@1951WheatiesPremium said:
You also have to realize that when 50 people with $50k in their pocket immediately want a card that is readily available, the first to sell goes for close to 50k and each subsequent one goes for less as another card winner leaves the market for that card.
Readily available is absolutely the key there. Good point. Because when the card is not readily available, boy does the opposite occur!
He's already got far more great seasons than Koufax.
Sandy Koufax dominated baseball his last five seasons. He won five ERA titles in a row, three of them with an ERA under 2.00! He struck out 300 or more batters three times in that stretch and his record was 111-34! That's a win percentage of .766, which is insane. He went 27-9 with a 1.73 ERA in 1966 and then retired at the age of 30, due to an arthritic elbow. If not for that issue, he could have dominated baseball for another five years minimum.
Mike Trout, on the other hand, has never won a batting or HR title in his career. He led the AL in RBI's once. Hardly a dominating player like Koufax was in his time.
I believe that's what is known as cherrypicking. If Trout had retired after 2019 he would have ended his career with four straight MLB OBP titles, three of five AL slugging percentage titles, and five OPS+ AL titles, the last four major league titles. That compares favorably to Koufax's last five years, but then you have the previous three years with two second place MVP finishes and a first.
Park factors: Koufax had only one year leading the majors in ERA+ and one more leading the NL. It's also extremely foolish to give him credit for what he might have done had he not been injured. A good portion of his W-L record can be attributed to his teammates. None of this is to say that Koufax wasn't great from 1963-66 and very good in 1961 and '62, but there is just no comparison to Trout. The only thing is how favorable conditions were for pitching as the '60s went on.
He's already got far more great seasons than Koufax.
Sandy Koufax dominated baseball his last five seasons. He won five ERA titles in a row, three of them with an ERA under 2.00! He struck out 300 or more batters three times in that stretch and his record was 111-34! That's a win percentage of .766, which is insane. He went 27-9 with a 1.73 ERA in 1966 and then retired at the age of 30, due to an arthritic elbow. If not for that issue, he could have dominated baseball for another five years minimum.
Mike Trout, on the other hand, has never won a batting or HR title in his career. He led the AL in RBI's once. Hardly a dominating player like Koufax was in his time.
trout has been great at accumulating WAR. mostly because he gets a positional adjustment for playing center field at a below average to barely average level and he is really good at drawing walks.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
You also have to realize that when 50 people with $50k in their pocket immediately want a card that is readily available, the first to sell goes for close to 50k and each subsequent one goes for less as another card winner leaves the market for that card.
Readily available is absolutely the key there. Good point. Because when the card is not readily available, boy does the opposite occur!
Agreed.
I would only add, as an economist, that these are unique items with their own unique economic laws. You can throw supply and demand out the window when trying to determine value. While supply and demand is always a factor in price, it’s impact is far less than you’d imagine with items like this.
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He's already got far more great seasons than Koufax.
Sandy Koufax dominated baseball his last five seasons. He won five ERA titles in a row, three of them with an ERA under 2.00! He struck out 300 or more batters three times in that stretch and his record was 111-34! That's a win percentage of .766, which is insane. He went 27-9 with a 1.73 ERA in 1966 and then retired at the age of 30, due to an arthritic elbow. If not for that issue, he could have dominated baseball for another five years minimum.
Mike Trout, on the other hand, has never won a batting or HR title in his career. He led the AL in RBI's once. Hardly a dominating player like Koufax was in his time.
trout has been great at accumulating WAR. mostly because he gets a positional adjustment for playing center field at a below average to barely average level and he is really good at drawing walks.
You say this as though there is no value to playing a key defensive position adequately. No one would confuse Trout with Andruw Jones or even Dom Dimaggio, but it's not like he's Ken Griffey out there.(Rick Monday if you actually think Griffey was a good fielder overall). In Batting Runs Trout is (already) better than Ortiz, Mathews, Reggie Jackson, or Yastrzemski. He's 38th all time, which is very impressive for 11 years with a counting stat. In OPS+ he is only behind Ruth, Williams, Bonds, and Gehrig. He is one of just eight to have an OPS over 1 (the four previously mentioned plus Foxx, Greenberg, and Hornsby. Note that he gets no credit for playing centerfield well, badly or indifferently here. You say that he has his reputation due to drawing walks, but he is the active slugging leader and in the top ten in history.
Note that not once did I mention WAR in regards to Trout in this entire thread.
You're watching one of the very greatest players in baseball history and it's sad that you can't see it because he didn't have the foresight like Jeter did to surround himself with players like Rivera (all four times), Pettitte (ditto), Clemens (twice), Boggs, Raines, Cano, and Rodriguez.
BTW, Jeter's Rbat is 352.7, 150 runs below Trout and right between Dwight Evans and Will Clark. Another way to say it is that you have to add the batting contribution of a Vern Stephens (8 time all-star) or Joe Sewell (Hall of Fame) to that of Jeter to equal Trout IF HE NEVER PLAYS AFTER HE TURNS 30.
An generic example of 2 Mike Trout Fan's discussing career highlights of their favorite player:
Hey Joe, do you recall that regular season game in 2019 when Mike Trout drew his 111th walk of the season. It was a 2 out walk and the next Angel's batter popped out but seeing Trout walk down to first after boldly extending the inning is something I'll never forget
Yes, I sure do it's comparable to the that mid-April regular season game in 2017 when Trout walked 5 times in a game. Boy that was exciting! I thought for a moment in his 5th at bat he might actually take a swing but then he did not, the pitch was called ball 4, it was totally magical!
It sure was Joe. Nothing more exciting than seeing Steve Trout pad his WAR walking to first base.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
@82FootballWaxMemorys said: An generic example of 2 Steve Trout Fan's talking about their favorite player:
Hey Joe, do you recall that regular season game in 2019 when Mike Trout drew his 111th walk of the season. It was a 2 out walk and the next Angel's batter popped out but seeing Trout walk down to first after boldly extending the inning is something I'll never forget
Yes, I sure do it's comparable to the that mid-April regular season game in 2017 when Trout walked 5 times in a game. Boy that was exciting! I thought for a moment in his 5th at bat he might actually take a swing but then he did not, the pitch was called ball 4, it was totally magical!
It sure was Joe. Nothing more exciting than seeing Steve Trout pad his WAR walking to first base.
#LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
@82FootballWaxMemorys said: An generic example of 2 Mike Trout Fan's discussing career highlights of their favorite player:
Hey Joe, do you recall that regular season game in 2019 when Mike Trout drew his 111th walk of the season. It was a 2 out walk and the next Angel's batter popped out but seeing Trout walk down to first after boldly extending the inning is something I'll never forget
Yes, I sure do it's comparable to the that mid-April regular season game in 2017 when Trout walked 5 times in a game. Boy that was exciting! I thought for a moment in his 5th at bat he might actually take a swing but then he did not, the pitch was called ball 4, it was totally magical!
It sure was Joe. Nothing more exciting than seeing Steve Trout pad his WAR walking to first base.
@82FootballWaxMemorys said: An generic example of 2 Steve Trout Fan's talking about their favorite player:
Hey Joe, do you recall that regular season game in 2019 when Mike Trout drew his 111th walk of the season. It was a 2 out walk and the next Angel's batter popped out but seeing Trout walk down to first after boldly extending the inning is something I'll never forget
Yes, I sure do it's comparable to the that mid-April regular season game in 2017 when Trout walked 5 times in a game. Boy that was exciting! I thought for a moment in his 5th at bat he might actually take a swing but then he did not, the pitch was called ball 4, it was totally magical!
It sure was Joe. Nothing more exciting than seeing Steve Trout pad his WAR walking to first base.
Thanks for jumping on that small typo in the 2 minutes I was making corrections. Man "Steve Trout" there's a name I've not heard in decades
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Yes a small sampling. Trout had the opportunity to sign elsewhere and stayed with the Angels in laid back So-Cal on team that plays games with little meaning after July.
Trout:
Say what you want about Jeter having more opportunities, but when stage was the largest he consistently produced - that is the legacy. There may never be anymore to Trouts post-season than the 3 games loss in 2014 where he averaged .083
Jeter:
A full season 158 Post Season Games with 200 hits. Not a power hitter a lead-off hitter although he did average more HR's per at-bat in Post Season than Regular Season.
BTW, yes Jeter should have moved to 3rd or Left 2 years after they got A-Fraud, but all folks will recall as the years go by is the post season production. Like it or not, True Legends are made in all Major Sports during the Post Season's.
P.S. I always have been far more of a Rivera Fan.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Ralph Kiner made the HOF with 369 HRs, so maybe Trout has a chance. But Kiner won seven HR titles in a row, which might have been a factor in his induction into the HOF.
Even if he makes the HOF, it would be as a borderline HOF player. That certainly doesn't justify paying 100k for any of his cards. I'm afraid a lot of Trout investors are going to get a rude awakening in 10 years when they try to cash them in for big bucks.
He's already got far more great seasons than Koufax.
Sandy Koufax dominated baseball his last five seasons. He won five ERA titles in a row, three of them with an ERA under 2.00! He struck out 300 or more batters three times in that stretch and his record was 111-34! That's a win percentage of .766, which is insane. He went 27-9 with a 1.73 ERA in 1966 and then retired at the age of 30, due to an arthritic elbow. If not for that issue, he could have dominated baseball for another five years minimum.
Mike Trout, on the other hand, has never won a batting or HR title in his career. He led the AL in RBI's once. Hardly a dominating player like Koufax was in his time.
OK, Koufax had five great seasons. Trout has 3 MVPs and four MVP runner-up finishes. Trout finished top-5 in the MVP all 9 of his first 9 years in the majors. Koufax had his first good year at the age of 25. By that time, Trout had already won 2 MVPs, an ROY, and finished 2nd in MVP three times. He's led the majors in runs three times, stolen bases once, OBP 3 times, OPS twice, OPS+ four times, and total bases once.
"Hardly a dominating player" in regard to Mike Trout might be the most factually incorrect statement I've ever read on this forum.
You're watching one of the very greatest players in baseball history and it's sad that you can't see it because he didn't have the foresight like Jeter did to surround himself with players like Rivera (all four times), Pettitte (ditto), Clemens (twice), Boggs, Raines, Cano, and Rodriguez.
"had the foresight to surround himself"? You mean happened to get drafted by the largest/wealthiest franchise in Major League Baseball and chose to stay there because he's not stupid.
As a Ripken fan, I've always had an IRRATIONAL hatred towards other shortstops in the 80's and 90's (Ozzie/Trammell/Larkin/Jeter), and especially hated the Yankees, so in my eyes naturally Jeter was the devil himself. But as a baseball fan, Jeter is definitely one of the greatest I've ever had the honor of watching play the game. He's deserved every accolade he's ever received and then some.
Ralph Kiner made the HOF with 369 HRs, so maybe Trout has a chance. But Kiner won seven HR titles in a row, which might have been a factor in his induction into the HOF.
Even if he makes the HOF, it would be as a borderline HOF player. That certainly doesn't justify paying 100k for any of his cards. I'm afraid a lot of Trout investors are going to get a rude awakening in 10 years when they try to cash them in for big bucks.
I would rather buy a 1953 Bowman Ralph Kiner card... and I did...$20.00.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Jeter was probably not even the best player on his team, ever. He was a bad defender. I’m not a Jeter fan, but he had a long productive career. The guy is a HOF’er and he deserves to be in Cooperstown.
@jayhawke said:
Jeter was probably not even the best player on his team, ever. He was a bad defender. I’m not a Jeter fan, but he had a long productive career. The guy is a HOF’er and he deserves to be in Cooperstown.
In 1999, you could make a strong argument that no one had a better statistical season and that Derek Jeter was not only the best player on the Yankees that year but also was the best player in the American League. A similar case can be made for 2006, as well, though not quite as strong as ‘99.
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@jayhawke said:
Jeter was probably not even the best player on his team, ever. He was a bad defender. I’m not a Jeter fan, but he had a long productive career. The guy is a HOF’er and he deserves to be in Cooperstown.
In 1999, you could make a strong argument that no one had a better statistical season and that Derek Jeter was not only the best player on the Yankees that year but also was the best player in the American League. A similar case can be made for 2006, as well, though not quite as strong as ‘99.
2 out of 20 years, good find. Not sure you are even correct. Baseball reference has a different view of the facts.
@jayhawke said:
Jeter was probably not even the best player on his team, ever. He was a bad defender. I’m not a Jeter fan, but he had a long productive career. The guy is a HOF’er and he deserves to be in Cooperstown.
In 1999, you could make a strong argument that no one had a better statistical season and that Derek Jeter was not only the best player on the Yankees that year but also was the best player in the American League. A similar case can be made for 2006, as well, though not quite as strong as ‘99.
2 out of 20 years, good find. Not sure you are even correct. Baseball reference has a different view of the facts.
To be clear, that’s two out of twenty years where he was in the running for best player in the American League and this was to dispute your claim that he wasn’t even the best player on the Yankees - ever.
Funny, baseball-reference.com is precisely where I went for the information:
Jeter:
A full season 158 Post Season Games with 200 hits. Not a power hitter a lead-off hitter although he did average more HR's per at-bat in Post Season than Regular Season.
I'm a little new at this, so you'll have to forgive me, but does the -0.02 under WPA mean that the Yankees were just a little less likely to win after everything Jeter did? Does the 1.2% under cWPA mean that in all 158 postseason games Jeter helped the Yankees win 1.2% of a World Series? There are reasons to be a huge Jeter fan, but being a key part of the postseason Yankees can't possibly be one of them.
@jayhawke said:
Jeter was probably not even the best player on his team, ever. He was a bad defender. I’m not a Jeter fan, but he had a long productive career. The guy is a HOF’er and he deserves to be in Cooperstown.
In 1999, you could make a strong argument that no one had a better statistical season and that Derek Jeter was not only the best player on the Yankees that year but also was the best player in the American League. A similar case can be made for 2006, as well, though not quite as strong as ‘99.
2 out of 20 years, good find. Not sure you are even correct. Baseball reference has a different view of the facts.
To be clear, that’s two out of twenty years where he was in the running for best player in the American League and this was to dispute your claim that he wasn’t even the best player on the Yankees - ever.
Funny, baseball-reference.com is precisely where I went for the information:
@jayhawke said:
Jeter was probably not even the best player on his team, ever. He was a bad defender. I’m not a Jeter fan, but he had a long productive career. The guy is a HOF’er and he deserves to be in Cooperstown.
In 1999, you could make a strong argument that no one had a better statistical season and that Derek Jeter was not only the best player on the Yankees that year but also was the best player in the American League. A similar case can be made for 2006, as well, though not quite as strong as ‘99.
2 out of 20 years, good find. Not sure you are even correct. Baseball reference has a different view of the facts.
To be clear, that’s two out of twenty years where he was in the running for best player in the American League and this was to dispute your claim that he wasn’t even the best player on the Yankees - ever.
Funny, baseball-reference.com is precisely where I went for the information:
…and he appears at the top of a whole lot of statistical ‘stuff.’
I'll give you 1999, but not 2006. Also Randy Velarde was among the best players in 1999. Wang was probably the best Yankee in 2006.
I just like talking baseball. I’m not seeking validation for my opinions and I don’t think stats are the only measure of a player. They’re a measure, and often a pretty good one, but you can use other forms of evaluation, too.
I am merely pointing out that since you could make a good case that he was the best player in baseball in both ‘99 and ‘06 then you can probably also make a pretty good case he was the best player on the Yankees during those seasons, too.
Also, I treat pitchers and batters separately, myself, and was not considering pitchers as part of the argument. Perhaps Wang was better in ‘06…
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Have all Jeters’ 93 cards followed suit? Also, what about the SP in 9?
They've gone down some but have remained stable or even bumped in some cases. His SP in 9 is around $9500.
yes - I follow the SP 9 of Jeter and it never really went as "crazy" as a lot of similar cards did during the past 3 years. it seems to be a strong card in 9.
Jeter 6th All Time Hits,5 Rings,smart enough to stay single all those years and didn't let it all go to his liver like The Mick. Who cares about his defensive metrics.
How much did it sale for is one of the funniest and most ignorant things I've ever heard.
While y’all are comparing Jeter and Trout let me throw in a different player. Let’s compare apples to apples. Trea Turner…He has very comparable numbers to Jeter, with around 1,000 less at bats, yet he doesn’t get near they hype Jeter did. That’s because Jeter was a Yankee, the most notorious team in baseball, and Turner was a National, one of the least notorious, until very recently. Well now Turner is a Dodger so maybe he will start to be appreciated a little more, now that he’s on the second most notorious team in baseball. I know most people would say Correa or maybe even the newest $300M player, Seager, but I’m saying Turner overshadows Jeter in the years to come. We won’t even Mention Fernando Tatis Jr….
@parthur1607 said:
While y’all are comparing Jeter and Trout let me throw in a different player. Let’s compare apples to apples. Trea Turner…He has very comparable numbers to Jeter, with around 1,000 less at bats, yet he doesn’t get near they hype Jeter did. That’s because Jeter was a Yankee, the most notorious team in baseball, and Turner was a National, one of the least notorious, until very recently. Well now Turner is a Dodger so maybe he will start to be appreciated a little more, now that he’s on the second most notorious team in baseball. I know most people would say Correa or maybe even the newest $300M player, Seager, but I’m saying Turner overshadows Jeter in the years to come. We won’t even Mention Fernando Tatis Jr….
@parthur1607 said:
While y’all are comparing Jeter and Trout let me throw in a different player. Let’s compare apples to apples. Trea Turner…He has very comparable numbers to Jeter, with around 1,000 less at bats, yet he doesn’t get near they hype Jeter did. That’s because Jeter was a Yankee, the most notorious team in baseball, and Turner was a National, one of the least notorious, until very recently. Well now Turner is a Dodger so maybe he will start to be appreciated a little more, now that he’s on the second most notorious team in baseball. I know most people would say Correa or maybe even the newest $300M player, Seager, but I’m saying Turner overshadows Jeter in the years to come. We won’t even Mention Fernando Tatis Jr….
Huh? Turner has about 1/4 the at bats.
Sorry I meant 1,000 less at this point in his career. I actually looked this up the other night before this thread began because someone else had mentioned Jeter. Jeter’s stats through his first 7 years weren’t much better, if any, than Turner’s are through his first 7 years. Turner has more HR and SB and his batting average is only slightly lower. OPS is very close. Turner will easily overtake Jeter in offensive stats.
Also I never thought of Jeter as a bad defensive player. I always thought he was one of the best. I can remember highlight after highlight of him backhanding a ball DEEP in the 5/6 hole, spinning and jumping, while his momentum was still going AWAY from first base, and throwing the runner out at first. You don’t see many people that can do that. I don’t care what the metrics say, to make that play as many times as he did puts him in the top tier defensive shortstops in my book.
With that being said. I think Turner is a better defender also!
Mickey Cochran won MVP over Lou Gehrig in a year (1934) where Lou won a triple crown. By the statistics, this is an epic travesty. I don’t think I need to explain why.
However, Mickey was the catcher of the team, the manager of the team and had a really solid season as a hitter, quite literally leading the Tigers to the pennant over those Ruth and Gehrig (and Lefty Gonez who was the best pitcher in baseball) led Yankees.
Think about that for a second - catching and managing a pennant winner and hitting .320 to boot!
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Sometimes it’s about more than just stats. Team leaders set a tone for the team and by all accounts, Derek Jeter was a team leader - focused on winning more than any other - from the day he walked in the door his rookie year.
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See, this thread is exactly why you can’t compliment Jeter to Yankees fans.
Jeter was the best player in the AL in 1999! (Checked my notes, he finished fifth in MVP voting that year)
Jeter is a better player than Trout! Intangibles! (So long as team achievements are weighed more heavily than individual achievements in assessing an individual’s talents?)
Jeter was underrated defensively! All defensive measures suck! Plus, the Flip! (Carlos Correa knows more about playing short than most people on this thread so just reference what he said)
I am certainly no Yankees fan! Been a Braves fan since I was a boy in the late 80s. I love that the Yankees have had to buy nearly all of their World Series titles (payroll). Loved it even more the past two years that a team with one of the lowest payrolls has won that division! BUT I will give Jeter credit for the amazing plays he made at short. He was good and yes he may have been the captain, leader, whatever you want to call it, but he was also surrounded by talent. Mike Trout on the other hand, until the angels signed rendon, never had better than average teammates and certainly never the pitching that the Yankees had in the years they won while Jeter was there. The whole championship argument is the biggest load of “pop-tarts” in all of sports. No one player has ever won a championship. MAYBE in basketball you could make that argument since each team only has 5 players on the court. Baseball is completely different. Pitching wins championships in baseball, not shortstops. Freddie Freeman is every bit the leader Jeter was, and puts up better offensive numbers, but he didn’t win the World Series by himself even if he did hit some key HRs throughout the post season.
@GreenSneakers said:
See, this thread is exactly why you can’t compliment Jeter to Yankees fans.
Jeter was the best player in the AL in 1999! (Checked my notes, he finished fifth in MVP voting that year)
Jeter is a better player than Trout! Intangibles! (So long as team achievements are weighed more heavily than individual achievements in assessing an individual’s talents?)
Jeter was underrated defensively! All defensive measures suck! Plus, the Flip! (Carlos Correa knows more about playing short than most people on this thread so just reference what he said)
As a Yankees fan and Jeter fan, I respectfully disagree. I will start by saying that most Red Sox fans went from ‘hate and overrated’ early on to eventual begrudging respect for Derek Jeter over his career. And I definitely appreciate that and any compliments thrown his way, particularly from the rival fan base.
Since I made the point you reference, I didn’t say Jeter was the best player in the AL in 1999, simply that a case could be made that he was, and that by that logic he was very likely also the best player on his own team - the actual point I was trying to make to the poster who asserted that Jeter wasn’t EVER the best player on the Yankees in any season. Having watched baseball like crazy at the time, when I think of 1999 the first thing I think of is Pedro Martinez throwing baseballs like wiffle balls. He was cocky and awesome and I hated him. But again, I don’t usually consider pitchers in the same vein as everyday players.
I don’t think Derek Jeter is a better player than Mike Trout, who gets a lot of shade thrown his way because he is on a garbage team run by a foolish and impatient owner. I would not and have never made such a claim, unless in jest. Prior in the thread, I was having a little fun at Trout’s expense because he’s been injury prone but he is a vastly superior hitter, if I wasn’t expressly clear.
When people claim Derek Jeter is the ‘worst defensive shortstop ever’, it just seems like the statistics are being manipulated to cast him in a terrible light. In reality, Jeter was an average defender - not the best or the worst - who was lacking in mechanics and footwork early on that he improved as his athleticism declined, helping to keep him an average defender for a bit longer. Obviously, the last few years he was not the same defender and I think it’s very fair to say that his baseball IQ also helped make up for some of his defensive deficiencies.
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Jeter and Bernie Williams had similar offensive numbers in 1999. However, when you look at their defensive numbers, Williams is clearly the better overall player on the 1999 team.
@jayhawke said:
Jeter and Bernie Williams had similar offensive numbers in 1999. However, when you look at their defensive numbers, Williams is clearly the better overall player on the 1999 team.
You are most certainly entitled to your opinion(s).
PS - Love Bernie, too…
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@GreenSneakers said:
See, this thread is exactly why you can’t compliment Jeter to Yankees fans.
Jeter was the best player in the AL in 1999! (Checked my notes, he finished fifth in MVP voting that year)
Jeter is a better player than Trout! Intangibles! (So long as team achievements are weighed more heavily than individual achievements in assessing an individual’s talents?)
Jeter was underrated defensively! All defensive measures suck! Plus, the Flip! (Carlos Correa knows more about playing short than most people on this thread so just reference what he said)
As a Yankees fan and Jeter fan, I respectfully disagree. I will start by saying that most Red Sox fans went from ‘hate and overrated’ early on to eventual begrudging respect for Derek Jeter over his career. And I definitely appreciate that and any compliments thrown his way, particularly from the rival fan base.
Since I made the point you reference, I didn’t say Jeter was the best player in the AL in 1999, simply that a case could be made that he was, and that by that logic he was very likely also the best player on his own team - the actual point I was trying to make to the poster who asserted that Jeter wasn’t EVER the best player on the Yankees in any season. Having watched baseball like crazy at the time, when I think of 1999 the first thing I think of is Pedro Martinez throwing baseballs like wiffle balls. He was cocky and awesome and I hated him. But again, I don’t usually consider pitchers in the same vein as everyday players.
I don’t think Derek Jeter is a better player than Mike Trout, who gets a lot of shade thrown his way because he is on a garbage team run by a foolish and impatient owner. I would not and have never made such a claim.
When people claim Derek Jeter is the ‘worst defensive shortstop ever’, it just seems like the statistics are being manipulated to cast him in a terrible light. In reality, Jeter was an average defender - not the best or the worst - who was lacking in mechanics and footwork early on that he improved as his athleticism declined, helping to keep him an average defender for a bit longer. Obviously, the last few years he was not the same defender and I think it’s very fair to say that his baseball IQ also helped make up for some of his defensive deficiencies.
coming from a Red Sox fan, I do have a begrudging respect for Jeter now that all is said and done. I think he was a very good offensive SS, and a not-so-good defensive SS. now, I also give him credit for being a great team leader and though it is not something i would ever normally say, he had great intangibles. Now, I have no way to measure intangibles or to rank players who i think did have them. but I watched just about every single Jeter playoff game and i saw that he had "it" whatever "it" is. I cant explain it, but I saw it. I also saw it in some other players: George Brett, Smoltz, Schilling and Ortiz also had "it" to one degree to another.
Jeter and Molitor have almost identical statistics, with Molitor crushing Jeter in triples and stolen bases. Sports can be all about luck, and Jeter hit the lottery multiple times. I have no axe to grind, just a fun fact. Please look up Molitor's stats if you love baseball. Jeter is an old school grinder and I liked how he played. Hope he can figure this Marlins thing out.
@FirstBeard said:
Jeter and Molitor have almost identical statistics, with Molitor crushing Jeter in triples and stolen bases. Sports can be all about luck, and Jeter hit the lottery multiple times. I have no axe to grind, just a fun fact. Please look up Molitor's stats if you love baseball. Jeter is an old school grinder and I liked how he played. Hope he can figure this Marlins thing out.
I was fortunate enough to have watched Paul Molitor and he was such a great player. Very deserving HOFer.
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I think what sometimes gets overlooked in HOF discussions is that it is the Hall of FAME, not necessarily the Hall of Metrics, or the Hall of Stats, or the Hall of WAR, or the Hall of World Series Champs, etc. I think there is a component of entrance into the HOF that is baseball's version of mythology. Players elevated to gods, heroes on the diamond. There are a number of people who entered the HOF who had solid numbers, but got a little extra push because of where they played, or what legendary games they participated in, or whether or not the media liked them. There are certainly a number of players who pushed on a little longer than they should have and who were able to get that 400th or 500th home run, or that 3000th hit, or that 300th win, who were not all that special in their twilight years. But they were special to the fans, especially to the kids who grew up watching them. I think that players like Jeter certainly benefit from baseball mythology. And to me, that's perfectly fine. Baseball is better, in my opinion, when legends and heroes stay on their pedestals. It's good for kids and fans to have heroes. For many kids growing up from 1995-2005 or so, Jeter was their hero. That status gives him a little extra push that other similarly metric-ed players might not receive.
kevin
@GreenSneakers said:
See, this thread is exactly why you can’t compliment Jeter to Yankees fans.
Jeter was the best player in the AL in 1999! (Checked my notes, he finished fifth in MVP voting that year)
Jeter is a better player than Trout! Intangibles! (So long as team achievements are weighed more heavily than individual achievements in assessing an individual’s talents?)
Jeter was underrated defensively! All defensive measures suck! Plus, the Flip! (Carlos Correa knows more about playing short than most people on this thread so just reference what he said)
As a Yankees fan and Jeter fan, I respectfully disagree. I will start by saying that most Red Sox fans went from ‘hate and overrated’ early on to eventual begrudging respect for Derek Jeter over his career. And I definitely appreciate that and any compliments thrown his way, particularly from the rival fan base.
Since I made the point you reference, I didn’t say Jeter was the best player in the AL in 1999, simply that a case could be made that he was, and that by that logic he was very likely also the best player on his own team - the actual point I was trying to make to the poster who asserted that Jeter wasn’t EVER the best player on the Yankees in any season. Having watched baseball like crazy at the time, when I think of 1999 the first thing I think of is Pedro Martinez throwing baseballs like wiffle balls. He was cocky and awesome and I hated him. But again, I don’t usually consider pitchers in the same vein as everyday players.
I don’t think Derek Jeter is a better player than Mike Trout, who gets a lot of shade thrown his way because he is on a garbage team run by a foolish and impatient owner. I would not and have never made such a claim.
When people claim Derek Jeter is the ‘worst defensive shortstop ever’, it just seems like the statistics are being manipulated to cast him in a terrible light. In reality, Jeter was an average defender - not the best or the worst - who was lacking in mechanics and footwork early on that he improved as his athleticism declined, helping to keep him an average defender for a bit longer. Obviously, the last few years he was not the same defender and I think it’s very fair to say that his baseball IQ also helped make up for some of his defensive deficiencies.
coming from a Red Sox fan, I do have a begrudging respect for Jeter now that all is said and done. I think he was a very good offensive SS, and a not-so-good defensive SS. now, I also give him credit for being a great team leader and though it is not something i would ever normally say, he had great intangibles. Now, I have no way to measure intangibles or to rank players who i think did have them. but I watched just about every single Jeter playoff game and i saw that he had "it" whatever "it" is. I cant explain it, but I saw it. I also saw it in some other players: George Brett, Smoltz, Schilling and Ortiz also had "it" to one degree to another.
I went to college in New England and formed friendships with mant sox fans. I also watch lots of baseball and more than just Yankees games.
I always felt there were a lot of parallels between Jeter and Dustin Pedroia in that they had the good stats but that didn’t really reveal just how good they really were.
And it could be something stupid like the team just gave up some runs in the top of the third to make it a 2-2 game and he (either guy) leads off the next inning with a double, comes around to score and regain the lead and the team wins 5-2. It goes in the books as a single and run but it was a ‘big hit’ or an ‘answer back’ at a critical point in a game that maybe didn’t determine it’s outcome but helped swing in game momentum. You don’t see that show up, necessarily and with full impact, on a stat sheet. Yes there are metrics that serve to isolate some of it but I have always found it better and more interesting to watch the games, instead.
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Sox fan and yes now I can appreciate Jeter. The scale of Gold Gloves is my challenge and will always be the challenge….nobody can tell me that he deserved them all.
Jeter:
A full season 158 Post Season Games with 200 hits. Not a power hitter a lead-off hitter although he did average more HR's per at-bat in Post Season than Regular Season.
I'm a little new at this, so you'll have to forgive me, but does the -0.02 under WPA mean that the Yankees were just a little less likely to win after everything Jeter did? Does the 1.2% under cWPA mean that in all 158 postseason games Jeter helped the Yankees win 1.2% of a World Series? There are reasons to be a huge Jeter fan, but being a key part of the postseason Yankees can't possibly be one of them.
Jeter:
A full season 158 Post Season Games with 200 hits. Not a power hitter a lead-off hitter although he did average more HR's per at-bat in Post Season than Regular Season.
I'm a little new at this, so you'll have to forgive me, but does the -0.02 under WPA mean that the Yankees were just a little less likely to win after everything Jeter did? Does the 1.2% under cWPA mean that in all 158 postseason games Jeter helped the Yankees win 1.2% of a World Series? There are reasons to be a huge Jeter fan, but being a key part of the postseason Yankees can't possibly be one of them.
WPA favors HR's and RBI's over Hits and Batting Average IMHO.
Jeter was the lead-off hitter in vast majority of his post season games. A lead off hitter's Job is to get on base so he may score runs. Jeter had 200 Post-Season Hits in 650 at-bats. That is excellent during the regular season but in post-season against the best best starting pitching it's superb.
If you look at the WPA for 2000 when Jeter was WS MVP it's really not that high. But yet ask any who watched those games especially NY Met's fans and they will tell you without Jeter the Yankees probably (or definitely) do not win.
You will also find that late 1990's-2001 Braves Fans, Mets Fans, Padre Fans, Rangers Fans, Oakland Fans , Red Sox Fans, despise Jeter. Part of that is due to his high level of play in the post season.
Jeter is career leader in many vital (especially for lead-off hitter) non Power related post-season categories:
Hits
Doubles
Total Bases
Runs
Jeter's job hitting leadoff in post-season games was to get get on-base and start potential rallies he that did time and time again. Just as Fans's of the teams I mentioned above will attest.
Look at the numbers all you want to prove me differently - fine, however be aware that it will never change the legend and the perception of his post-season career. A post-season career Mike Trout will never have even though he is on a team that has the 2 mathematically "best" players in the game.
P.S. As a small counter point here is something i've been saying for over decade: Without Jeter the 1996-2009 Yankees probably still win 3 of their 5 Championships. Without Mariano Rivera they perhaps win 1 of 5?
The Angels still win 0 World's Series Championships from 2011-2021 with or without Mike Trout. They also still win 0 Post Season Games in that time frame with or without Mike Trout. Is Trout to blame? Certainly not. However the sad fact of his lack of single post-season game victory remains.
Future generations will recall Trout no better than current day folks recall Ernie Banks but at least Ernie is known to younger folk for "Let's Play Two". Seems to me Trout in lieu of a post season resume had better come up with a catchy witty saying, as his walk enhanced mathematical metrics without a Championship will be forgotten by most a few years after his career ends.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Agree with most of what is being said. Mike Trout's postseason career is concerning and problematic. That loss to KC on home ice will always stand out to me. Jeter's inside-out swing to crush singles to RF is one of the prettiest things in baseball.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that Jeter is not a Hall of Famer - he was a great player. However he pales in comparison to many of the other players being mentioned.
I am confused on the current people not knowing who Ernie Banks is without “Let’s Play Two” - I don’t think that saying is huge among the kids. People who study baseball history will know both Jeter and Trout. People who don’t will likely know neither of them 50 years after their last game like it is with Ernie Banks.
@brad31 said:
I don’t think anyone is arguing that Jeter is not a Hall of Famer - he was a great player. However he pales in comparison to many of the other players being mentioned.
I am confused on the current people not knowing who Ernie Banks is without “Let’s Play Two” - I don’t think that saying is huge among the kids. People who study baseball history will know both Jeter and Trout. People who don’t will likely know neither of them 50 years after their last game like it is with Ernie Banks.
You don’t think Jeter gets remembered?
He did have some crossover appeal outside of baseball: he was every girls favorite (famous or not), one of a handful of athletes that have hosted SNL, currently owns the Florida Marlins and is the all time leader in a lot of significant categories for the New York Yankees, many of which will stand for a very long time.
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@brad31 said:
I don’t think anyone is arguing that Jeter is not a Hall of Famer - he was a great player. However he pales in comparison to many of the other players being mentioned.
I am confused on the current people not knowing who Ernie Banks is without “Let’s Play Two” - I don’t think that saying is huge among the kids. People who study baseball history will know both Jeter and Trout. People who don’t will likely know neither of them 50 years after their last game like it is with Ernie Banks.
You don’t think Jeter gets remembered?
He did have some crossover appeal outside of baseball: he was every girls favorite (famous or not), one of a handful of athletes that have hosted SNL, currently owns the Florida Marlins and is the all time leader in a lot of significant categories for the New York Yankees, many of which will stand for a very long time.
Nitpick: Co-owner with a very tiny piece. His action in that role thus far are not endearing to his overall legacy.
Perhaps Trout will hang on long enough for his contract to expire then pick up a championship with another team. Like Winfield (in 1992), Boggs (who rode a horse) or Molitor (still hitting liners in '93).
Full Disclosure:
I own PSA 9 1993 SP Jeter which i originally purchased raw in 1998.
I do not own and have never owned any PSA graded Sports card post 1994.
I have not purchased any Sports cards that were issued after 2006. This I have no Trout cards.
On the occasions I purchase a graded sports card it is usually a late 60's - 1980 issue. With an even less occasional purchase of a 1981-1985 issued card.
I do wish I had sold my PSA 9 SP 93 Jeter when it was at 24K assuming a non-market manipulator like myself could even get that amount. Meaning was it real?
I no longer pay much attention to Baseball. Have not in 10 years.
While I am a Yankee fan my 90's run guy's in order were: Mariano, O'Neil, Bernie, Tino, Brosius, El Duque, Jeter, Cone, Stanton, Key, Posada, and Ramiro.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
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Readily available is absolutely the key there. Good point. Because when the card is not readily available, boy does the opposite occur!
Instagram: mattyc_collection
I believe that's what is known as cherrypicking. If Trout had retired after 2019 he would have ended his career with four straight MLB OBP titles, three of five AL slugging percentage titles, and five OPS+ AL titles, the last four major league titles. That compares favorably to Koufax's last five years, but then you have the previous three years with two second place MVP finishes and a first.
Park factors: Koufax had only one year leading the majors in ERA+ and one more leading the NL. It's also extremely foolish to give him credit for what he might have done had he not been injured. A good portion of his W-L record can be attributed to his teammates. None of this is to say that Koufax wasn't great from 1963-66 and very good in 1961 and '62, but there is just no comparison to Trout. The only thing is how favorable conditions were for pitching as the '60s went on.
trout has been great at accumulating WAR. mostly because he gets a positional adjustment for playing center field at a below average to barely average level and he is really good at drawing walks.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Agreed.
I would only add, as an economist, that these are unique items with their own unique economic laws. You can throw supply and demand out the window when trying to determine value. While supply and demand is always a factor in price, it’s impact is far less than you’d imagine with items like this.
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You say this as though there is no value to playing a key defensive position adequately. No one would confuse Trout with Andruw Jones or even Dom Dimaggio, but it's not like he's Ken Griffey out there.(Rick Monday if you actually think Griffey was a good fielder overall). In Batting Runs Trout is (already) better than Ortiz, Mathews, Reggie Jackson, or Yastrzemski. He's 38th all time, which is very impressive for 11 years with a counting stat. In OPS+ he is only behind Ruth, Williams, Bonds, and Gehrig. He is one of just eight to have an OPS over 1 (the four previously mentioned plus Foxx, Greenberg, and Hornsby. Note that he gets no credit for playing centerfield well, badly or indifferently here. You say that he has his reputation due to drawing walks, but he is the active slugging leader and in the top ten in history.
Note that not once did I mention WAR in regards to Trout in this entire thread.
You're watching one of the very greatest players in baseball history and it's sad that you can't see it because he didn't have the foresight like Jeter did to surround himself with players like Rivera (all four times), Pettitte (ditto), Clemens (twice), Boggs, Raines, Cano, and Rodriguez.
BTW, Jeter's Rbat is 352.7, 150 runs below Trout and right between Dwight Evans and Will Clark. Another way to say it is that you have to add the batting contribution of a Vern Stephens (8 time all-star) or Joe Sewell (Hall of Fame) to that of Jeter to equal Trout IF HE NEVER PLAYS AFTER HE TURNS 30.
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An generic example of 2 Mike Trout Fan's discussing career highlights of their favorite player:
Hey Joe, do you recall that regular season game in 2019 when Mike Trout drew his 111th walk of the season. It was a 2 out walk and the next Angel's batter popped out but seeing Trout walk down to first after boldly extending the inning is something I'll never forget
Yes, I sure do it's comparable to the that mid-April regular season game in 2017 when Trout walked 5 times in a game. Boy that was exciting! I thought for a moment in his 5th at bat he might actually take a swing but then he did not, the pitch was called ball 4, it was totally magical!
It sure was Joe. Nothing more exciting than seeing Steve Trout pad his WAR walking to first base.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Thanks for jumping on that small typo in the 2 minutes I was making corrections. Man "Steve Trout" there's a name I've not heard in decades
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Yes a small sampling. Trout had the opportunity to sign elsewhere and stayed with the Angels in laid back So-Cal on team that plays games with little meaning after July.
Trout:
Say what you want about Jeter having more opportunities, but when stage was the largest he consistently produced - that is the legacy. There may never be anymore to Trouts post-season than the 3 games loss in 2014 where he averaged .083
Jeter:
A full season 158 Post Season Games with 200 hits. Not a power hitter a lead-off hitter although he did average more HR's per at-bat in Post Season than Regular Season.
BTW, yes Jeter should have moved to 3rd or Left 2 years after they got A-Fraud, but all folks will recall as the years go by is the post season production. Like it or not, True Legends are made in all Major Sports during the Post Season's.
P.S. I always have been far more of a Rivera Fan.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Ralph Kiner made the HOF with 369 HRs, so maybe Trout has a chance. But Kiner won seven HR titles in a row, which might have been a factor in his induction into the HOF.
Even if he makes the HOF, it would be as a borderline HOF player. That certainly doesn't justify paying 100k for any of his cards. I'm afraid a lot of Trout investors are going to get a rude awakening in 10 years when they try to cash them in for big bucks.
OK, Koufax had five great seasons. Trout has 3 MVPs and four MVP runner-up finishes. Trout finished top-5 in the MVP all 9 of his first 9 years in the majors. Koufax had his first good year at the age of 25. By that time, Trout had already won 2 MVPs, an ROY, and finished 2nd in MVP three times. He's led the majors in runs three times, stolen bases once, OBP 3 times, OPS twice, OPS+ four times, and total bases once.
"Hardly a dominating player" in regard to Mike Trout might be the most factually incorrect statement I've ever read on this forum.
"had the foresight to surround himself"? You mean happened to get drafted by the largest/wealthiest franchise in Major League Baseball and chose to stay there because he's not stupid.
As a Ripken fan, I've always had an IRRATIONAL hatred towards other shortstops in the 80's and 90's (Ozzie/Trammell/Larkin/Jeter), and especially hated the Yankees, so in my eyes naturally Jeter was the devil himself. But as a baseball fan, Jeter is definitely one of the greatest I've ever had the honor of watching play the game. He's deserved every accolade he's ever received and then some.
Jeter is the Schrödinger’s cat of baseball players. Simultaneously the most overrated and underrated player of all time.
MisterTim wrote:
Ralph Kiner made the HOF with 369 HRs, so maybe Trout has a chance. But Kiner won seven HR titles in a row, which might have been a factor in his induction into the HOF.
Even if he makes the HOF, it would be as a borderline HOF player. That certainly doesn't justify paying 100k for any of his cards. I'm afraid a lot of Trout investors are going to get a rude awakening in 10 years when they try to cash them in for big bucks.
I would rather buy a 1953 Bowman Ralph Kiner card... and I did...$20.00.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
This is sublime. Golf clap.
Jeter was probably not even the best player on his team, ever. He was a bad defender. I’m not a Jeter fan, but he had a long productive career. The guy is a HOF’er and he deserves to be in Cooperstown.
In 1999, you could make a strong argument that no one had a better statistical season and that Derek Jeter was not only the best player on the Yankees that year but also was the best player in the American League. A similar case can be made for 2006, as well, though not quite as strong as ‘99.
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2 out of 20 years, good find. Not sure you are even correct. Baseball reference has a different view of the facts.
To be clear, that’s two out of twenty years where he was in the running for best player in the American League and this was to dispute your claim that he wasn’t even the best player on the Yankees - ever.
Funny, baseball-reference.com is precisely where I went for the information:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/1999-batting-leaders.shtml
…and he appears at the top of a whole lot of statistical ‘stuff.’
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I'm a little new at this, so you'll have to forgive me, but does the -0.02 under WPA mean that the Yankees were just a little less likely to win after everything Jeter did? Does the 1.2% under cWPA mean that in all 158 postseason games Jeter helped the Yankees win 1.2% of a World Series? There are reasons to be a huge Jeter fan, but being a key part of the postseason Yankees can't possibly be one of them.
I'll give you 1999, but not 2006. Also Randy Velarde was among the best players in 1999. Wang was probably the best Yankee in 2006.
I just like talking baseball. I’m not seeking validation for my opinions and I don’t think stats are the only measure of a player. They’re a measure, and often a pretty good one, but you can use other forms of evaluation, too.
I am merely pointing out that since you could make a good case that he was the best player in baseball in both ‘99 and ‘06 then you can probably also make a pretty good case he was the best player on the Yankees during those seasons, too.
Also, I treat pitchers and batters separately, myself, and was not considering pitchers as part of the argument. Perhaps Wang was better in ‘06…
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I love all the talk about trout being such a transcendent slugger.
How many times did this transcendent slugger lead his league in hr, 2b or 3b?
that would be none.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
yes - I follow the SP 9 of Jeter and it never really went as "crazy" as a lot of similar cards did during the past 3 years. it seems to be a strong card in 9.
Lots of "Get off my lawn!!" fist shaking energy in this thread. It's really adorable.
Jeter 6th All Time Hits,5 Rings,smart enough to stay single all those years and didn't let it all go to his liver like The Mick. Who cares about his defensive metrics.
How much did it sale for is one of the funniest and most ignorant things I've ever heard.
Someone said..
....four straight MLB OBP titles, three of five AL slugging percentage titles, and five OPS+ AL titles....
Are there really OBP and OPS+ titles?
While y’all are comparing Jeter and Trout let me throw in a different player. Let’s compare apples to apples. Trea Turner…He has very comparable numbers to Jeter, with around 1,000 less at bats, yet he doesn’t get near they hype Jeter did. That’s because Jeter was a Yankee, the most notorious team in baseball, and Turner was a National, one of the least notorious, until very recently. Well now Turner is a Dodger so maybe he will start to be appreciated a little more, now that he’s on the second most notorious team in baseball. I know most people would say Correa or maybe even the newest $300M player, Seager, but I’m saying Turner overshadows Jeter in the years to come. We won’t even Mention Fernando Tatis Jr….
Huh? Turner has about 1/4 the at bats.
Sorry I meant 1,000 less at this point in his career. I actually looked this up the other night before this thread began because someone else had mentioned Jeter. Jeter’s stats through his first 7 years weren’t much better, if any, than Turner’s are through his first 7 years. Turner has more HR and SB and his batting average is only slightly lower. OPS is very close. Turner will easily overtake Jeter in offensive stats.
Also I never thought of Jeter as a bad defensive player. I always thought he was one of the best. I can remember highlight after highlight of him backhanding a ball DEEP in the 5/6 hole, spinning and jumping, while his momentum was still going AWAY from first base, and throwing the runner out at first. You don’t see many people that can do that. I don’t care what the metrics say, to make that play as many times as he did puts him in the top tier defensive shortstops in my book.
With that being said. I think Turner is a better defender also!
Mickey Cochran won MVP over Lou Gehrig in a year (1934) where Lou won a triple crown. By the statistics, this is an epic travesty. I don’t think I need to explain why.
However, Mickey was the catcher of the team, the manager of the team and had a really solid season as a hitter, quite literally leading the Tigers to the pennant over those Ruth and Gehrig (and Lefty Gonez who was the best pitcher in baseball) led Yankees.
Think about that for a second - catching and managing a pennant winner and hitting .320 to boot!
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Sometimes it’s about more than just stats. Team leaders set a tone for the team and by all accounts, Derek Jeter was a team leader - focused on winning more than any other - from the day he walked in the door his rookie year.
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See, this thread is exactly why you can’t compliment Jeter to Yankees fans.
Jeter was the best player in the AL in 1999! (Checked my notes, he finished fifth in MVP voting that year)
Jeter is a better player than Trout! Intangibles! (So long as team achievements are weighed more heavily than individual achievements in assessing an individual’s talents?)
Jeter was underrated defensively! All defensive measures suck! Plus, the Flip! (Carlos Correa knows more about playing short than most people on this thread so just reference what he said)
I am certainly no Yankees fan! Been a Braves fan since I was a boy in the late 80s. I love that the Yankees have had to buy nearly all of their World Series titles (payroll). Loved it even more the past two years that a team with one of the lowest payrolls has won that division! BUT I will give Jeter credit for the amazing plays he made at short. He was good and yes he may have been the captain, leader, whatever you want to call it, but he was also surrounded by talent. Mike Trout on the other hand, until the angels signed rendon, never had better than average teammates and certainly never the pitching that the Yankees had in the years they won while Jeter was there. The whole championship argument is the biggest load of “pop-tarts” in all of sports. No one player has ever won a championship. MAYBE in basketball you could make that argument since each team only has 5 players on the court. Baseball is completely different. Pitching wins championships in baseball, not shortstops. Freddie Freeman is every bit the leader Jeter was, and puts up better offensive numbers, but he didn’t win the World Series by himself even if he did hit some key HRs throughout the post season.
As a Yankees fan and Jeter fan, I respectfully disagree. I will start by saying that most Red Sox fans went from ‘hate and overrated’ early on to eventual begrudging respect for Derek Jeter over his career. And I definitely appreciate that and any compliments thrown his way, particularly from the rival fan base.
Since I made the point you reference, I didn’t say Jeter was the best player in the AL in 1999, simply that a case could be made that he was, and that by that logic he was very likely also the best player on his own team - the actual point I was trying to make to the poster who asserted that Jeter wasn’t EVER the best player on the Yankees in any season. Having watched baseball like crazy at the time, when I think of 1999 the first thing I think of is Pedro Martinez throwing baseballs like wiffle balls. He was cocky and awesome and I hated him. But again, I don’t usually consider pitchers in the same vein as everyday players.
I don’t think Derek Jeter is a better player than Mike Trout, who gets a lot of shade thrown his way because he is on a garbage team run by a foolish and impatient owner. I would not and have never made such a claim, unless in jest. Prior in the thread, I was having a little fun at Trout’s expense because he’s been injury prone but he is a vastly superior hitter, if I wasn’t expressly clear.
When people claim Derek Jeter is the ‘worst defensive shortstop ever’, it just seems like the statistics are being manipulated to cast him in a terrible light. In reality, Jeter was an average defender - not the best or the worst - who was lacking in mechanics and footwork early on that he improved as his athleticism declined, helping to keep him an average defender for a bit longer. Obviously, the last few years he was not the same defender and I think it’s very fair to say that his baseball IQ also helped make up for some of his defensive deficiencies.
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Jeter and Bernie Williams had similar offensive numbers in 1999. However, when you look at their defensive numbers, Williams is clearly the better overall player on the 1999 team.
You are most certainly entitled to your opinion(s).
PS - Love Bernie, too…
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coming from a Red Sox fan, I do have a begrudging respect for Jeter now that all is said and done. I think he was a very good offensive SS, and a not-so-good defensive SS. now, I also give him credit for being a great team leader and though it is not something i would ever normally say, he had great intangibles. Now, I have no way to measure intangibles or to rank players who i think did have them. but I watched just about every single Jeter playoff game and i saw that he had "it" whatever "it" is. I cant explain it, but I saw it. I also saw it in some other players: George Brett, Smoltz, Schilling and Ortiz also had "it" to one degree to another.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Jeter and Molitor have almost identical statistics, with Molitor crushing Jeter in triples and stolen bases. Sports can be all about luck, and Jeter hit the lottery multiple times. I have no axe to grind, just a fun fact. Please look up Molitor's stats if you love baseball. Jeter is an old school grinder and I liked how he played. Hope he can figure this Marlins thing out.
I was fortunate enough to have watched Paul Molitor and he was such a great player. Very deserving HOFer.
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I think what sometimes gets overlooked in HOF discussions is that it is the Hall of FAME, not necessarily the Hall of Metrics, or the Hall of Stats, or the Hall of WAR, or the Hall of World Series Champs, etc. I think there is a component of entrance into the HOF that is baseball's version of mythology. Players elevated to gods, heroes on the diamond. There are a number of people who entered the HOF who had solid numbers, but got a little extra push because of where they played, or what legendary games they participated in, or whether or not the media liked them. There are certainly a number of players who pushed on a little longer than they should have and who were able to get that 400th or 500th home run, or that 3000th hit, or that 300th win, who were not all that special in their twilight years. But they were special to the fans, especially to the kids who grew up watching them. I think that players like Jeter certainly benefit from baseball mythology. And to me, that's perfectly fine. Baseball is better, in my opinion, when legends and heroes stay on their pedestals. It's good for kids and fans to have heroes. For many kids growing up from 1995-2005 or so, Jeter was their hero. That status gives him a little extra push that other similarly metric-ed players might not receive.
kevin
I went to college in New England and formed friendships with mant sox fans. I also watch lots of baseball and more than just Yankees games.
I always felt there were a lot of parallels between Jeter and Dustin Pedroia in that they had the good stats but that didn’t really reveal just how good they really were.
And it could be something stupid like the team just gave up some runs in the top of the third to make it a 2-2 game and he (either guy) leads off the next inning with a double, comes around to score and regain the lead and the team wins 5-2. It goes in the books as a single and run but it was a ‘big hit’ or an ‘answer back’ at a critical point in a game that maybe didn’t determine it’s outcome but helped swing in game momentum. You don’t see that show up, necessarily and with full impact, on a stat sheet. Yes there are metrics that serve to isolate some of it but I have always found it better and more interesting to watch the games, instead.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Sox fan and yes now I can appreciate Jeter. The scale of Gold Gloves is my challenge and will always be the challenge….nobody can tell me that he deserved them all.
WPA favors HR's and RBI's over Hits and Batting Average IMHO.
If analyze the career Post Season WPA leaders https://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/Playoffs_batting.shtml
You will see everyone in the top 10 produced excellent HR and RBI totals.
Jeter was the lead-off hitter in vast majority of his post season games. A lead off hitter's Job is to get on base so he may score runs. Jeter had 200 Post-Season Hits in 650 at-bats. That is excellent during the regular season but in post-season against the best best starting pitching it's superb.
If you look at the WPA for 2000 when Jeter was WS MVP it's really not that high. But yet ask any who watched those games especially NY Met's fans and they will tell you without Jeter the Yankees probably (or definitely) do not win.
You will also find that late 1990's-2001 Braves Fans, Mets Fans, Padre Fans, Rangers Fans, Oakland Fans , Red Sox Fans, despise Jeter. Part of that is due to his high level of play in the post season.
Jeter is career leader in many vital (especially for lead-off hitter) non Power related post-season categories:
Hits
Doubles
Total Bases
Runs
Jeter's job hitting leadoff in post-season games was to get get on-base and start potential rallies he that did time and time again. Just as Fans's of the teams I mentioned above will attest.
Look at the numbers all you want to prove me differently - fine, however be aware that it will never change the legend and the perception of his post-season career. A post-season career Mike Trout will never have even though he is on a team that has the 2 mathematically "best" players in the game.
P.S. As a small counter point here is something i've been saying for over decade: Without Jeter the 1996-2009 Yankees probably still win 3 of their 5 Championships. Without Mariano Rivera they perhaps win 1 of 5?
The Angels still win 0 World's Series Championships from 2011-2021 with or without Mike Trout. They also still win 0 Post Season Games in that time frame with or without Mike Trout. Is Trout to blame? Certainly not. However the sad fact of his lack of single post-season game victory remains.
Future generations will recall Trout no better than current day folks recall Ernie Banks but at least Ernie is known to younger folk for "Let's Play Two". Seems to me Trout in lieu of a post season resume had better come up with a catchy witty saying, as his walk enhanced mathematical metrics without a Championship will be forgotten by most a few years after his career ends.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Agree with most of what is being said. Mike Trout's postseason career is concerning and problematic. That loss to KC on home ice will always stand out to me. Jeter's inside-out swing to crush singles to RF is one of the prettiest things in baseball.
Honestly, the thread about this player that has garnered so much attention does implicitly speak to his greatness
Overall great read.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that Jeter is not a Hall of Famer - he was a great player. However he pales in comparison to many of the other players being mentioned.
I am confused on the current people not knowing who Ernie Banks is without “Let’s Play Two” - I don’t think that saying is huge among the kids. People who study baseball history will know both Jeter and Trout. People who don’t will likely know neither of them 50 years after their last game like it is with Ernie Banks.
You don’t think Jeter gets remembered?
He did have some crossover appeal outside of baseball: he was every girls favorite (famous or not), one of a handful of athletes that have hosted SNL, currently owns the Florida Marlins and is the all time leader in a lot of significant categories for the New York Yankees, many of which will stand for a very long time.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Nitpick: Co-owner with a very tiny piece. His action in that role thus far are not endearing to his overall legacy.
Perhaps Trout will hang on long enough for his contract to expire then pick up a championship with another team. Like Winfield (in 1992), Boggs (who rode a horse) or Molitor (still hitting liners in '93).
Full Disclosure:
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.