Thanks! It’s a very long scroll down with extensive info.
Some of the info was taken from the Lincoln Cent category in the HA archives😉
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
For me die varieties are not errors.
That said, here's a Tom Mulvaney photograph he gifted me back in 1995 of my absolute favorite die variety.
This is the one Mint State variety I wish I owned even though it really does not fit in my error coinage archive.
This variety I posted is #9 on Zoins list, though I assume the old school film image example I posted is much better than that MS65 listed that exchanged hands for 1/4+ of a Million Dollars way back in 2013.
Errors tend to be unique, whereas die varieties are not.
@LindyS said:
For me die varieties are not errors.
That said, here's a Tom Mulvaney photograph he gifted me back in 1995 of my absolute favorite die variety.
This is the one Mint State variety I wish I owned even though it really does not fit in my error coinage archive.
Let me suggest that we start by discussing the title of the thread. Besides the question of is it limited to U.S. coinage or not, what is an error?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Let me suggest that we start by discussing the title of the thread. Besides the question of is it limited to U.S. coinage or not, what is an error?
Well, it should be limited to U.S. coinage, which should be the default as we are on a US coin forum
As for the definition of what is an error, what's your definition?
@Byers said:
Obviously intentionally struck gold Indian Cents.
If so, why "error" rather than piece de caprice?
Very good question!
We can ask Andy @MrEureka and Saul why these aren't cataloged in Judd. They may have good reasons for not considering these to be piece de caprice. USPatterns.com may provide a hint. Of note, both Saul and Andy are also consultants for Mint Error News so this could be a good discussion!
It's also amazing (or not) that the Virgil Brand specimen was graded VF and Unc, both in 1942. It would be great to be able to identify this specimen today.
USPatterns.com wrote:
The year 1900 was listed by Pollock as P1990 because of the possibility that they were deliberately struck for collectors. The only problem with this is that 1900 is not the only date known.
The following dates are known:
1900 with at least 3 known.
Harmer Rooke 11/69 lot 3206 ?, HIM 11/82 ?, Heritage 93 ANA - AU, 67.12 grains
Col Green, Kreisberg 1/75, Superior Auction 89, B/M 8/91, Byers-Heritage 4/15 - PCGS65, illustrated below, 65.8 grains
reported by Mike Hodder
The earliest known purchase for one of these was the 1900 in the Dewitt Smith collection that was purchased by Virgil Brand in 1908 and entered into the Brand journals as item #46973. The Brand coin was consigned to B.G.Johnson by Armin Brand on 10/8/35 & 1/19/42 where called graded VF. It was called UNC when sent to Stacks on 3/24/42 for $210.
1905 with only one known ex Heritage 1/10 FUN, Byers-Heritage 8/14 (not sold), Heritage 12/14 (not sold), Heritage 1/15 (not sold), Heritage 4/15 (not sold), Heritage 9/15 - PCGS64 64.5 grains
1906 with only one known ex Stacks 6/04, Stacks 9/09, Nick Brown - NGCAU58, 64.4 grains
1907 with the only one known ex Kosoff, Mertes purchased at the 1952 ANA according to Dave Bowers' book "A Buyer's and Enthusiast's Guide to Flying Eagle and Indian Cents.
Photo of the 1906 is courtesy of American Numismatic Rarities and Stacks and the 1900 is courtesy of Mike Byers.
The gold Lincoln cents are also amazing, and mysterious!
USPatterns.com wrote:
Taxay also list the following Lincoln cents in his 1976 Comprehensive Catalog:
1911 which is untraced today.
1915 ex Col Green, B.G. Johnson 1/3/1944 invoice to James Kelly, JV McDermott. This piece is listed in Pollock as P2027.
It’s a fascinating mystery surrounding the gold Indian Head Cents. I had the honor of owning two at the same time. There are different theories as to their origin.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Andy actually brokered the 1900 Indian Head Cent in gold, selling it to me. It was the second time that I owned this one. I am referring to the MS 65 PCGS.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Andy actually brokered the 1900 Indian Head Cent in gold, selling it to me. It was the second time that I owned this one. I am referring to the MS 65 PCGS.
@Byers said:
Obviously intentionally struck gold Indian Cents.
If so, why "error" rather than piece de caprice?
An intentional error is a piece de caprice, but it's still considered an error.
The gold Indians were struck on quarter eagle planchets, so they're categorized as errors, even if they were intentionally struck on the wrong planchets. If they had been struck on cent-sized gold planchets specially created for the purpose, they would be considered "off metal strikes", aka "die trials", and would be considered patterns, at least in the broadest sense of the word.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Thanks! It’s a very long scroll down with extensive info.
Some of the info was taken from the Lincoln Cent category in the HA archives😉
Mike, thank you for providing that list as I was finally able to track down a photo of the 69DD that I found in 1973. The smooshed '9' in the date is the tell. I do not have any surviving photos.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
The first time I owned the 1900 gold IHC was in 1975 thru 1989. Then again in 2005 thru 2015.
