I’m overly critical.
Regardless of what you think of that or any other NGC coin, or whether you were trying to be funny, your post was inappropriate.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Are my eyes deceiving me? That gouge looks like it happened yesterday to me. Maybe NGC accidentally damaged it and made up for it with their grade. LOL... I don't know that but trying to come up with some plausible explanation.
Either way, as nice as the coin looks otherwise, I'd take a pass.
Mark
I would like to see it in a 3 holder if toned over, a 2 holder if shiny but it is what it is.
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I’d market that one as the Lizzie Borden variety. Good grief.
I would never buy the coin in the OP. Regardless of whether it straight graded or not, it is a problem coin and will be tough to move. It will forever remain a CACless wonder.
Well, that’s why the “sight unseen” thing never really worked out.
If you want to buy certain kinds of coins, it’s probably better to look at them first.
Sight unseen is working fine.
More and more high value coins like the OP are bought image only.
If the pics are good and you know how to evaluate it will continue to thrive.
Sight unseen means there are no pictures. A dealer may advertise he needs 100 common date PCGS MS64 Morgan dollars for example. He will be buying them sight unseen by him although they were seen by the professional graders at PCGS.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Sight unseen has absolutely nothing to do with pictures. It means buying without the ability to first see it in hand before making a final buy/don't buy decision. A seller may have the greatest pics in the world but if he has a no return policy then it is sight unseen. OTOH, he may have the worst pics ever taken--or even none at all--but, if the buyer can order the coin, look at it in hand and then return it if he wishes then it is a sight-seen transaction.
I still shake my head when I see that coin. I saw it at a show and was salivating until I got a close look and was like OMG!
Nobody has purchased sight unseen in decades.
I have seen it referred to as image only. OK I misunderstood.
That's not completely true. Dealer exchanges do flip coins with no pictures.
Yes, it popped up in my want list in the grade range I am searching for. I liked it until I saw all the scratches!
I was referring retail but yes that is true for wholesale, And also there are some dealers on collectors corner who still do not provide images
It's kind of weird that Heritage even shuffled past the gouge in their description:
1817 50C O-109, R.3, MS64 NGC. Vivid cobalt-blue and violet toning in the margins frames orange-gold interiors on this near-Gem O-109 half dollar. The strike is sharp throughout the border stars and central devices, and only a few light marks on Liberty's cheek prevent Gem classification. Census: 14 in 64 (1 in 64+), 3 finer (12/21).
Does nobody think we can see the obvious imperfection?
Mark
I was looking at the write up too....
Is it possible that Heritage owns this coin?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Is there any possibility that the mark was obtained after its visit to the grading room but prior to being slabbed? Looks pretty fresh.......
Best, SH
According to this from the PCGS site, they will holder a coin with a scratch as detail (95) but will not describe the problem as a scratch on the holder.
I would think they would not ever straight grade a coin with an obvious scratch if you go by that but we have all seen otherwise.
That’s odd, as they certainly give details grades that include ‘Scratch” on the grading label. Below is just one example and I’ve seen many others.
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/item/1923-1/7360/-3949219057166549655
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I maybe have them somewhere, but I have had mid-1800s coins grade with FAR LESS damage in the form of an OLD hairline bagged for scratch by both services. I find this labelling to not always be consistent, IMO the OP coin is a rather poor example of a graded damaged coin.
Well, just Love coins, period.
That wouldn't change the way they describe it.
I think I'd PASS, because of the gouge...It's distracting.
It looks MUCH wider and deeper than a staple scratch would be.
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How would you know that for sure?