Hibler and Kappen So-Called Half Dollars

Zoins

To further the ongoing discussions with others on the size qualifications of So-Called Dollars, I decided to take a survey of how many undersized So-Called Dollars are listed in the So-Called Dollar reference by Harold E. Hibler and Charles Vaughan Kappen.

H&K says that all pieces should be 33mm to 45mm (except Bryan Dollars which can be larger), but it actually includes over 30 HK numbers assigned to 32mm pieces, so it's not an accident. The HK numbers are listed below.

From a consistency perspective, it seems like the two options are:

1. Keep the definition and delist the pieces as So-Called Dollars. They can be called So-Called Half Dollars.
2. Keep the pieces and change the definition to include 32mm.

From a consistency perspective, either of these two approaches seems preferable to the current state of having some 32mm pieces included and others excluded.

Here's my 32mm HK-364 which is likely a US Mint piece:

1909 Alaska Yukon Pacific Expo US Building Dollar
Catalog: HK-364
Pedigree: Howard Hornreich

The following are copy and pasted from https://so-calleddollars.com/

1. HK-353 Silver. 32mm.
2. HK-354 Bronze.
3. HK-355 Copper.
4. HK-356 Gilt.
5. HK-356a Silver-plated Bronze. 32mm.
6. HK-728a Bronze. Smaller barrel and text on barrel. 32mm.
7. HK-917 Copper, plain edge. 32mm.
8. HK-469 Gilt. 32mm.
9. HK-469a Gilt. 32mm.
10. HK-474a Gilt. 32mm.
11. HK-787 Silver. Numbers engraved, not punched. Total struck, 101. Zerbe 1.
12. HK-788 Silver. Scrolls at sides of State Seal; line above Colo. Approximately 210 struck. Zerbe
13. HK-788a Same without number on obverse.
    HK-789 Silver. Approximately 500 struck. Zerbe
14. HK-789a Same without number on obverse.
    HK-790 Silver. Approximately 10 pieces, die trials, were struck and bank punch was discarded. Zerbe
15. HK-790a Same without number on obverse.
16. HK-791 Silver. Zerbe
17. HK-791a Same without number on obverse.
18. HK-792 Same, but stamped J. M. Slusher / Cripple Creek, Colo. Approximately 260 stamped. Zerbe 6
19. HK-793 Same, but stamped Sam Cohen / Victor, Colo. Approximately 50 stamped. Zerbe 7.
20. HK-794 Same, but stamped D. W. Klein & Co. / Pueblo, Colo. Approximately 100 stamped. Dr. Whiteley reports knowledge of an additional hoard of 17. Zerbe 8.
21. HK-795 Same, but stamped Geo. Mullen / Victor, Colo. Approximately 100 stamped. Zerbe 9.
22. HK-795a Same without number on obverse.
23. HK-796 Same, but stamped Boyd Park / Denver, Colo. Approximately 150 stamped. Zerbe 10.
24. HK-796a Same without number on obverse.
25. HK-797 Same, but stamped W. C. Alexander / Jeweler / Salida, Colo. Second A in Salida is inverted V. Approximately 50 stamped Zerbe 11.
26. HK-917 Copper, plain edge. 32mm
27. HK-1016 Silver. 35mm. Reported by Dr. Philip W. Whiteley. Zerbe 17.
28. HK-1017 Same, but stamped Goodspeeds & Co. / 26 Pikes Peak Ave. Name engraved and serial number punched. Approximately 15 stamped. Zerbe 12.
29. HK-1018 Same, but stamped J. E. Nelson & Co. / Holdrege, Neb. Presented to customers during formal opening of the Nelson store. Approximately 50 stamped. Zerbe 13.
30. HK-1019 Same, but stamped W. F. White Merc. Co. / Grand Jct., Colo. Approximately 50 stamped. Zerbe 14.
31. HK-1019a Same without number on obverse.
32. HK-1020 Same, but engraved H. Stein. Zerbe 15.
33. HK-1021 Same, but engraved H. H. Rosser. Zerbe 16.
34. HK-1021a Same, but engraved A.W. Clark / Druggist / Denver, Colo. Zerbe 18.

Zoins

I didn't include the following oval piece in the post above, but using the approach of measuring octagonals from flat to flat mentioned by @tokenpro, it seems like the following also would not qualify given it measures at 30mm in a similar way.

1. HK-491 Silver, reeded edge. Oval, 35mm x 30mm.

Zoins

Here's another reason this is odd in H&K. Not only do the qualifications say 33mm, some pieces are excluded with 32mm being mentioned as the reason, but it clearly cannot be the reason given that over 30 pieces measuring 32mm are included with explicit mention of the 32mm diameter.

• Reference: https://www.so-calleddollars.com/Events/German_American_Bicentennial.html

GERMAN-AMERICAN BICENTENNIAL
1883
PHILADELPHIA, PA
Germantown, settled by emigrants from "Fatherland" and once separate municipality, later became part of Philadelphia. This was one of two Official Medals designed and issued by Celebration Committee; struck by William H. Warner & Bro., Philadelphia. Obverse of other piece was somewhat similar to this reverse but medal struck in pewter, 32mm, which latter precludes listing here. Issue below was quite limited in both metals.

Pioneer1

It is inconsistent. I think the original So-Called Dollar H&K book must have started as a book about silver/gold dollar sized medals from Expositions and Fairs... but then it became clear many US mint-made pieces at the expos and fairs were 32mm in size (half-dollar sized) and had to be included. One could argue that including them was clever ... in that it generated controversy that exists to this day ... but as you point out, others were excluded.

I think talking about exposition/fair medals along the lines of large silver dollar sized (like 38mm Morgan $s) and small gold dollars sized (12-15 mm range $1 gold) pieces makes sense. One could even talk about quarter-eagle sized gold pieces (18-20mm range) for expositions and fairs, but there are only a few of those.

Here is HK-1030... a gold 19 mm medal... in the H&K book, but too big to be a small gold $1 sized (12-15mm) piece. I like it but it was not included in Jeff & Bill's West-Coast Exposition Book because it was a $2.5-sized gold piece.... yet it is similar in size to the PPIE $2.5 commemorative piece from the exposition

HK-1030:

PPIE Quarter-Eagle $2.5 Commemorative:

The HK-1030 piece is apparently rare. The Burnie book says that only 3 specimens were known.

but the H&K book states that the piece was issued by Thomas Elder and produced by jeweler H. Kroll of New York City based on stylistic analysis and comparison of the original dies by CA gold expert Mike Locke. Two of the three specimens sold in 2017-2018.

So... medals outside the $1 SCD gold/silver sizes are just as collectable.

Zoins

@Pioneer1 said:
It is inconsistent. I think the original So-Called Dollar H&K book must have started as a book about silver/gold dollar sized medals from Expositions and Fairs... but then it became clear many US mint-made pieces at the expos and fairs were 32mm in size (half-dollar sized) and had to be included. One could argue that including them was clever ... in that it generated controversy that exists to this day ... but as you point out, others were excluded.

I'm guessing it was clever in that it helped sell more books in 1962, which I think was their primary goal. I don't think they intended to create the controversy we have today.

Regarding the US Mint vs. privately struck medals, is something like HK-469 a US Mint medal?

I think talking about exposition/fair medals along the lines of large silver dollar sized (like 38mm Morgan $s) and small gold dollars sized (12-15 mm range $1 gold) pieces makes sense. One could even talk about quarter-eagle sized gold pieces (18-20mm range) for expositions and fairs, but there are only a few of those.

It also seems like they gave a pass to the Lesher Dollars but they state a price of $1.00 or $1.25 on them. Perhaps a denomination is an exception to the size rule too?

Perhaps So-Called Dollars means anything similar to dollar or more? This would be inline with the Lesher Dollars and the So-Called Slugs.

Here is HK-1030... a gold 19 mm medal... in the H&K book, but too big to be a small gold $1 sized (12-15mm) piece. I like it but it was not included in Jeff & Bill's West-Coast Exposition Book because it was a $2.5-sized gold piece.... yet it is similar in size to the PPIE $2.5 commemorative piece from the exposition

HK-1030:

PPIE Quarter-Eagle $2.5 Commemorative:

The HK-1030 piece is apparently rare. The Burnie book says that only 3 specimens were known.

but the H&K book states that the piece was issued by Thomas Elder and produced by jeweler H. Kroll of New York City based on stylistic analysis and comparison of the original dies by CA gold expert Mike Locke. Two of the three specimens sold in 2017-2018.

So... medals outside the $1 SCD gold/silver sizes are just as collectable.

That's a great piece Bob! HK-1030 is one of my favorites. Jeff is very specific on what he will and won't include. I haven't spent too much time thinking about all these other gold-coin sized pieces. One could argue, that this is an issue that stems from the name "So-Called Dollar" that Elder used and Kenney and H&K gravitated towards.

Since Jeff and Bill are not including HK-1030, potentially due to apparent size mismatch, this would seem to not be in the interests of pure profit, and I wonder if changes @keets perspective of the Shevlin-Hyder references any?

keets

I wonder if changes @keets perspective of the Shevlin-Hyder references any.

no it doesn't and since it qualifies by size it should be included without question. when you write a book, though, you can make whatever rules you want to.

Zoins

@keets said:
I wonder if changes @keets perspective of the Shevlin-Hyder references any.

no it doesn't and since it qualifies by size it should be included without question. when you write a book, though, you can make whatever rules you want to.

How does HK-1030 qualify by size at 19mm?

keets

from SC$'s online.

Obv. Relief map of North, Central and South America; above, l., Panama Canal; above, r., U. S. of America; beaded border.
Rev. San / Francisco / 1915; outside around Panama Pacific Internat. Exp.; beaded border.

HK-1030 Gold. Proof. 13mm

Zoins

@keets said:
from SC$'s online.

Obv. Relief map of North, Central and South America; above, l., Panama Canal; above, r., U. S. of America; beaded border.
Rev. San / Francisco / 1915; outside around Panama Pacific Internat. Exp.; beaded border.

HK-1030 Gold. Proof. 13mm

That's very interesting.

Not only does @pioneer1 indicate HK-1030 is 19mm above, so does Heritage here:

Heritage wrote:
1915 Panama-Pacific Exposition Thomas Elder Gold Dollar MS64 NGC. HK-1030. 19 mm, plain edge. Although unlisted by DeLorey, the second edition of Hibler-Kappen ascribes this variety to early 20th century numismatic auctioneer Thomas Elder. Research by Western souvenir gold expert Mike Locke indicates that New York City jeweler H. Kroll struck the issue for Elder. The variety is very rare: Burnie (1955) knew of three pieces; Art Kagin later estimated 5 to 6 survivors. None have appeared in a Heritage auction since lot 6609 in our 2000 Central States Signature. This is a well struck and lovely apricot-gold example. (Est. $2,500-$3,500).

https://coins.ha.com/itm/so-called-dollars/tokens-and-medals/1915-panama-pacific-exposition-thomas-elder-gold-dollar-ms64-ngc-hk-1030/a/1252-4238.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

Here's the photo from @pioneer1 again with a caption on size:

keets

all the more reason for my practice of "lobbying" NGC and PCGS to put relevant information on inserts with Exonumia, such trivial details as weight and diameter are helpful and in some cases necessary. they continue to ignore me so we end up, well, here.

keets

1st edition HK states size 12 which equates to just shy of 19mm.

Zoins

@keets said:
1st edition HK states size 12 which equates to just shy of 19mm.

Good info. Looks like an interesting situation.

If anyone has one, it would be good to measure. Absent that, a ratio could likely be done with the slab photo on Heritage.

tokenpro

The piece is 19mm. Richard M. (long time friend who was with Heritage at that time) asked me to review the piece when it came in for possible consignment. It seems like it was several years before it actually came up for auction (ithe auction piece appeared to be the same piece I had inspected).

Can we just agree that the concept and scope of so-called "So-Called Dollars" was poorly conceived by Kenney, Hibler, Kappen, et al) and was compounded in execution with errors, commissions, omissions and random selectivity? Trying to extend the definitions to So-Called Half Dollars and especially quirks such as So-Called Dimes (don't the So-Called Dimes also qualify as So-Called Dollars?) continues to stretch the idea of sets based on (inflated) size to the point where everything is a So-Called something and in many cases multiple So-Called somethings?

There are a number of great medals and especially great sub-sets listed in H&K but the basic concept of size (33 to 45mm! plus gold dollar size) being the tie that binds quickly descends into a slip knot (IMHO).

keets

Can we just agree that the concept and scope of so-called "So-Called Dollars" was poorly conceived by Kenney, Hibler, Kappen, et al) and was compounded in execution with errors, commissions, omissions and random selectivity?

I don't think it was poorly conceived but I do believe errors were unintentionally made. if you think about it, the entire task was a Herculean effort with not much to start with. what I do believe is what you stated, adding all the other BS "So-Called" this and that only makes something that needs to be fixed more wrong than it already is. I haven't really taken a deep dive into the incorrect size dilemma, but it could be that some medals were Exposition/Fair medals and so, included. I would challenge anyone to try to do what Hibler-Kappen did without making mistakes that are later nit-picked apart.

probably the best thing to do is eliminate items which should not be included, stuff like HK-8 and HK-8a. wrong size items are probably best left alone. adding more listings, I have stated my position on that and noone seems to agree so I see no point in repeating it here.

Pioneer1

@keets said:
probably the best thing to do is eliminate items which should not be included, stuff like HK-8 and HK-8a. wrong size items are probably best left alone. adding more listings, I have stated my position on that and no one seems to agree so I see no point in repeating it here.

I agree with this @keets . The counter examples in the original HK book should allow collectors to understand that many expositions had medals of all sorts of sizes, and there are parallels to the sizes of US coinage.

My interest in this entire SCD series is (i) the US Mint and American coinage connections, (ii) learning about the designs, engravers and die-sinkers, (iii) learning about the history/events and why the expositions were held, and (iv) having fun discovering and collecting new die varieties and medal compositions. The best part is meeting people and having interesting discussions, in person or online.

Zoins

@keets said:
Can we just agree that the concept and scope of so-called "So-Called Dollars" was poorly conceived by Kenney, Hibler, Kappen, et al) and was compounded in execution with errors, commissions, omissions and random selectivity?

I don't think it was poorly conceived but I do believe errors were unintentionally made. if you think about it, the entire task was a Herculean effort with not much to start with. what I do believe is what you stated, adding all the other BS "So-Called" this and that only makes something that needs to be fixed more wrong than it already is. I haven't really taken a deep dive into the incorrect size dilemma, but it could be that some medals were Exposition/Fair medals and so, included. I would challenge anyone to try to do what Hibler-Kappen did without making mistakes that are later nit-picked apart.

probably the best thing to do is eliminate items which should not be included, stuff like HK-8 and HK-8a. wrong size items are probably best left alone. adding more listings, I have stated my position on that and noone seems to agree so I see no point in repeating it here.

The interesting thing about allowing existing 32mm pieces as SCDs but not new ones is what to do with other 32mm exposition pieces.

I’m currently thinking of creating a So-Called Half Dollars reference covering exposition pieces up to 32mm. I’ll probably include all the non-denominated 32mm HK pieces and HK-491 to start, to show these half dollar sized pieces have a long established following.

Of course, the other 32mm exposition pieces may not matter if they are considered BS

Pioneer1

@Zoins said:

@keets said:

Of course, the other 32mm exposition pieces may not matter if they are considered BS

There are many beautiful 32 mm exposition medals, and some of them are from important Southern expositions such as the 1884 North Carolina Exposition held in October 1884. That exposition had 32-33 mm medals, and some planchets are close to 33 mm. I don't need to forgive @Keets for his "BS" comment... he's actually correct in that there are a lot of 32 mm medals that may not be artistically important or associated with an exposition or important national event, so bothering to study them is really up to the collector. There are lost of "BS" 33-45 mm medals too.

Here are a few 32-33mm NC pieces I love....

keets

don't hammer me too hard for the BS comment, sometimes I'm just harsh and inarticulate. the main thrust of that comment was that it would only serve to further confuse something that is hard to fix. the 32mm medals included may have been included, at least in some cases, because they were actually the official medal(s) of a major Exhibition. that leads me to believe that since the authors were more in touch with these events they may have been forced to make decisions of inclusion/exclusion based on the relevance of the events.

like I posted earlier, when you write the book you get to make the rules. my instinct is to not change anything and to collect around the mistakes I perceive in the catalogue.

Pioneer1

Well, if we are going to be talking about 1/2 SCDs, then it's time to post 1/2 pinch pieces. My personal 1/2 pinch-sized (0.410 inch = 10.4 mm ) favorite is the 10.5 mm 1882 Denver Mine Souvenir Gold Medal related to the 1882 National Mining and Industrial Exposition. This gold piece is 0.31 grams of gold, 10.5mm in size. This exposition has a nice silver dollar sized SCD:

http://www.so-calleddollar.com/category/1882-national-mining-and-industrial-exposition/

Planning began at the end of 1880 with a proposal for a permanent mining exposition grounds that would become a grand museum. The Director of the Denver Mint agreed to accept the position of Acting President to raise the stature of the endeavor.

Tiny 1882 gold piece that is so cool... @keets it seems NGC listened to you and put numbers on the holder...

Zoins

This 32mm "Prosperity Coin" is a nice So-Called Half Dollar from the 1933 Century of Progress Expo in Chicago.

There are 3 HK numbers assigned for other 32mm Century of Progress pieces already, but not for this one yet.

Zoins

1901 Chile at the Pan-American Expo Souvenir - HK-Unlisted

Here's another candidate from the 1901 Pan-Am Expo.

This one says "Souvenir" which is nice.

Source: nvliquidators

dcarr

@Pioneer1 said:
Well, if we are going to be talking about 1/2 SCDs, then it's time to post 1/2 pinch pieces. My personal 1/2 pinch-sized (0.410 inch = 10.4 mm ) favorite is the 10.5 mm 1882 Denver Mine Souvenir Gold Medal related to the 1882 National Mining and Industrial Exposition. This gold piece is 0.31 grams of gold, 10.5mm in size. This exposition has a nice silver dollar sized SCD:

http://www.so-calleddollar.com/category/1882-national-mining-and-industrial-exposition/

Planning began at the end of 1880 with a proposal for a permanent mining exposition grounds that would become a grand museum. The Director of the Denver Mint agreed to accept the position of Acting President to raise the stature of the endeavor.

Tiny 1882 gold piece that is so cool... @keets it seems NGC listened to you and put numbers on the holder...

I had one of those tested and it showed solid 10K gold.
There is also a version dated "1883" in addition to the 1882 issue.

WDP

I don't recall if I or someone has posted this flyer in the past. This document appears to have been created for the proposed "SO-CALLED DOLLARS: Guide Book and Standard Catalog." This was copyrighted 1961 by Harold E. Hibler so likely he wrote theis document.

This document is courtesy of Mrs. Alfred J. Ostheimer III (Jacque) who gave it to me around twenty-one years ago. She had received this document from Hibler and corresponded with him in the years before the first edition of the book was published. I have much or all (?) of her correspondence with Hibler.

The Ostheimers had over 900 H&K numbers in their collection and had many plate coins in both the first and second editions of the book. Some of these likely remain Unique.

Have fun!

W. David Perkins

---

WDP

Cover page of Ostheimer copy of the Kenny's "So-called Dollars."

---

Jzyskowski1

Dang. No and No. Pretty sure they spent a little too much time thinking this through. 👍🏼
My question was how many people are involved with this narrow field but stopped when I remembered how diverse the hobby is. 😉

Zoins

@WDP said:
Cover page of Ostheimer copy of the Kenny's "So-called Dollars."

---

Wow, I just noticed that Wayne Raymond is the publisher! That's cool!

Zoins

@WDP said:
I don't recall if I or someone has posted this flyer in the past. This document appears to have been created for the proposed "SO-CALLED DOLLARS: Guide Book and Standard Catalog." This was copyrighted 1961 by Harold E. Hibler so likely he wrote theis document.

This document is courtesy of Mrs. Alfred J. Ostheimer III (Jacque) who gave it to me around twenty-one years ago. She had received this document from Hibler and corresponded with him in the years before the first edition of the book was published. I have much or all (?) of her correspondence with Hibler.

The Ostheimers had over 900 H&K numbers in their collection and had many plate coins in both the first and second editions of the book. Some of these likely remain Unique.

Have fun!

W. David Perkins

---

I haven't seen this before.

The addresses are cool.

This is the first time I knew Harold went by "Hal" and lived in Massachusetts. Any know what Hal's day job was?

I'm not sure what "38" and "28" mean after "Cambridge" and "San Jose" either. Seems like some old part of our postal address system?

San Jose State University has a great page on Charles Vaughan Kappen here:

https://scholarworks.sjsu.edu/erfa_bios/164/

WillieBoyd2

The numbers after the city names are postal "zones", a predecessor to ZIP Codes.

Type2

So I have a question what makes it a so called dollar. Is it because they gave it a HK number? Or had it registered with a HK number?

tokenpro

If you think So-Called Dollars have always been popular you would be mistaken. While they were very popular during the 1960's after H&K came out (many popped up weekly in Coin World ads), by the mid-1970's they were a dreg on the market (with some exceptions, of course). Dick Johnson & Chris Jensen were trying to popularize medal collecting again through their auction firm Johnson & Jensen. As part of this campaign they had a chance to purchase all the remaining copies of H&K & one other catalog (Neil McNeil's work on Inaugural Medals) from The Coin & Currency Institute which they did.

Dick Johnson never told me what they paid but you might say that sales lagged. After a while they essentially gave up and offered the H&K catalogs at $3@ in groups of 10 (postpaid IIRC) with larger discounts available I think I ordered 40 or 50 copies which lasted through the 1990's even with many donations to club & show raffles, etc. Every other exonumia dealer in the country (and there were many more of us back then) also had purchased quantities so it was a race to the bottom selling them, very remindful of the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics transportation token sets.

It has taken an awful lot of promotion to raise the profile of SCD's over time and then even more promotion to keep it up. The advent of TPG for So-Calleds and convincing the current collectors that there is a significant $ difference between a MS-64 and MS-65 Type II North American Aviation $ has kept things going but we all know that every area of collecting cycles to a greater or lesser extent. The one certainty is that things change so we will see what the future of SCDs holds.

JRay123

I am owner of the socalleddollar.com website with all of the unlisted pieces-www.socalleddollar.com. So called dollars are an inexact concept. An analogy might be a dart board, with the truest so called dollars near the center, others out farther from the center. No one is ever going to completely agree on which pieces fall where.

As far as size goes, I remember years ago when I was just beginning to collect so called dollars, I had also started a collection of silver world half dollar coins. While going through a dealers inventory at a show I remember him looking at me and saying "well you're an odd one". When I asked him why he said that most everyone wanted the larger crown size pieces, not the smaller half dollar size coins. But I also remember going to a large token and medal show in Salt Lake City in the early 1990s and overhearing a couple of dealers say that they were going to put together a so called half dollar book. Obviously nothing came of it.

Anyway, I think overall that the original authors of HK made some decent decisions. If you study the book you see that they really did put a lot of thought into it. And yes, to me some of their decisions seem strange. Also some of their decisions are not obvious, and their introduction does not explain all their decisions. They also did not have access to all of the information and image technology that we have today. One thing that many collectors may not fully grasp is how it is sometimes difficult to decide what to include or not to include. It is easy to say that there are perhaps twice or three times as many so called dollars as there are listed in HK, but actually trying to list them, well, the devil is in the details, so to speak. And the thing of it is, as a cataloger you have to TRY AND SET RULES. If you don’t, things can get pretty crazy and confused really fast. And occasionally I guess you just throw up your arms and say “hey it’s my publication, I don’t need to explain myself”. The nice thing about being a collector is that you do not have to follow rules, however the collecting community often seems fixated on the written word, especially when the grading services use references to categorize groups, but what choice do they have?

As far as the 32mm size goes there are a small number of 32mm pieces that were put into the second edition because of their similarity in design to pieces in the first edition (HK469a and HK474a for example), which may or may not have not been a good decision. One place where the original authors goofed with size is HK364. It has the same reverse as HK353, and is exactly the same size. There is also an unlisted piece with the Obverse of HK353 and the same reverse as HK364, also the same size as HK353. They are both most likely US mint, like HK353. HK353 through HK356 are under sized, measuring in at just over 32mm. I tend to be pretty strict about smaller size medals. If it is under 32.5mm, it is out. Even those 32.5 to 33 mm are a bit iffy to me. But you can understand why the authors put in HK353 through HK356. They were made by the US mint and were the official medals of a major worlds fair. US mint so called dollars made on the fair grounds are one of the main central concepts of so called dollars. If you look at Rulau’s amazingly thick book of “United States Tokens 1700-1900, you see that he also made some decisions. The book is full of “good for/trade” token dies and “store card” dies, but somewhat lacking in “commemorative/souvenir” dies that are the centerpiece of so called dollars. Commemorative/souvenir dies are present in the book, but usually only when combined with a store card die. As a cataloger you HAVE to make decisions. Maybe I am being a bit presumptuous, but I think what Hibler and Kappan did was to decide on their rules, but then occasionally teased their own rules, essentially saying, “hey relax, our rules are merely guidelines, this is not an exact science”.

Zoins

@JRay123 said:
I am owner of the socalleddollar.com website with all of the unlisted pieces-www.socalleddollar.com. So called dollars are an inexact concept. An analogy might be a dart board, with the truest so called dollars near the center, others out farther from the center. No one is ever going to completely agree on which pieces fall where.

Thanks for posting! I love your website and have used it many times!

As far as size goes, I remember years ago when I was just beginning to collect so called dollars, I had also started a collection of silver world half dollar coins. While going through a dealers inventory at a show I remember him looking at me and saying "well you're an odd one". When I asked him why he said that most everyone wanted the larger crown size pieces, not the smaller half dollar size coins. But I also remember going to a large token and medal show in Salt Lake City in the early 1990s and overhearing a couple of dealers say that they were going to put together a so called half dollar book. Obviously nothing came of it.

Do you recall who said they wanted to create the So-Called Half Dollar book?

I'd love to make one happen

Anyway, I think overall that the original authors of HK made some decent decisions. If you study the book you see that they really did put a lot of thought into it. And yes, to me some of their decisions seem strange. Also some of their decisions are not obvious, and their introduction does not explain all their decisions. They also did not have access to all of the information and image technology that we have today. One thing that many collectors may not fully grasp is how it is sometimes difficult to decide what to include or not to include. It is easy to say that there are perhaps twice or three times as many so called dollars as there are listed in HK, but actually trying to list them, well, the devil is in the details, so to speak. And the thing of it is, as a cataloger you have to TRY AND SET RULES. If you don’t, things can get pretty crazy and confused really fast. And occasionally I guess you just throw up your arms and say “hey it’s my publication, I don’t need to explain myself”. The nice thing about being a collector is that you do not have to follow rules, however the collecting community often seems fixated on the written word, especially when the grading services use references to categorize groups, but what choice do they have?

Overall I think Hilber, Kappen, Hoffman, @jonathanb and others and did a great job! Clearly so as there is interest now.

As far as the 32mm size goes there are a small number of 32mm pieces that were put into the second edition because of their similarity in design to pieces in the first edition (HK469a and HK474a for example), which may or may not have not been a good decision. One place where the original authors goofed with size is HK364. It has the same reverse as HK353, and is exactly the same size. There is also an unlisted piece with the Obverse of HK353 and the same reverse as HK364, also the same size as HK353. They are both most likely US mint, like HK353. HK353 through HK356 are under sized, measuring in at just over 32mm. I tend to be pretty strict about smaller size medals. If it is under 32.5mm, it is out. Even those 32.5 to 33 mm are a bit iffy to me. But you can understand why the authors put in HK353 through HK356. They were made by the US mint and were the official medals of a major worlds fair. US mint so called dollars made on the fair grounds are one of the main central concepts of so called dollars.

Good point on the official Alaska Yukon Pacific Exposition medals. I think if Hibler and Kappen had a So-Called Half Dollar book, they would have included these pieces in that book, but since they didn't, they made a decision to make an exception. That being said, if HK-353 to HK-356 are not mistakes, then I do not consider HK-364 to be one either as they share dies.

Overall, I think the AYPE medals, as official US Mint medals, would be great foundational pieces for a So-Called Half Dollar catalog.

If you look at Rulau’s amazingly thick book of “United States Tokens 1700-1900, you see that he also made some decisions. The book is full of “good for/trade” token dies and “store card” dies, but somewhat lacking in “commemorative/souvenir” dies that are the centerpiece of so called dollars. Commemorative/souvenir dies are present in the book, but usually only when combined with a store card die. As a cataloger you HAVE to make decisions. Maybe I am being a bit presumptuous, but I think what Hibler and Kappan did was to decide on their rules, but then occasionally teased their own rules, essentially saying, “hey relax, our rules are merely guidelines, this is not an exact science”.

I believe they occasionally broke their rules too. But 60 years later, I think it's good to either (a) reduce rule breakage by unlisting pieces or (b) formally extend the rules so there don't need to be as many exceptions.

JRay123

Reply to Zions
Thanks for your comments. As far as a so called dollar half book goes, I certainly won’t be the one doing it. It would probably have to be some sort of group effort. Someone would have to decide on the lower end size, or even the upper mm size. Maybe 30 to 33mm for nice round whole numbers. There are a lot of medals that fall into that range. It would help with the 32.5 to 33mm problem. I do not remember who those dealers at the show were in Salt lake City.

I did not mention the second edition. The updated second edition was a good effort that certainly did help to create more interest. Jeff Shevlin and Bill Hyder did a great job with their west coast expo book. More to follow.

There are different attitudes about what to include. The nice thing about a website is that it is flexible and can be modified. The nice thing about a book is that it tends to finalize things. Both help to create order out of chaos.

One of the neat things for me about so called dollars is all the diversity, and there are always new discoveries. Mentioning HK353 again, one of the strangest discoveries was a reverse US mint die of HK353 that Jeff Shevlin and Bill Hyder came across that was larger!!(and of so called dollar size). They showed it to me. With Daniel Carr’s press, they used it to make some modern strikes. I guess they really cannot be called re-strikes because it appears that the die was never used. Very strange! And was there ever a matching obverse die?

Zoins

@JRay123 said:
Reply to Zions
Thanks for your comments. As far as a so called dollar half book goes, I certainly won’t be the one doing it. It would probably have to be some sort of group effort. Someone would have to decide on the lower end size, or even the upper mm size. Maybe 30 to 33mm for nice round whole numbers. There are a lot of medals that fall into that range. It would help with the 32.5 to 33mm problem. I do not remember who those dealers at the show were in Salt lake City.

I agree it would need to be a collaborative effort. I have an idea to make this happen but need some time to make it happen.

I did not mention the second edition. The updated second edition was a good effort that certainly did help to create more interest. Jeff Shevlin and Bill Hyder did a great job with their west coast expo book. More to follow.

More books are nice and like what Jeff and Bill do with the So-Called Dollar Fellowship Gathering to get people together.

There are different attitudes about what to include. The nice thing about a website is that it is flexible and can be modified. The nice thing about a book is that it tends to finalize things. Both help to create order out of chaos.

Very perspective. I agree with both points.

One of the neat things for me about so called dollars is all the diversity, and there are always new discoveries. Mentioning HK353 again, one of the strangest discoveries was a reverse US mint die of HK353 that Jeff Shevlin and Bill Hyder came across that was larger!!(and of so called dollar size). They showed it to me. With Daniel Carr’s press, they used it to make some modern strikes. I guess they really cannot be called re-strikes because it appears that the die was never used. Very strange! And was there ever a matching obverse die?

That was a very interesting die and issue.

I wrote a thread about this here:

New So-Called Dollar Variety Discovery! Alaska-Yukon Pacific Exposition

ZoidMeister

HK-667
CATSKILL AQUEDUCT COMPLETION
1917
NEW YORK CITY, NY

Italicized text courtesy of So-Called Dollars website.

This Medal is smaller replica of three-inch Official Medal; latter authorized by Medal subcommittee of Mayor's Catskill Aqueduct Celebration Committee; issued by American Numismatic Society; designed and modeled by Daniel Chester French, sculptor. Official Medal was subscription issue, not struck but cast, limited to 12 Silver and 57 Bronze pieces. Society "had no association" with striking of these replicas by Medallic Art Co.; issuer and number struck not known.
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.

.

I have been watching for a nice Catskill Aqueduct HK-667 medal for a couple of years now.

For as rare as the 3" medal appears to be from its production numbers above, I've seen two or three examples of the bronze medal come up for sale over the past couple of years vs. this one single example of the HK-667.

Unknown mintage? My thoughts are that even if 1,000 of these were produced, their survival rate must be but a fraction of the larger medals. Small enough to pocket carry, they're small enough to loose.

Not being monetized or made of a commodity metal, were many of these relegated to "junk drawers" and cleaned out / donated / thrown away upon the original owners passing?

Having been made at the onset of WWI, could many of these have made their way into the various metal drives conducted for the war effort or the following drives held for WWII?

This was the first one I have seen offered for sale. Its condition is magnificent. The price seemed reasonable. I just had to have it.

Z

Zoins

@ZoidMeister said:
HK-667
CATSKILL AQUEDUCT COMPLETION
1917
NEW YORK CITY, NY

Italicized text courtesy of So-Called Dollars website.

This Medal is smaller replica of three-inch Official Medal; latter authorized by Medal subcommittee of Mayor's Catskill Aqueduct Celebration Committee; issued by American Numismatic Society; designed and modeled by Daniel Chester French, sculptor. Official Medal was subscription issue, not struck but cast, limited to 12 Silver and 57 Bronze pieces. Society "had no association" with striking of these replicas by Medallic Art Co.; issuer and number struck not known.

Very nice piece, but this can fit into a standard So-Called Dollar thread as it is 38mm

So-CalledDollars.com has some more interesting info on this. it would be interesting to see this design on MACO branded work.

https://www.so-calleddollars.com/Events/Catskill_Aqueduct_Completion.html

In 1933, president of the Medallic Art Co., Clyde Curlee Trees, choose the obverse of this medal as firm's logo and included it on stationery, in advertising and even on nameplates attached to plaques. Firm retained the logo throughout the years and it is still in use by successor company Medallic Art & Mint.

Zoins

@Zoins said:
Here's another reason this is odd in H&K. Not only do the qualifications say 33mm, some pieces are excluded with 32mm being mentioned as the reason, but it clearly cannot be the reason given that over 30 pieces measuring 32mm are included with explicit mention of the 32mm diameter.

• Reference: https://www.so-calleddollars.com/Events/German_American_Bicentennial.html

GERMAN-AMERICAN BICENTENNIAL
1883
PHILADELPHIA, PA
Germantown, settled by emigrants from "Fatherland" and once separate municipality, later became part of Philadelphia. This was one of two Official Medals designed and issued by Celebration Committee; struck by William H. Warner & Bro., Philadelphia. Obverse of other piece was somewhat similar to this reverse but medal struck in pewter, 32mm, which latter precludes listing here. Issue below was quite limited in both metals.

Here are my two 32mm official medals from the 1883 German American Bicentennial along with my 35mm HK-597 in silver. I've never seen HK-596 in silver but I would love to have one! I wonder if the SCHD comes in silver as well.

I also have this one which would be a gold-dollar sized So-Called Dollar if I can find an unholed specimen.

pcgscacgold

@Zoins That piece has some history as it appears to have been worn around someone's neck. Is it gold? That would explain the rounding around the hole as gold is soft.

Zoins

@pcgscacgold said:
@Zoins That piece has some history as it appears to have been worn around someone's neck. Is it gold? That would explain the rounding around the hole as gold is soft.

Wearing it around one's neck would certainly be one reason to have it holed. At the time many people wore medals of this size on stick pins or had these tied to silk ribbons so either one of those would be my first guess.

This is in brass, but it could have been struck using gold dollar die blanks and collars.

Here's an example from the 1901 Pan-Am Expo posted by Bill on CoinPeople.com:

https://www.coinpeople.com/topic/20911-lords-prayer-tokens/page/2/#comment-606234

pcgscacgold

Yup, that would do it and neat way to wear it at a show.

@Zoins said:

@pcgscacgold said:
@Zoins That piece has some history as it appears to have been worn around someone's neck. Is it gold? That would explain the rounding around the hole as gold is soft.

Wearing it around one's neck would certainly be one reason to have it holed. At the time many people wore medals of this size on stick pins or had these tied to silk ribbons so either one of those would be my first guess.

This is in brass, but it could have been struck using gold dollar die blanks and collars.

Here's an example from the 1901 Pan-Am Expo posted by Bill on CoinPeople.com:

https://www.coinpeople.com/topic/20911-lords-prayer-tokens/page/2/#comment-606234

ZoidMeister

@Zoins said:

@ZoidMeister said:
HK-667
CATSKILL AQUEDUCT COMPLETION
1917
NEW YORK CITY, NY

Italicized text courtesy of So-Called Dollars website.

This Medal is smaller replica of three-inch Official Medal; latter authorized by Medal subcommittee of Mayor's Catskill Aqueduct Celebration Committee; issued by American Numismatic Society; designed and modeled by Daniel Chester French, sculptor. Official Medal was subscription issue, not struck but cast, limited to 12 Silver and 57 Bronze pieces. Society "had no association" with striking of these replicas by Medallic Art Co.; issuer and number struck not known.

Very nice piece, but this can fit into a standard So-Called Dollar thread as it is 38mm

So-CalledDollars.com has some more interesting info on this. it would be interesting to see this design on MACO branded work.

https://www.so-calleddollars.com/Events/Catskill_Aqueduct_Completion.html

In 1933, president of the Medallic Art Co., Clyde Curlee Trees, choose the obverse of this medal as firm's logo and included it on stationery, in advertising and even on nameplates attached to plaques. Firm retained the logo throughout the years and it is still in use by successor company Medallic Art & Mint.

.

Yeah, I posted on the fly. I missed the "half" in the title.

Been Uber busy lately and only have time for "hit and run" posting.

Z

Zoins

@ZoidMeister said:

@Zoins said:

@ZoidMeister said:
HK-667
CATSKILL AQUEDUCT COMPLETION
1917
NEW YORK CITY, NY

Italicized text courtesy of So-Called Dollars website.

This Medal is smaller replica of three-inch Official Medal; latter authorized by Medal subcommittee of Mayor's Catskill Aqueduct Celebration Committee; issued by American Numismatic Society; designed and modeled by Daniel Chester French, sculptor. Official Medal was subscription issue, not struck but cast, limited to 12 Silver and 57 Bronze pieces. Society "had no association" with striking of these replicas by Medallic Art Co.; issuer and number struck not known.

Very nice piece, but this can fit into a standard So-Called Dollar thread as it is 38mm

So-CalledDollars.com has some more interesting info on this. it would be interesting to see this design on MACO branded work.

https://www.so-calleddollars.com/Events/Catskill_Aqueduct_Completion.html

In 1933, president of the Medallic Art Co., Clyde Curlee Trees, choose the obverse of this medal as firm's logo and included it on stationery, in advertising and even on nameplates attached to plaques. Firm retained the logo throughout the years and it is still in use by successor company Medallic Art & Mint.

Yeah, I posted on the fly. I missed the "half" in the title.

Been Uber busy lately and only have time for "hit and run" posting.

Z

No worries! Nothing wrong with being excited about a newp!

I thought you found a new variety at first!

1patwick

@Zoins said:
To further the ongoing discussions with others on the size qualifications of So-Called Dollars, I decided to take a survey of how many undersized So-Called Dollars are listed in the So-Called Dollar reference by Harold E. Hibler and Charles Vaughan Kappen.

H&K says that all pieces should be 33mm to 45mm (except Bryan Dollars which can be larger), but it actually includes over 30 HK numbers assigned to 32mm pieces, so it's not an accident. The HK numbers are listed below.

From a consistency perspective, it seems like the two options are:

1. Keep the definition and delist the pieces as So-Called Dollars. They can be called So-Called Half Dollars.
2. Keep the pieces and change the definition to include 32mm.

From a consistency perspective, either of these two approaches seems preferable to the current state of having some 32mm pieces included and others excluded.

Here's my 32mm HK-364 which is likely a US Mint piece:

1909 Alaska Yukon Pacific Expo US Building Dollar
Catalog: HK-364
Pedigree: Howard Hornreich

The following are copy and pasted from https://so-calleddollars.com/

1. HK-353 Silver. 32mm.
2. HK-354 Bronze.
3. HK-355 Copper.
4. HK-356 Gilt.
5. HK-356a Silver-plated Bronze. 32mm.
6. HK-728a Bronze. Smaller barrel and text on barrel. 32mm.
7. HK-917 Copper, plain edge. 32mm.
8. HK-469 Gilt. 32mm.
9. HK-469a Gilt. 32mm.
10. HK-474a Gilt. 32mm.
11. HK-787 Silver. Numbers engraved, not punched. Total struck, 101. Zerbe 1.
12. HK-788 Silver. Scrolls at sides of State Seal; line above Colo. Approximately 210 struck. Zerbe
13. HK-788a Same without number on obverse.
    HK-789 Silver. Approximately 500 struck. Zerbe
14. HK-789a Same without number on obverse.
    HK-790 Silver. Approximately 10 pieces, die trials, were struck and bank punch was discarded. Zerbe
15. HK-790a Same without number on obverse.
16. HK-791 Silver. Zerbe
17. HK-791a Same without number on obverse.
18. HK-792 Same, but stamped J. M. Slusher / Cripple Creek, Colo. Approximately 260 stamped. Zerbe 6
19. HK-793 Same, but stamped Sam Cohen / Victor, Colo. Approximately 50 stamped. Zerbe 7.
20. HK-794 Same, but stamped D. W. Klein & Co. / Pueblo, Colo. Approximately 100 stamped. Dr. Whiteley reports knowledge of an additional hoard of 17. Zerbe 8.
21. HK-795 Same, but stamped Geo. Mullen / Victor, Colo. Approximately 100 stamped. Zerbe 9.
22. HK-795a Same without number on obverse.
23. HK-796 Same, but stamped Boyd Park / Denver, Colo. Approximately 150 stamped. Zerbe 10.
24. HK-796a Same without number on obverse.
25. HK-797 Same, but stamped W. C. Alexander / Jeweler / Salida, Colo. Second A in Salida is inverted V. Approximately 50 stamped Zerbe 11.
26. HK-1016 Silver. 35mm. Reported by Dr. Philip W. Whiteley. Zerbe 17.
27. HK-1017 Same, but stamped Goodspeeds & Co. / 26 Pikes Peak Ave. Name engraved and serial number punched. Approximately 15 stamped. Zerbe 12.
28. HK-1018 Same, but stamped J. E. Nelson & Co. / Holdrege, Neb. Presented to customers during formal opening of the Nelson store. Approximately 50 stamped. Zerbe 13.
29. HK-1019 Same, but stamped W. F. White Merc. Co. / Grand Jct., Colo. Approximately 50 stamped. Zerbe 14.
30. HK-1019a Same without number on obverse.
31. HK-1020 Same, but engraved H. Stein. Zerbe 15.
32. HK-1021 Same, but engraved H. H. Rosser. Zerbe 16.
33. HK-1021a Same, but engraved A.W. Clark / Druggist / Denver, Colo. Zerbe 18.

Hey Zoins, regarding, "> 2. HK-356a Silver-plated Bronze. 32mm.", You omitted HK-356a, bronze.

Zoins

Added HK-917 discussed here:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1091616/hk-917-god-and-freedom-barnhill-restrike#latest