What can be done about counterfeits on AliExpress?
Zoins
Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
Can anything that can be done to take down counterfeits on AliExpress?
EDITED: removed screenshot of item.
Tagged:
0
Comments
I'm not sure giving them free advertising is such a good idea.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
What can be done? Nothing.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Removed the screenshot and changed the text.
People can use their imagination now
What if screenshots were collected on a public Flickr album and sent to POTUS and US Congresspeople?
Biden is having a talk with Xi now:
'Healthy debate,' but no breakthroughs in Biden's critical talks with China's Xi Jinping
I doubt that anyone in Congress really cares even though it is illegal and such. It's such a minor issue to them vs the other things they're hoping to accomplish with China. I put that loosely to avoid political things in the thread...
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Hmm, what if we got a new Mint Director that cared?
Does Acting Mint Director (and Chief Administrative Officer) Alison Doone care?
https://www.usmint.gov/about/leadership/chief-administrative-officer
Biden wants to eliminate fossil fuel use in the US while China is building more coal power plants. I doubt fake PCGS holders are going to be high on the list of priorities for discussion.
Yes, but what Biden wants here may not be deliverable by his own party in the Senate.
That being said, there is promise here:
U.S.-China Joint Glasgow Declaration on Enhancing Climate Action in the 2020s
It needs to be a higher level issue like getting China to make counterfeiting of coins older than their government (1949) illegal. China is trying to assert rights of territorial ownership from before 1884 so in theory, they should respect coinage at least that old.
China counterfeits practically everything. Good luck in your quest to get them to stop.
Until Law enforcement or the government feels eliminating counterfeits are a priority (not only coins, but high end consumer goods as well), not much will happen.
Nobel effort, but nobody that can do anything cares to do so.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
stay away from the trouble, youll be better off
I agree with the previous poster. Why would you visit this site? Aren’t there enough reputable sites and dealers to choose from?!
I find great value in being exposed to the best counterfeits available for educational purposes. I'm not a head in the sand kind of guy I guess.
Not for shopping but for education!
nope, ya can't do anything about them
BHNC #203
Caveat Emptor 🤔
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
OK, If you are using the site for education why would you want it taken down?
Is this more idealistic exploration over educational?
I just don’t get the attraction. I tend to avoid aggravation.
Maybe he was looking to buy a halogen bulb.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I’m not sure why AliExpress should be targeted when we have plenty of counterfeiters in America. No one ever wants to talk about those. At least one of them has amassed a group of followers and is a far more dangerous to this hobby than anything from AliExpress.
Run roh.... you might as well have said "cack". Lol
[Although I agree with your main point. I'm not sure why they both shouldn't be viewed the same... whichever way you want to come down on it. ]
Not sure why you're defending counterfeiters, regardless of where they're located. This is a weird stance by you. Are you a BABA bag holder?
To the OP's comment, maybe submit a written complaint to the SEC with printouts of the listings of counterfeit US currency indicating that this publicly traded company is breaking federal law by soliciting the sale of counterfeit US currency on their site. I'm not really sure how BABA was able to be listed on the NYSE as they have a long history and continues to get away with a large percentage of their items being counterfeit or outright fake but that is another conversation.
FYI- If anyone purchases BABA, you don't own any of the company. You own shares in a holding company that loosely follows the actual company. Reason being is the commies don't allow non-Chinese to own shares of many of their "publicly" traded companies. (https://thediplomat.com/2014/09/no-one-who-bought-alibaba-stock-actually-owns-alibaba/)
He's not defending Chinese counterfeiters. He's pointing out the hypocrisy of NOT going after domestic counterfeiters.
It's a false equivalence, not hypocrisy. What's not said explicitly here is that he sees the following as equivalent:
The specific person he's thinking of:
It's hard to see the comparison when viewed form this perspective.
There's a group of people here that have been saying this for years, but haven't gotten anyone of consequence to agree with them, like the Secret Service, Coin Week, ANA, PCGS, etc.
Gee wiz. Why are we playing guess the name? If he’s referring to Carr or Landis he’s kinda being rough. Hobo nickels? For those of us who are new say what you mean. Name names. Mystery is very exclusive and not very informative. Just saying 🙃
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
I'm not sure the poster wants to because that could be seen as making an accusation against our hosts. As mentioned, no organization of consequence, or any organization I can think of, supports the view being proposed.
He has previously discussed the following which have support from PCGS and these are PCGS-hosted forums. See this thread and related certs:
Here's quote from the thread:
These people like to derail conversations like this so counterfeits the Secret Service does go after don't get discussed or covered. Given the lack of support for these arguments for over a decade, it seems like the end result of these discussions is to suppress discussion and action on counterfeits sought by the Secret Service, PCGS, CoinWeek and others. It's hard to say if this is their ultimate goal, but it appears to be the end result.
this i get and thats it
Money flows into China and Americans are cheated. What's not to like for their regime?
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Seems our power or influence over the OP’s alert is limited. This should be PCGS’s fight in which to engage since it is infringing their service mark.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
China counterfeits practically everything.
IIRC, they can even counterfeit their own coins if they were issued prior to 1949
Let's see, the Chinese have been counterfeiting for 10 years of more. Their activity is well documented. The Secret Service appears uninterested in what they are doing.
The only time government will be involved is when it’s coming out of there pockets. Like if you were printing money now that hurts them or bank robbery that hurts because it’s fdic insured by the government other then that it’s your money that is being lost and not the government’s. You can report it to your local police department but it may sit for a while but if you have a friend in the department it may go somewhere or he will tell you don’t waste your time, That’s it in a nut shell.
Hoard the keys.
Nothing will be done about a foreign country counterfeiting coins. The coins can be confiscated once here, though unlikely. We have no jurisdiction over their operations. Sure, we could work the issue at high political levels, however, they have much bigger issues to focus on. Cheers, RickO
Place a 25% tax on all chinese imports and tell them this will stop when the counterfitting stops. There will be those that suffer for lack of cheap goods, but might stop the flow of couchigoods.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Punish people who haven't done anything wrong? That seems reasonable.
The only effective strategy is to remove the demand for the products. That comes through education.
Unfortunately, it's an uphill battle. A sucker is born every minute.
They really do. I spent my work life in capital equipment. You would be amazed at what they copy. The outside of a product might look exactly like a U.S. product, but the inside would not nor could the China product pass any approval agencies in the US or EUROPEAN UNION. They even copied where it was made, I.e. Amherst, Ohio.
There are multiple violators of the HPA and the counterfeiting statutes.
you buy a complete parallel set of your collection, but fake, and commit insurance fraud
that would make a really boring direct-to-dvd movie, I'm feeling Carrot Top would be an appropriate antagonist
The HPA...
CHAPTER 48—HOBBY PROTECTION
§2101. Marking requirements
(b) Coins and other numismatic items
The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked “copy”, is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.].
§2106. Definitions
For purposes of this chapter:
(3) The term “original numismatic item” means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals.
(4) The term “imitation numismatic item” means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item.
Question for the class: If you overstrike a US coin with a date/mm/design that was never used on an original numismatic item, have you created an imitation numismatic item?
Please pull up the old threads for legal discussion - there is nothing new to add and I’m not going to create another 30 page thread on this topic. And the answer to your questions comes down to a federal appeals court decision holding that over striking a genuine U.S. coin does not itself deny an over strike of counterfeit status even when it is of the same type design and denomination (SCOTUS denied review and allowed appeals court ruling to stand) and another case finding that “fantasy” dates do not remove a piece from the ambit of the HPA. And anyone that tells you intent distinguishes the latter for HPA purposes is blatantly lying to you. If you read the entire case, it specifically found the respondents did not have an intent to defraud but still violated it nonetheless.
/legal discussion
This would work if the govt/sec would place some sort of sanction/fine/oversight on BABA for allowing the sale of counterfeit goods/counterfeit US currency on their site. But at the end of the day, the majority of people hurt would be US investors. Still, closing off the flow of funds to the recently "re-educated" Jack Ma, would be a net benefit.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56448688
Where do you think the fentanyl that is causing 100k Americans to die from overdoses in the past 12 months is coming from? It is the 21st century version of Opium wars and no one on DC cares...
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/yearly-drug-overdose-deaths-top-100000-first-time-rcna5656
It sounds like a fair trade to me. The Chinese government would immediately begin going after counterfeiters when it starts affecting the government's bottom line.
AliExpress is like eBay. They don't sell coins or other merchandise but they do provide a venue for others to do so just like eBay. Perhaps we should clean up all the counterfeits being sold on eBay before we worry about AliExpress.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
WOW!
BST references available on request
China does not care. We gave them an open ticket to copy anything.
They know we allow it in our own country. Why should they change.
The battle is lost and few even care to discuss it any longer. It just creates hard feelings between those that have different opinions.
We can't ask China when we can't get our own house in order.
Honestly AE is much tamer now than a couple of years ago and US agencies have put pressure on them; if you notice the "coins" shown there have "COPY" on them at least for appearance sake now and fewer listings than previously.
eBay does remove bad listings when reported and has made strides there in my opinion.
Some of the big movers of these wares are Amazon and ads on FB, which the Anti-Counterfeiting Educational Foundation is spreading the word about along with education, which I agree is key in the effort.
It's not illegal to manufacture a counterfeit US coin and sell it in China. That's under Chinese law. Interestingly it is illegal to manufacture a counterfeit Chinese coin and sell it in China.
What is illegal under US law is the importation of counterfeits unless they are stamped COPY (Hobby Protection Act).
However, think what it would cost to open and inspect every single package coming in from China? Nobody wants the delays and costs that would entail. You would need 1000s of additional customs inspectors, knowledgeable about each class of goods.
The other way to stop it would be for payment processors to refuse to process transactions for these goods. In order to receive the best payment rates for credit cards, the vendor now has to transmit a detailed invoice-type document. But that's imperfect too - what's to stop the seller from calling them "Ornamental Metal objects" instead of "Numismatic coins".
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I wouldn't say this is completely true. My understanding is that in China it is illegal to counterfeit legal tender coins, but not demonetized coins. As in, it is legal to counterfeit coins only before 1949 which is when the current regime took over. This is like saying they have laws to protect commerce but not hobbies. So the classic Chinese coins that are selling for 6+ figures can be legally counterfeited in China, like this one:
Regarding legal tender coins, check out this article on the death penalty being applied to coin counterfeiters in China. A noticeable difference between China and the US is that China is willing to use the death penalty for white collar crimes like counterfeiting coins.
Should the US adopt the death penalty for counterfeiting coins?
http://en.people.cn/english/200007/05/eng20000705_44771.html
What I meant, in context, is that it is illegal to sell counterfeit coins in the US. But good luck trying to get any real teeth in enforcement.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars