$1.6 Million Bitcoin

savitale

OK, I’ll admit that at times I’m a bit of a troglodyte. Let’s say I were to buy this bitcoin from Great Collections.

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1053185

Other than by selling it to another collector in the holder, how would I turn this into real money?

DeplorableDan

The tamper evident hologram on the reverse has a private key underneath that you would use to import the 25 bitcoins into a wallet.

SiriusBlack

@DeplorableDan said:
The tamper evident hologram on the reverse has a private key underneath that you would use to import the 25 bitcoins into a wallet.

Which requires you to crack it out of the holder and essentially destroy it to get the key.
So they're kinda like Schrodinger's cat.

savitale

For $1.6 M, I’ll bet I could find a way through the tamper-evident hologram...

In any case, let’s say I successfully import the bitcoins into a “wallet”. How do I go from there to money?

thebeav

Other than buying stuff, I don't know the answer.
I was wondering where those 25 BTC's are now. When they get called in, won't someone miss them ?

david3142

@thebeav said:
Other than buying stuff, I don't know the answer.
I was wondering where those 25 BTC's are now. When they get called in, won't someone miss them ?

They don’t move. They are in the wallet at the public address. The private key on the coin allows you to access them.

MsMorrisine

@thebeav said:
Other than buying stuff, I don't know the answer.
I was wondering where those 25 BTC's are now. When they get called in, won't someone miss them ?

The person who owns that encapsulated coin is the current owner of the 25 Bitcoin.

Once the coin is purchased the old owner will hopefully get close to market value for the Bitcoin.

The hidden key will allow selling the Bitcoin for $$ if someone wants to do that

jmlanzaf

You could say ask the same things about a $1.6 million gold bar or a 1913 Liberty nickel.

gumby1234

@jmlanzaf said:
You could say ask the same things about a $1.6 million gold bar or a 1913 Liberty nickel.

Yes but we know the answer for those. The OP wants to know how would you turn the digital wallet bitcoins into cash.

jmlanzaf

@gumby1234 said:

@jmlanzaf said:
You could say ask the same things about a $1.6 million gold bar or a 1913 Liberty nickel.

Yes but we know the answer for those. The OP wants to know how would you turn the digital wallet botcoins into cash.

That's not exactly what he asked. He asked what he would do with it other than sell it. Then other people stayed opining about only being able to convert to cash to buy stuff. Hence my answer.

He could redeem the BTC and then reslab the "used" coin. He'd then have the cash and the collectible.

HoldTheMayo

Seems we are being a bit facetious so I'll ask the OP, how do we define money? Whether its seashells, gold coins, or fiat currency, money has to have 4 functions for it to be considered money: medium of exchange, a store of value, a unit of account, and a standard of deferred payment.

Medium of exchange: widely accepted as a method of payment, allows parties to conduct business without having to barter for goods. If I go on SD bullion, can I purchase bullion for bitcoin?

Store of value: Something that serves as a way of preserving economic value that can be spent or consumed in the future. If I gave you 100 bitcoin 10 years ago, would that value have held up till now?

Unit of account: a common way of valuing goods and services, record debts, and make calculations:
This is a weak point for bitcoin, because today it is 60k so you know 1 bitcoin can rough buy you a nice new car, but what about bitcoin price tommorrow? It could drop 5k overnight and you would have to check the price before making a transaction. You always know $1 USD equals $1 USD.

Standard of deferred payment: a standard way of settling debt, aka buy now pay later: if I offer to sell you my car, and am willing to accept future payment of bitcoin to settle that debt, that would be standard of deferred payment.

jmlanzaf

@HoldTheMayo said:
Seems we are being a bit facetious so I'll ask the OP, how do we define money? Whether its seashells, gold coins, or fiat currency, money has to have 4 functions for it to be considered money: medium of exchange, a store of value, a unit of account, and a standard of deferred payment.

Medium of exchange: widely accepted as a method of payment, allows parties to conduct business without having to barter for goods. If I go on SD bullion, can I purchase bullion for bitcoin?

Store of value: Something that serves as a way of preserving economic value that can be spent or consumed in the future. If I gave you 100 bitcoin 10 years ago, would that value have held up till now?

Unit of account: a common way of valuing goods and services, record debts, and make calculations:
This is a weak point for bitcoin, because today it is 60k so you know 1 bitcoin can rough buy you a nice new car, but what about bitcoin price tommorrow? It could drop 5k overnight and you would have to check the price before making a transaction. You always know $1 USD equals $1 USD.

Standard of deferred payment: a standard way of settling debt, aka buy now pay later: if I offer to sell you my car, and am willing to accept future payment of bitcoin to settle that debt, that would be standard of deferred payment.

What's the difference between 2 and 4? Seems redundant.

I'm also not sure what this has to do with the OP's question. By your definition, gold is not "money" or bitcoin is "money" depending on how you define "store of value" and whether "medium of exchange" needs to be immediate.

DeplorableDan

@savitale said:
For $1.6 M, I’ll bet I could find a way through the tamper-evident hologram...

In any case, let’s say I successfully import the bitcoins into a “wallet”. How do I go from there to money?

Bitcoin and other crypto are similar to stocks in the sense that you can buy and sell them on the open market, through an online exchange such as Coinbase or Binance.

derryb

@DeplorableDan said:

@savitale said:
For $1.6 M, I’ll bet I could find a way through the tamper-evident hologram...

In any case, let’s say I successfully import the bitcoins into a “wallet”. How do I go from there to money?

Bitcoin and other crypto are similar to stocks in the sense that you can buy and sell them on the open market, through an online exchange such as Coinbase or Binance.

and that is where the similarity ends. With a stock you own a physical piece of the company that issued it. Hold greater than 50% of the company's stock and you control the company.

With a crypto you have no physical ownership of anything except the hope that you can sell it to the next person for more than you paid. Some cryptos, such as bitcoin, can be exchanged for actual goods or services but only at the exchange rate of the current value of the bitcoin and only through merchants willing to accept them.

I remember reading somewhere that the first transaction involving bitcoin was for delivery of a pizza that cost, back then, a dozen or so bitcoins.

jmlanzaf

@derryb said:

@DeplorableDan said:

@savitale said:
For $1.6 M, I’ll bet I could find a way through the tamper-evident hologram...

In any case, let’s say I successfully import the bitcoins into a “wallet”. How do I go from there to money?

Bitcoin and other crypto are similar to stocks in the sense that you can buy and sell them on the open market, through an online exchange such as Coinbase or Binance.

and that is where the similarity ends. With a stock you own a physical piece of the company that issued it. Hold greater than 50% of the company's stock and you control the company.

With a crypto you have no physical ownership of anything except the hope that you can sell it to the next person for more than you paid. Some cryptos, such as bitcoin, can be exchanged for actual goods or services but only at the exchange rate of the current value of the bitcoin and only through merchants willing to accept them.

I remember reading somewhere that the first transaction involving bitcoin was for delivery of a pizza that cost, back then, a dozen or so bitcoins.

I slightly disagree. With a stock you own the PROMISE of a physical piece of the company. Go try and collect a desk chair from GM and see how that goes.

In a bankruptcy, stocks are completely worthless and unsecured. Bondholders may get a fraction of their investment back from the bankruptcy proceedings. Stock holders usually get nothing even after liquidation of remaining assets.

And what is your $100 bill other than a promise from the government to enforce its exchange value. Just another promise.

derryb

@jmlanzaf said:

I slightly disagree. With a stock you own the PROMISE of a physical piece of the company. Go try and collect a desk chair from GM and see how that goes.

Your stock is your title to your piece of the company net worth, it is not a title to the company's physical assets. It's why you are called a share holder.

In a bankruptcy, stocks are completely worthless and unsecured. Bondholders may get a fraction of their investment back from the bankruptcy proceedings. Stock holders usually get nothing even after liquidation of remaining assets.

Stocks only become worthless because the company became worthless. You still hold title to a piece of nothing.

And what is your $100 bill other than a promise from the government to enforce its exchange value. Just another promise.

I hate to break the bad news to ya but the government does not back the dollar. It cannot force anyone to accept it as payment. The only thing backing a dollar is your faith that the next party will accept it as payment. Your only promise from the government is that you can use it to pay your government debt (taxes).

While a dollar or stock promise carries risk, they carry much less risk than owning cryptos. Cryptos offer no promises, strictly hope.

Disclaimer: I own stocks, dollars and cryptos. Knowing and monitoring the constantly changing risk associated with each is what determines the ultimate outcome of one's investment in each.

HoldTheMayo

@jmlanzaf said:

What's the difference between 2 and 4? Seems redundant.

I'm also not sure what this has to do with the OP's question. By your definition, gold is not "money" or bitcoin is "money" depending on how you define "store of value" and whether "medium of exchange" needs to be immediate.

2 and 4 are independent functions. Can stocks be an investment (future use) and also fixed income (current use)? Yes.
These are nuanced topics, but these 4 functions are the de facto definition of money in economics . And yes onto your second argument currently in 2021 gold is not treated as money; its not treated as a common medium of exchange and you can't use it to settle debt. If I go to Whole foods and offer a gold coin to the cashier for groceries I'll get blank stares.

HoldTheMayo

@jmlanzaf said:

I slightly disagree. With a stock you own the PROMISE of a physical piece of the company. Go try and collect a desk chair from GM and see how that goes.

In a bankruptcy, stocks are completely worthless and unsecured. Bondholders may get a fraction of their investment back from the bankruptcy proceedings. Stock holders usually get nothing even after liquidation of remaining assets.

And what is your $100 bill other than a promise from the government to enforce its exchange value. Just another promise.

Slightly disagree, owning stock is NOT a promise, you DO own a portion of the company...but with limits. You still get voting rights, you still get a say in the direction of the company. Your GM chair argument boils down to common stock vs preferred stock. Common stock is what most people have access to, preferred stock allows you to have access to dividends first, and also if the company goes tits up you get to recoup some of your money via company liquidation. So you can still get your GM chair

cameonut2011

@derryb said:

@DeplorableDan said:

@savitale said:
For $1.6 M, I’ll bet I could find a way through the tamper-evident hologram...

In any case, let’s say I successfully import the bitcoins into a “wallet”. How do I go from there to money?

Bitcoin and other crypto are similar to stocks in the sense that you can buy and sell them on the open market, through an online exchange such as Coinbase or Binance.

and that is where the similarity ends. With a stock you own a physical piece of the company that issued it. Hold greater than 50% of the company's stock and you control the company.

With a crypto you have no physical ownership of anything except the hope that you can sell it to the next person for more than you paid. Some cryptos, such as bitcoin, can be exchanged for actual goods or services but only at the exchange rate of the current value of the bitcoin and only through merchants willing to accept them.

I remember reading somewhere that the first transaction involving bitcoin was for delivery of a pizza that cost, back then, a dozen or so bitcoins.

Exactly. Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are the digital version of Monopoly money.

cameonut2011

@jmlanzaf said:

@derryb said:

@DeplorableDan said:

@savitale said:
For $1.6 M, I’ll bet I could find a way through the tamper-evident hologram...

In any case, let’s say I successfully import the bitcoins into a “wallet”. How do I go from there to money?

Bitcoin and other crypto are similar to stocks in the sense that you can buy and sell them on the open market, through an online exchange such as Coinbase or Binance.

and that is where the similarity ends. With a stock you own a physical piece of the company that issued it. Hold greater than 50% of the company's stock and you control the company.

With a crypto you have no physical ownership of anything except the hope that you can sell it to the next person for more than you paid. Some cryptos, such as bitcoin, can be exchanged for actual goods or services but only at the exchange rate of the current value of the bitcoin and only through merchants willing to accept them.

I remember reading somewhere that the first transaction involving bitcoin was for delivery of a pizza that cost, back then, a dozen or so bitcoins.

I slightly disagree. With a stock you own the PROMISE of a physical piece of the company. Go try and collect a desk chair from GM and see how that goes.

In a bankruptcy, stocks are completely worthless and unsecured. Bondholders may get a fraction of their investment back from the bankruptcy proceedings. Stock holders usually get nothing even after liquidation of remaining assets.

And what is your $100 bill other than a promise from the government to enforce its exchange value. Just another promise.

If you obtain a judgment against GM you could theoretically attach a lien and force the sale of any real or personal property including the chair.

Bankruptcy is a whole different animal. It involves legal proceedings with due process that allow litigation and objections. Bitcoin can go belly up without warning. There’s is no one to sue and no assets to encumber.

The government is different. It has the power to back its fiat money. What is Bitcoin backed by other than speculation and dreams of its “owners?”

jmlanzaf

@derryb said:

@jmlanzaf said:

I slightly disagree. With a stock you own the PROMISE of a physical piece of the company. Go try and collect a desk chair from GM and see how that goes.

Your stock is your title to your piece of the company net worth, it is not a title to the company's physical assets. It's why you are called a share holder.

In a bankruptcy, stocks are completely worthless and unsecured. Bondholders may get a fraction of their investment back from the bankruptcy proceedings. Stock holders usually get nothing even after liquidation of remaining assets.

Stocks only become worthless because the company became worthless. You still hold title to a piece of nothing.

And what is your $100 bill other than a promise from the government to enforce its exchange value. Just another promise.

I hate to break the bad news to ya but the government does not back the dollar. It cannot force anyone to accept it as payment. The only thing backing a dollar is your faith that the next party will accept it as payment. Your only promise from the government is that you can use it to pay your government debt (taxes).

While a dollar or stock promise carries risk, they carry much less risk than owning cryptos. Cryptos offer no promises, strictly hope.

Disclaimer: I own stocks, dollars and cryptos. Knowing and monitoring the constantly changing risk associated with each is what determines the ultimate outcome of one's investment in each.

Legal tender for all debts public or private.

You can't refuse payment in greenbacks.

derryb

@jmlanzaf said:

You can't refuse payment in greenbacks.

sure you can. Happens all the time when a trade is made on the BST.

Being recognized as legal tender is not the same as forcing someone to accept it.

jmlanzaf

@derryb said:

@jmlanzaf said:

You can't refuse payment in greenbacks.

sure you can. Happens all the time when a trade is made on the BST.

Being recognized as legal tender is not the same as forcing someone to accept it.

..

ricko

Interesting discussion.... I do not own any bitcoin.... Though I have watched it with interest. Eventually - sooner rather than later - the government will get involved, and that is rarely a good thing. Cheers, RickO

derryb

@ricko said:
Interesting discussion.... I do not own any bitcoin.... Though I have watched it with interest. Eventually - sooner rather than later - the government will get involved, and that is rarely a good thing. Cheers, RickO

the government is involved each and every time you sell crypto for a profit. Has been this way since the first crypto was sold. Capital gains from the sale of any asset have always been taxable.

Look for regulatory agencies to attempt to hamper crypto trading venues, particularly with it's mouth and not its actions, but it will be in vain.

derryb

@MsMorrisine said:

@thebeav said:
Other than buying stuff, I don't know the answer.
I was wondering where those 25 BTC's are now. When they get called in, won't someone miss them ?

The person who owns that encapsulated coin is the current owner of the 25 Bitcoin.

Once the coin is purchased the old owner will hopefully get close to market value for the Bitcoin.

The hidden key will allow selling the Bitcoin for $$ if someone wants to do that

So says the sales pitch. I suspect there might just be some additional risk associated with this one. Less risk (still some) to just buy 25 Bitcoin outright.

Zoins

@DeplorableDan said:
The tamper evident hologram on the reverse has a private key underneath that you would use to import the 25 bitcoins into a wallet.

If it was found out to be tampered with and unredeemable, would the value be covered by the TPG guarantee?

DeplorableDan

@Zoins said:

@DeplorableDan said:
The tamper evident hologram on the reverse has a private key underneath that you would use to import the 25 bitcoins into a wallet.

If it was found out to be tampered with and unredeemable, would the value be covered by the TPG guarantee?

That’s a good question. My guess would be “no”.

Zoins

@DeplorableDan said:

@Zoins said:

@DeplorableDan said:
The tamper evident hologram on the reverse has a private key underneath that you would use to import the 25 bitcoins into a wallet.

If it was found out to be tampered with and unredeemable, would the value be covered by the TPG guarantee?

That’s a good question. My guess would be “no”.

That would be a shame as it would be nice for the TPG to guarantee this as part of the authentication check as the sticker is responsible for the value. It seems like they could validate the sticker hasn't been tampered with and guarantee that, at least for the ones that grade 70.

cameonut2011

@jmlanzaf said:

@derryb said:

@jmlanzaf said:

I slightly disagree. With a stock you own the PROMISE of a physical piece of the company. Go try and collect a desk chair from GM and see how that goes.

Your stock is your title to your piece of the company net worth, it is not a title to the company's physical assets. It's why you are called a share holder.

In a bankruptcy, stocks are completely worthless and unsecured. Bondholders may get a fraction of their investment back from the bankruptcy proceedings. Stock holders usually get nothing even after liquidation of remaining assets.

Stocks only become worthless because the company became worthless. You still hold title to a piece of nothing.

And what is your $100 bill other than a promise from the government to enforce its exchange value. Just another promise.

I hate to break the bad news to ya but the government does not back the dollar. It cannot force anyone to accept it as payment. The only thing backing a dollar is your faith that the next party will accept it as payment. Your only promise from the government is that you can use it to pay your government debt (taxes).

While a dollar or stock promise carries risk, they carry much less risk than owning cryptos. Cryptos offer no promises, strictly hope.

Disclaimer: I own stocks, dollars and cryptos. Knowing and monitoring the constantly changing risk associated with each is what determines the ultimate outcome of one's investment in each.

Legal tender for all debts public or private.

You can't refuse payment in greenbacks.

Also not exactly true. Private entities (as opposed to the government) can refuse to accept cash. In the not so distant past, some gas stations wouldn't accept $50 or $100 bills. Since they are quickly approaching being the new $20 and $10, some have changed their tune.

derryb

@cameonut2011 said:

The government is different. It has the power to back its fiat money. What is Bitcoin backed by other than speculation and dreams of its “owners?”

The government doesn't back its currency. If it did it would reimburse me for the loss of its purchasing power. In fact, the gov (through it shadow FED reserve bank) is directly responsible for that loss in purchasing power.

The only thing backing any fiat currency is the users' belief/faith that it will continue to be accepted as payment, fully knowing that it loses value over time. As we saw in Zimbabwe and Venezuela that faith can quickly disappear.

derryb

@Zoins said:

If it was found out to be tampered with and unredeemable, would the value be covered by the TPG guarantee?

TPGs guarantee their grade opinion, not the value of the item graded.

cameonut2011

@derryb said:

@cameonut2011 said:

The government is different. It has the power to back its fiat money. What is Bitcoin backed by other than speculation and dreams of its “owners?”

The government doesn't back its currency. If it did it would reimburse me for the loss of its purchasing power. In fact, the gov (through it shadow FED reserve bank) is directly responsible for that loss in purchasing power.

The only thing backing any fiat currency is the users' belief/faith that it will continue to be accepted as payment, fully knowing that it loses value over time.

Let me put it this way: Federal income taxes are a predefined amount of your salary/wages/other income. When it comes time to pay the tax man, he accepts the notes at face value towards that debt. That's worth something. Just like death, income taxes are guaranteed if you're employed. State and local governments must also accept it for income taxes, real estate taxes, sales tax, and personal property taxes.

jmlanzaf

@cameonut2011 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@derryb said:

@jmlanzaf said:

I slightly disagree. With a stock you own the PROMISE of a physical piece of the company. Go try and collect a desk chair from GM and see how that goes.

Your stock is your title to your piece of the company net worth, it is not a title to the company's physical assets. It's why you are called a share holder.

In a bankruptcy, stocks are completely worthless and unsecured. Bondholders may get a fraction of their investment back from the bankruptcy proceedings. Stock holders usually get nothing even after liquidation of remaining assets.

Stocks only become worthless because the company became worthless. You still hold title to a piece of nothing.

And what is your $100 bill other than a promise from the government to enforce its exchange value. Just another promise.

I hate to break the bad news to ya but the government does not back the dollar. It cannot force anyone to accept it as payment. The only thing backing a dollar is your faith that the next party will accept it as payment. Your only promise from the government is that you can use it to pay your government debt (taxes).

While a dollar or stock promise carries risk, they carry much less risk than owning cryptos. Cryptos offer no promises, strictly hope.

Disclaimer: I own stocks, dollars and cryptos. Knowing and monitoring the constantly changing risk associated with each is what determines the ultimate outcome of one's investment in each.

Legal tender for all debts public or private.

You can't refuse payment in greenbacks.

Also not exactly true. Private entities (as opposed to the government) can refuse to accept cash. In the not so distant past, some gas stations wouldn't accept $50 or $100 bills. Since they are quickly approaching being the new $20 and $10, some have changed their tune.

fine, then you can't refuse payments of debts in greenbacks.

But all that does is make greenbacks less robust and closer to BTC.

All money relies to some extent on the faith of the public to accept it or the enforcement of the government.

cameonut2011

@jmlanzaf said:
All money relies to some extent on the faith of the public to accept it or the enforcement of the government.

Bingo. We agree and therein lies the difference.

derryb

@cameonut2011 said:

Let me put it this way: Federal income taxes are a predefined amount of your salary/wages/other income. When it comes time to pay the tax man, he accepts the notes at face value towards that debt. That's worth something. Just like death, income taxes are guaranteed if you're employed. State and local governments must also accept it for income taxes, real estate taxes, sales tax, and personal property taxes.

As I stated earlier this is your only guarantee:

"I hate to break the bad news to ya but the government does not back the dollar. It cannot force anyone to accept it as payment. The only thing backing a dollar is your faith that the next party will accept it as payment. Your only promise from the government is that you can use it to pay your government debt (taxes)."

derryb

@jmlanzaf said:

All money relies to some extent on the faith of the public to accept it or the enforcement of the government.

All fiat money relies entirely on the faith of the public to accept it. There is not and likely never will be enforcement of acceptance by the government. When and if the government forces acceptance, our financial system has finally failed.

cameonut2011

@derryb said:

@cameonut2011 said:

Let me put it this way: Federal income taxes are a predefined amount of your salary/wages/other income. When it comes time to pay the tax man, he accepts the notes at face value towards that debt. That's worth something. Just like death, income taxes are guaranteed if you're employed. State and local governments must also accept it for income taxes, real estate taxes, sales tax, and personal property taxes.

As I stated earlier this is your only guarantee:

"I hate to break the bad news to ya but the government does not back the dollar. It cannot force anyone to accept it as payment. The only thing backing a dollar is your faith that the next party will accept it as payment. Your only promise from the government is that you can use it to pay your government debt (taxes)."

And others accept because Uncle Sam requires greenbacks and they too deal with the tax man (i.e. there is at least some value with backing there and the notes have gained currency - pun intended).

jmlanzaf

@derryb said:

@jmlanzaf said:

All money relies to some extent on the faith of the public to accept it or the enforcement of the government.

All fiat money relies entirely on the faith of the public to accept it. There is not and likely never will be enforcement of acceptance by the government. When and if the government forces acceptance, our financial system has finally failed.

There is minimal enforcement by the government. And they could choose to enforce it more robustly. But, again, you are making my point if you include gold with the greenbacks. There is no support of value for gold nor any requirement that anyone accept it.

cameonut2011

What is to keep anyone from creating alternate coins? Why couldn't I create a cameonutcoin? And if I could attract a mass of followers ( ), how would it differ from Bitcoin or the others? And if it is the same concept, then how is it different than electronic Monopoly money?

jmlanzaf

@cameonut2011 said:

@jmlanzaf said:
All money relies to some extent on the faith of the public to accept it or the enforcement of the government.

Bingo. We agree and therein lies the difference.

I never felt we disagreed that much. If the public prefers BTC, it replaces greenbacks regardless of its digital nature.

jmlanzaf

@cameonut2011 said:

@derryb said:

@cameonut2011 said:

Let me put it this way: Federal income taxes are a predefined amount of your salary/wages/other income. When it comes time to pay the tax man, he accepts the notes at face value towards that debt. That's worth something. Just like death, income taxes are guaranteed if you're employed. State and local governments must also accept it for income taxes, real estate taxes, sales tax, and personal property taxes.

As I stated earlier this is your only guarantee:

"I hate to break the bad news to ya but the government does not back the dollar. It cannot force anyone to accept it as payment. The only thing backing a dollar is your faith that the next party will accept it as payment. Your only promise from the government is that you can use it to pay your government debt (taxes)."

And others accept because Uncle Sam requires greenbacks and they too deal with the tax man (i.e. there is at least some value with backing there and the notes have gained currency - pun intended).

I think you'd have to include courts along with the IRS. That is the "private debts" piece, is it not?

derryb

@cameonut2011 said:

And others accept because Uncle Sam requires greenbacks and they too deal with the tax man (i.e. there is at least some value with backing there and the notes have gained currency - pun intended).

Others accept your dollars only as long as they believe they can pass them on in trade. As failing currencies have demonstrated numerous times, as that belief declines so does the value of the currency being traded.

cameonut2011

@derryb said:

@cameonut2011 said:

And others accept because Uncle Sam requires greenbacks and they too deal with the tax man (i.e. there is at least some value with backing there and the notes have gained currency - pun intended).

Others accept your dollars only as long as they believe they can pass them on in trade. As failing currencies have demonstrated numerous times, as that belief declines so does the value of the currency being traded.

So why is Bitcoin "special?" Because it has been around the longest? Why not the NORFED people?

Zoins

@derryb said:

@Zoins said:

If it was found out to be tampered with and unredeemable, would the value be covered by the TPG guarantee?

TPGs guarantee their grade opinion, not the value of the item graded.

How do you value the TPG grade opinion? I thought it was tied to value of the TPG grade vs. later discovered grade, e.g. putty with gold.

In this case, I imagine the TPG guarantee would cover whether the sticker was tampered with, since tampering would mean PMD and that the piece is not gradeable.

earlyAurum

The interesting thing is will anyone pay a premium over intrinsic value. With the 10% BP and the price of Bitcoin very volatile, i would be reluctant to bid anything over 90% of spot bitcoin until the last few minutes. This could have a negative outcome for the seller unless the BP was negotiated down significantly. I don't 160k premium in the asset.

derryb

@jmlanzaf said:
I think you'd have to include courts along with the IRS. That is the "private debts" piece, is it not?

All courts are government courts and they decree monetary punishment using the widely accepted form of payment - dollars. There is nothing to prevent the person being punished from paying the penalty with other assets, he only has to convert it to the widely accepted (and court determined method of payment) to pay the penalty. The courts could just as easily said (as they did in ancient times) "your penalty is three cows."

We use dollars because that is what our government provided as a means of barter and it is what is widely accepted as a form of payment. Watch the dollar's value go to near zero (Zimbabawe?) and you will see sudden, new methods of barter. This is your proof that the government does not currently enforce the acceptance of dollars.

cameonut2011

@Zoins said:

@derryb said:

@Zoins said:

If it was found out to be tampered with and unredeemable, would the value be covered by the TPG guarantee?

TPGs guarantee their grade opinion, not the value of the item graded.

How do you value the TPG grade opinion? I thought it was tied to value of the TPG grade vs. later discovered grade, e.g. putty with gold.

In this case, I imagine the TPG guarantee would cover whether the sticker was tampered with, since tampering would mean PMD and that the piece is not gradeable.

You forget that the TPGs do whatever they want and the guarantee comes with a loop hole so wide you could drive a dump truck through it. TPGs decide if they made an error, the nature of the remedy, and the true value of the item. You could make an argument that it is a chunk of bullion.

Zoins

@cameonut2011 said:

@Zoins said:

@derryb said:

@Zoins said:

If it was found out to be tampered with and unredeemable, would the value be covered by the TPG guarantee?

TPGs guarantee their grade opinion, not the value of the item graded.

How do you value the TPG grade opinion? I thought it was tied to value of the TPG grade vs. later discovered grade, e.g. putty with gold.

In this case, I imagine the TPG guarantee would cover whether the sticker was tampered with, since tampering would mean PMD and that the piece is not gradeable.

You forget that the TPGs do whatever they want and the guarantee comes with a loop hole so wide you could drive a dump truck through it. TPGs decide if they made an error, the nature of the remedy, and the true value of the item. You could make an argument that it is a chunk of bullion.

Either way, it would be good to know for sure since a lot of the value is tied to lack of PMD tampering and TPGs cover PMD.

If TPGs didn't want to cover this, it would be good to add to their Grade Guarantee like their caveats for copper.

Zoins

@earlyAurum said:
The interesting thing is will anyone pay a premium over intrinsic value. With the 10% BP and the price of Bitcoin very volatile, i would be reluctant to bid anything over 90% of spot bitcoin until the last few minutes. This could have a negative outcome for the seller unless the BP was negotiated down significantly. I don't 160k premium in the asset.

People are bidding 140% of spot now. It will be interesting to see where this ends up.

derryb

@earlyAurum said:
The interesting thing is will anyone pay a premium over intrinsic value. With the 10% BP and the price of Bitcoin very volatile, i would be reluctant to bid anything over 90% of spot bitcoin until the last few minutes. This could have a negative outcome for the seller unless the BP was negotiated down significantly. I don't 160k premium in the asset.

The intrinsic value of the item under discussion is the value of its gold plating. All other value is a promise. Intrinsic value is what is left after one removes the promises. Dollars, for example, have no intrinsic value other than their value in providing heat when ignited or their value when there is no more toilet paper. All other value to the dollar is faith in the promise that the next guy will accept it as payment and what value he will place upon it.