The full pedigree is:
Green- decades
Beck - decades
Byers- 1975 thru 1989
Paul Nugget to a customer (brokered)
Andy Lustig from the customer (brokered)
Byers - 2005 thru 2015
New owner
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
The first time I owned the 1900 gold IHC was in 1975 thru 1989. Then again in 2005 thru 2015.
The full pedigree is:
Green- decades
Beck - decades
Byers- 1975 thru 1989
Paul Nugget to a customer (brokered)
Andy Lustig from the customer (brokered)
Byers - 2005 thru 2015
New owner
Very nice Mike! This is a great coin and very nice to see your ownership!
If we could combine your two ownership stints, they would add up to 24 years so we could say "Byers - decades" too!
With that amount of ownership time, it should say "Green, Beck, Byers" on the insert
@CaptHenway said:
Let me suggest that we start by discussing the title of the thread. Besides the question of is it limited to U.S. coinage or not, what is an error?
Well, it should be limited to U.S. coinage, which should be the default as we are on a US coin forum
As for the definition of what is an error, what's your definition?
But coins exist outside this forum, so you should label the thread accordingly.
Attached is a picture of a grey area. Heck, we can't even agree if it is grey or gray. You may use this to define "what is an error."
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Let me suggest that we start by discussing the title of the thread. Besides the question of is it limited to U.S. coinage or not, what is an error?
Well, it should be limited to U.S. coinage, which should be the default as we are on a US coin forum
As for the definition of what is an error, what's your definition?
But coins exist outside this forum, so you should label the thread accordingly.
From the posts, people don't seem to be confused, so it seems like you're concerned about a problem that doesn't exist?
Attached is a picture of a grey area. Heck, we can't even agree if it is grey or gray. You may use this to define "what is an error."
If you don't have a definition, there's nothing to compare
I'm good with the definition posted by @yosclimber as I mentioned above.
@LindyS said:
For me die varieties are not errors.
Good to know and, of course, everyone can have their own definitions.
Here's a definition by John A. Wexler of "Wexler's Die Varieties" where he indicates die varieties are errors for him.
John A. Wexler wrote:
The Intentional Die Varieties are design differences on the coins for a particular year and denomination that were deliberately made by the U.S. Mint. These would include varieties like the 1960 Lincoln cents with Large Dates and Small Dates, the 1979-S and 1981-S proof Lincoln cents with different mint mark styles, etc. There are many of these design differences that the average collector is not aware of.
The Unintentional Die Varieties are design variations on coins for a particular denomination and year that were produced in error. These varieties include such errors as doubled dies, repunched mint marks (RPMs), over mint marks (OMMs), dual mint marks (DMMs), inverted mint marks (IMMs), repunched dates (RPDs), misplaced dates (MPDs), and overdates (OVDs).
Now that I sold the gold Buffalo Nickel for 400k, it certainly belongs in the top ten.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
The amazing 1970-S gold Washington Quarter is certainly one of the most impressive error coins to me, easily in the Top 5, with contention for the highest ranks.
It looks gorgeous from the photos. I wish I could see it in hand!
Question is :
What is an error coin ?
Any coin found in circulation with proven action, neglect, or by intentinal means, created during the process of reproduction
which does not conform with the directive.
By any means.
My best ever error was a "Transitional "1965 silver cent. NGC MS65. Got it from the late Len Roosmalen who held old school mail bid auctions back in 2001. Paid $3500 and hammered for $8050 in the B&M sale 3/21/2002 Lot 545. Was finest of 5 known at the time. Len was a straight up guy. Had some incredible errors.
@RLSnapper said:
My best ever error was a "Transitional "1965 silver cent. NGC MS65. Got it from the late Len Roosmalen who held old school mail bid auctions back in 2001. Paid $3500 and hammered for $8050 in the B&M sale 3/21/2002 Lot 545. Was finest of 5 known at the time. Len was a straight up guy. Had some incredible errors.
I knew Len well. Nice guy.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
Great info Mike! The top two coins are the same, but I need to add the 1944 steel cents and others!
@Zoins
Thanks! It’s a very long scroll down with extensive info.
Some of the info was taken from the Lincoln Cent category in the HA archives😉
Broader and narrower definitions are always possible.
All cool coins no matter what.
For me die varieties are not errors.
That said, here's a Tom Mulvaney photograph he gifted me back in 1995 of my absolute favorite die variety.
This is the one Mint State variety I wish I owned even though it really does not fit in my error coinage archive.
This variety I posted is #9 on Zoins list, though I assume the old school film image example I posted is much better than that MS65 listed that exchanged hands for 1/4+ of a Million Dollars way back in 2013.
Errors tend to be unique, whereas die varieties are not.
Very nice overdate and die variety @LindyS!
Let me suggest that we start by discussing the title of the thread. Besides the question of is it limited to U.S. coinage or not, what is an error?
Well, it should be limited to U.S. coinage, which should be the default as we are on a US coin forum
As for the definition of what is an error, what's your definition?
I created a separate list of (46) overdate die varieties which have sold for over $100,000,
to show how many are missing if you choose to include this type of variety in your list.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1068606/overdate-auction-price-records-46-over-100-000
Not to be confused with the US mint's biggest mistake, right?
If so, why "error" rather than piece de caprice?
How many unused SBAs are sitting in Mint vaults vs. say Prezi bucks?
Very good question!
We can ask Andy @MrEureka and Saul why these aren't cataloged in Judd. They may have good reasons for not considering these to be piece de caprice. USPatterns.com may provide a hint. Of note, both Saul and Andy are also consultants for Mint Error News so this could be a good discussion!
It's also amazing (or not) that the Virgil Brand specimen was graded VF and Unc, both in 1942. It would be great to be able to identify this specimen today.
The gold Lincoln cents are also amazing, and mysterious!
Ref: https://uspatterns.stores.yahoo.net/p1990.html
Here's the 1906 Gold IHC:
1906 Indian Head Cent Struck on QE Planchet
grade: NGC AU58
price realized: $276,000 on Sep 23, 2009
provenance: Nick Brown
@Zoins
It’s a fascinating mystery surrounding the gold Indian Head Cents. I had the honor of owning two at the same time. There are different theories as to their origin.
@Zoins
Andy actually brokered the 1900 Indian Head Cent in gold, selling it to me. It was the second time that I owned this one. I am referring to the MS 65 PCGS.
Very nice. This can be referred to as the:
Green-Beck-Byers-Lustig Specimen.
An intentional error is a piece de caprice, but it's still considered an error.
The gold Indians were struck on quarter eagle planchets, so they're categorized as errors, even if they were intentionally struck on the wrong planchets. If they had been struck on cent-sized gold planchets specially created for the purpose, they would be considered "off metal strikes", aka "die trials", and would be considered patterns, at least in the broadest sense of the word.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Mike, thank you for providing that list as I was finally able to track down a photo of the 69DD that I found in 1973. The smooshed '9' in the date is the tell. I do not have any surviving photos.
@gonzer
You are welcome!
@Zoins
The first time I owned the 1900 gold IHC was in 1975 thru 1989. Then again in 2005 thru 2015.
The full pedigree is:
Green- decades
Beck - decades
Byers- 1975 thru 1989
Paul Nugget to a customer (brokered)
Andy Lustig from the customer (brokered)
Byers - 2005 thru 2015
New owner
Very nice Mike! This is a great coin and very nice to see your ownership!
If we could combine your two ownership stints, they would add up to 24 years so we could say "Byers - decades" too!
With that amount of ownership time, it should say "Green, Beck, Byers" on the insert
But coins exist outside this forum, so you should label the thread accordingly.
Attached is a picture of a grey area. Heck, we can't even agree if it is grey or gray. You may use this to define "what is an error."
From the posts, people don't seem to be confused, so it seems like you're concerned about a problem that doesn't exist?
If you don't have a definition, there's nothing to compare
I'm good with the definition posted by @yosclimber as I mentioned above.
I was just going through an old 2011 magazine and found the following ad!
Really amazing to see these old coin ads
Good to know and, of course, everyone can have their own definitions.
Here's a definition by John A. Wexler of "Wexler's Die Varieties" where he indicates die varieties are errors for him.
https://doubleddie.com/
Agree!
@Zoins
Now that I sold the gold Buffalo Nickel for 400k, it certainly belongs in the top ten.
🤔 I am in Team Ricko 🥰
Just a thought ….. getting to know US mint in the hot room and get him to place a gold planchet during Next Mercury batch
Hey Fred what about the recently rediscovered” snake coin”?
Rainbow Stars
The amazing 1970-S gold Washington Quarter is certainly one of the most impressive error coins to me, easily in the Top 5, with contention for the highest ranks.
It looks gorgeous from the photos. I wish I could see it in hand!
Question is :
What is an error coin ?
Any coin found in circulation with proven action, neglect, or by intentinal means, created during the process of reproduction
which does not conform with the directive.
By any means.
That gold quarter is amazing.... Imagine finding it in the wild?? Would never happen, but what a thrill that would be. Cheers, RickO
My best ever error was a "Transitional "1965 silver cent. NGC MS65. Got it from the late Len Roosmalen who held old school mail bid auctions back in 2001. Paid $3500 and hammered for $8050 in the B&M sale 3/21/2002 Lot 545. Was finest of 5 known at the time. Len was a straight up guy. Had some incredible errors.
I knew Len well. Nice guy.
I ran into this one recently, a 1973 Ike Dollar struck on a bronze planchet. Amazing coin!!
It's a shame an average guy like me is totally priced out of this market..........I could cry! 😭 🥲
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )