@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
In my experience after having spent the last several years working a retail store front, my opinion on the matter is that the hobby is currently at a point of greatest potential expansion. This is due to a couple of factors.
First and foremost, there is a new generation of collectors coming on board, both young and old. Older individuals are retiring from their longtime careers and picking up the hobby, starting almost right where they left off as kids growing up. Young numismatists are cropping up among the youngest generation, those kids aged about 8 to 12 years old and their reasons for getting into the hobby are better derived from looking at how video games are enjoyed or why dinosaurs are liked by so many.
I bring up dinosaurs because of the studies that show kids who like the ancient reptiles end up being smarter, earning higher scores on tests, going into fields of science, math, and engineering. At the same time, those kids love to impress their parents, teachers, and other adults with their knowledge about the subject. Kids getting into coins is practically the same thing, especially when you stop to consider that the parents' generation is the millennial generation. Millennials grew up watching the Internet go from being a dial-up phone connection to a smartphone in their pocket, and they're always eager and focused on the next big thing. Digital payments have been a big part of the digitization of modern culture, thus as noted above, millennials are using less and less cash. Along with being strapped for money to invest in hobbies, which is another factor. The children of millennials are already born in this increasingly digital world and are inversely attracted to physical, tangible objects. When they see round, shiny objects, they learn about them, and then learn some more, and then have knowledge to impress their parents just as they might learning and talking about dinosaurs.
On the video game front, it's not just about collecting the games themselves which has become a recent trend. The act of playing a game is conducive to collecting because video games often task or at least encourage the player with collecting something. Coins and tokens are common collectibles in games, but this collectible can take any form from Pokemon to gems to ribbons, you name it. Players collect digital objects in video games the same way numismatists collect physical coins, it's a virtual stepping stone.
The important task for established collectors like ourselves is to cater to this growth, to encourage the new collector, to pass on the information and skills we have learned onto the next generation. Teach them not to just flip, but to learn the history of coins, the thrill of the hunt, how knowledge can lead to exciting discoveries in die varieties, in errors, toning, and archiving the most tangible format any culture can exist in.
It's worth taking the time to invest in the next generation.
This. JM and I have gone around (friendly) about this and he sees the 18 and up crowd and I raise an 8 year old. I repeat again the younger generation understands value and therefore this hobby is right up their alley 😉
@Randoms said:
Where is the future of coin collection going? Allow me to paint a picture. Coin collecting skews toward older collectors. Coins are an advanced hobby. You typically need more income to play in the pool. This requires you to be more established. It will probably always be this way.
However; more coin content is being put in front of people. Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. Younger people are being exposed to coins and starting to create content.
The past couple years people have taken to hobbies. Trading cards, comic books, video games, etc. This exposes them to grading, population reports, the things that most our hobbies have now.
What if some of these people decide to move into the coin hobby? New collectors, flippers. If they look at the pop reports. Realize that old holders, OGH, ANACS soapboxes, doilies, can be hard to find. They start posting content that brings more people to the hobby.
Coin prices have risen. What if this is just the beginning? What if this is the start of a new breed of people in the coin hobby?
I agree with most of the above, except that increases in coin prices are / have been selective. I can rattle off a list of many coins, some of them five figure coins, which have lost value in the last thirty years
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@jmlanzaf said:
You don't need a lot of money to collect coins. You only need a lot of money to collect expensive coins. There are a lot of interesting coins that are under $5. 10x as many under $20.
How many interesting antebellum coins in decent condition fit that criteria? You couldn't even collect ASEs at the price point.
They know about rare coins. Crypto is always referring to "a store of value" comparison with gold/ precious metals. They are aware of other investments.
The trick is to get them educated before running the dealer gauntlet.
Just replied to a thread asking about what "coins people are invested in" on a board where crypto is heavily discussed... I posted a photo of the 1794 first dollar as a bait... Im curious to see if any of the crypto guys bite on real coins...
Material under $100 - $300 has potential (affordability) but coins (return wise) have not been competitive with my stock investments let alone my dividend income. My take - Young people will be more likely buying books on how make money on equities. The conversion costs so much less in equity vs numismatics too.
However quality slabbed bullion coins near melt and low pop slabbed world coins (so underpriced vs US) have good potential as part of a combo equities / numismatic portfolio.
Yes billionaires will still be getting in bidding wars on big ticket stuff but these guys probably more rarer than the coins.
The topic is new collectors coming (or not) into the hobby. Antebellum coins, five figure coins, 1794 dollars... in what world are these the kinds of coins those new to the hobby start out with?
@jmlanzaf said:
You don't need a lot of money to collect coins. You only need a lot of money to collect expensive coins. There are a lot of interesting coins that are under $5. 10x as many under $20.
How many interesting antebellum coins in decent condition fit that criteria? You couldn't even collect ASEs at the price point.
Why do I need to collect antebellum coins?
I have 80 to 90 pounds of coin 10 feet from where I'm sitting that I would sell you for $8 per pound. It includes 19th century coins, though not necessarily US coins.
You can buy a lot of large cents for under $20. They just won't be gem uncs.
I just sold 20 dresses quarters, 19 ofv then for under $20. Most have some damage.
Again, you can collect coins cheaply. You just can't collect expensive coins cheaply.
You can buy uncleaned, unidentified ancient coins for $5 or less. I've got 140 medieval Italian silver coins here that I paid $3 each for from a Heritage auction.
Chinese cash coins, ancient through 19th century can be had for under $5.
@MasonG said:
The topic is new collectors coming (or not) into the hobby. Antebellum coins, five figure coins, 1794 dollars... in what world are these the kinds of coins those new to the hobby start out with?
Asking for a friend...
Well they COULD start there... lol
I spent $50,000 buying an estate of a guy who never graduated from junk. Till the day he died, he preferred buying pills of cheap crap to anything good. He had some money. His dealer begged him to buy a couple nice coins. He preferred quantity. My point? You don't EVER have to graduate to high grade antebellum US.
@jmlanzaf said:
You don't need a lot of money to collect coins. You only need a lot of money to collect expensive coins. There are a lot of interesting coins that are under $5. 10x as many under $20.
How many interesting antebellum coins in decent condition fit that criteria? You couldn't even collect ASEs at the price point.
Why do I need to collect antebellum coins?
I have 80 to 90 pounds of coin 10 feet from where I'm sitting that I would sell you for $8 per pound. It includes 19th century coins, though not necessarily US coins.
You can buy a lot of large cents for under $20. They just won't be gem uncs.
I just sold 20 dresses quarters, 19 ofv then for under $20. Most have some damage.
Again, you can collect coins cheaply. You just can't collect expensive coins cheaply.
You can buy uncleaned, unidentified ancient coins for $5 or less. I've got 140 medieval Italian silver coins here that I paid $3 each for from a Heritage auction.
Chinese cash coins, ancient through 19th century can be had for under $5.
There’s a reason this is called the U.S. coin forum. Unless you want to collect state quarters, AG/filler/liner coins, bullion, or low grade Uber common Peace and Morgan Dollars, then it does require a decent capital to buy classic collectible coins. Most collectors are not content with coins worn completely smooth. And no, I am in no way disparaging those who buy these things.
@jmlanzaf said:
You don't need a lot of money to collect coins. You only need a lot of money to collect expensive coins. There are a lot of interesting coins that are under $5. 10x as many under $20.
How many interesting antebellum coins in decent condition fit that criteria? You couldn't even collect ASEs at the price point.
Why do I need to collect antebellum coins?
I have 80 to 90 pounds of coin 10 feet from where I'm sitting that I would sell you for $8 per pound. It includes 19th century coins, though not necessarily US coins.
You can buy a lot of large cents for under $20. They just won't be gem uncs.
I just sold 20 dresses quarters, 19 ofv then for under $20. Most have some damage.
Again, you can collect coins cheaply. You just can't collect expensive coins cheaply.
You can buy uncleaned, unidentified ancient coins for $5 or less. I've got 140 medieval Italian silver coins here that I paid $3 each for from a Heritage auction.
Chinese cash coins, ancient through 19th century can be had for under $5.
@jmlanzaf said:
My point? You don't EVER have to graduate to high grade antebellum US.
Of course not. I've been continuously active in coin collecting for about 60 years and don't own a single high grade antebellum or five figure coin, US or otherwise. A lot of the people who post here are woefully out of touch with what ordinary collectors spend their money on.
@jmlanzaf said:
You don't need a lot of money to collect coins. You only need a lot of money to collect expensive coins. There are a lot of interesting coins that are under $5. 10x as many under $20.
How many interesting antebellum coins in decent condition fit that criteria? You couldn't even collect ASEs at the price point.
Why do I need to collect antebellum coins?
I have 80 to 90 pounds of coin 10 feet from where I'm sitting that I would sell you for $8 per pound. It includes 19th century coins, though not necessarily US coins.
You can buy a lot of large cents for under $20. They just won't be gem uncs.
I just sold 20 dresses quarters, 19 ofv then for under $20. Most have some damage.
Again, you can collect coins cheaply. You just can't collect expensive coins cheaply.
You can buy uncleaned, unidentified ancient coins for $5 or less. I've got 140 medieval Italian silver coins here that I paid $3 each for from a Heritage auction.
Chinese cash coins, ancient through 19th century can be had for under $5.
There’s a reason this is called the U.S. coin forum. Unless you want to collect state quarters, AG/filler/liner coins, bullion, or low grade Uber common Peace and Morgan Dollars, then it does require a decent capital to buy classic collectible coins. Most collectors are not content with coins worn completely smooth. And no, I am in no way disparaging those who buy these things.
Not meaning to be difficult, but the OP mentioned "coin collecting" not "US coin collecting".
The $50k collection I mentioned was mostly US but it was all low grade, often problem coins. You might not personally like those low end coins, but there is a reason why they sell. It is for the collectors that don't have money for even $100 coins.
I’m the king of my castle. Your correct, the hobby of kings. Mine thing is silver. Can’t afford gold. I am as average as you can get $25 - $100 I can put together once a month. I’m very happy
@jmlanzaf said:
My point? You don't EVER have to graduate to high grade antebellum US.
Of course not. I've been continuously active in coin collecting for about 60 years and don't own a single high grade antebellum or five figure coin, US or otherwise. A lot of the people who post here are woefully out of touch with what ordinary collectors spend their money on.
I said it for them, not you. We've discussed this before based on our ebay experiences. I've been on ebay for 23 years. I've sold $2 million in coins and stamps. In all that time, I've sold TWO $10k coins and a total of maybe a dozen over $5000.
Most years my AVERAGE sale is $7 to $10 per coin, even including the $100 and up coins.
@jmlanzaf said:
I said it for them, not you. We've discussed this before based on our ebay experiences. I've been on ebay for 23 years. I've sold $2 million in coins and stamps. In all that time, I've sold TWO $10k coins and a total of maybe a dozen over $5000.
Most years my AVERAGE sale is $7 to $10 per coin, even including the $100 and up coins.
I understand that. I was just posting in support of your message.
My eBay selling experience pretty much mirrors yours, I've been there for 23 years too. My sales are near $1 million, with a handful (less than 10) over $1,000 and most around $10 or so.
@jmlanzaf said:
But, again, why do they need the physical coin? If they are comfortable with digital assets, they don't need or necessarily want the physical asset.
Don't know how that (digital assets) works, but if the people paying for them are happy with them, I can't see where anybody else's opinion matters.
@Mr_Spud said:
I dunno. Maybe some of them would like to have the physical slabbed one too, but maybe not.
They might. But the "threat" to collecting is the possibility that the younger generation doesn't care about physical artifacts.
I'm on a committee at my college. There is an ongoing argument between people who want more artifacts in the museum and people, like me, who are raising the possibility of replacing the artifacts with enhanced VR versions of the artifacts. In the long run, I'm convinced that museums will become fully virtual with full sensory interaction. [See "Ready Player One".] To ignore that possibility is to insist on a pair phone book and a paper newspaper.
A lot of people on this forum think that a fully digital currency will never happen. But for most 18 year olds, they already have a fully virtual currency.
Whenever we discuss this, we invariably are trying to graft our traditional love of the physical onto a future that doesn't require it.
For the crypto guys I think you need to equate coin ownership with ownership of actual art - not digital art... They collect digital art for one of two reasons, 1) they think it will go up in value; or 2) they get to brag to their friends.
These guys still drive cars and have homes... they require physical items as well. They need art to hang on their walls,
If coins were akin to art - then I think it would be much easier to sell them on collecting.
Since they also enjoy bragging, they might want some high-end special coins to display in their homes.
And the crypto market is one of follow the leader. If Elon started tweeting about coins he just bought, you can bet there would be a lot of people who follow him would start looking at buying coins.
@TonerGuy said:
For the crypto guys I think you need to equate coin ownership with ownership of actual art - not digital art... They collect digital art for one of two reasons, 1) they think it will go up in value; or 2) they get to brag to their friends.
These guys still drive cars and have homes... they require physical items as well. They need art to hang on their walls,
If coins were akin to art - then I think it would be much easier to sell them on collecting.
Since they also enjoy bragging, they might want some high-end special coins to display in their homes.
And the crypto market is one of follow the leader. If Elon started tweeting about coins he just bought, you can bet there would be a lot of people who follow him would start looking at buying coins.
Trophy coins are not the coin market. You can push the price of 1804 dollars to $50 million at the same time that 65 Morgans drop to melt. That's exactly what happened to the stamp market.
@TonerGuy said:
For the crypto guys I think you need to equate coin ownership with ownership of actual art - not digital art... They collect digital art for one of two reasons, 1) they think it will go up in value; or 2) they get to brag to their friends.
These guys still drive cars and have homes... they require physical items as well. They need art to hang on their walls,
If coins were akin to art - then I think it would be much easier to sell them on collecting.
Since they also enjoy bragging, they might want some high-end special coins to display in their homes.
And the crypto market is one of follow the leader. If Elon started tweeting about coins he just bought, you can bet there would be a lot of people who follow him would start looking at buying coins.
Trophy coins are not the coin market. You can push the price of 1804 dollars to $50 million at the same time that 65 Morgans drop to melt. That's exactly what happened to the stamp market.
You missed the last sentence of my statement. You should read all of it. Not everyone can buy a Tesla either but Elon certainly did make electric cars more popular...
Millennial here. No Instagram or Facebook for me. Twitter is ok though. Been collecting since the mid-1990s when I was in elementary school. No collectors in the family - started with seeing an Ike for the first time - caught the bug from there.
It’s a hobby - if prices go up, collecting is popular and exciting, if prices go down, I get to buy more of what I want.
The stereotypes about millennials (and other generations) are a bit played out at this point. FWIW, many of us millennials are still trying to figure out blockchain, crypto and NFTs - it’s not native to us either. Wide range of opinions out there - be careful with the stereotypes!
@J2035 said:
Millennial here. No Instagram or Facebook for me. Twitter is ok though. Been collecting since the mid-1990s when I was in elementary school. No collectors in the family - started with seeing an Ike for the first time - caught the bug from there.
It’s a hobby - if prices go up, collecting is popular and exciting, if prices go down, I get to buy more of what I want.
Great post!
The stereotypes about millennials (and other generations) are a bit played out at this point. FWIW, many of us millennials are still trying to figure out blockchain, crypto and NFTs - it’s not native to us either. Wide range of opinions out there - be careful with the stereotypes!
It's a very exciting time in this space. Imagine buying a $5000 coin and turning it into $50 million in 10 years?
J2035. Thanks for your post. There certainly can be problems painting with a wide brush. Older folks have time to post and your very busy doing life. Doesn’t mean you are not there just not as active posting. Your voice is appreciated 😉
@TonerGuy said:
For the crypto guys I think you need to equate coin ownership with ownership of actual art - not digital art... They collect digital art for one of two reasons, 1) they think it will go up in value; or 2) they get to brag to their friends.
These guys still drive cars and have homes... they require physical items as well. They need art to hang on their walls,
If coins were akin to art - then I think it would be much easier to sell them on collecting.
Since they also enjoy bragging, they might want some high-end special coins to display in their homes.
And the crypto market is one of follow the leader. If Elon started tweeting about coins he just bought, you can bet there would be a lot of people who follow him would start looking at buying coins.
Trophy coins are not the coin market. You can push the price of 1804 dollars to $50 million at the same time that 65 Morgans drop to melt. That's exactly what happened to the stamp market.
You missed the last sentence of my statement. You should read all of it. Not everyone can buy a Tesla either but Elon certainly did make electric cars more popular...
No, I read it all.
But, again, another example of people trying to rationalize a reason for their desired outcome to be the logical outcome.
@J2035 said:
Millennial here. No Instagram or Facebook for me. Twitter is ok though. Been collecting since the mid-1990s when I was in elementary school. No collectors in the family - started with seeing an Ike for the first time - caught the bug from there.
It’s a hobby - if prices go up, collecting is popular and exciting, if prices go down, I get to buy more of what I want.
The stereotypes about millennials (and other generations) are a bit played out at this point. FWIW, many of us millennials are still trying to figure out blockchain, crypto and NFTs - it’s not native to us either. Wide range of opinions out there - be careful with the stereotypes!
It's not a "stereotype". It is the general sociological trend. There are men who knit. That doesn't mean that the general fact (stereotype?) that most knitters are women is untrue.
The FACT is that numerous studies show that (on average) millenials and post-millenials are more interested in experiences and less interested in possessions. Your personal anecdote doesn't alter that fact one bit.
There are still people who collect stamps, even young people. That doesn't alter the FACT that stamp collecting has waned in recent generations.
@J2035 said:
Millennial here. No Instagram or Facebook for me. Twitter is ok though. Been collecting since the mid-1990s when I was in elementary school. No collectors in the family - started with seeing an Ike for the first time - caught the bug from there.
It’s a hobby - if prices go up, collecting is popular and exciting, if prices go down, I get to buy more of what I want.
The stereotypes about millennials (and other generations) are a bit played out at this point. FWIW, many of us millennials are still trying to figure out blockchain, crypto and NFTs - it’s not native to us either. Wide range of opinions out there - be careful with the stereotypes!
It's not a "stereotype". It is the general sociological trend. There are men who knit. That doesn't mean that the general fact (stereotype?) that most knitters are women is untrue.
The FACT is that numerous studies show that (on average) millenials and post-millenials are more interested in experiences and less interested in possessions. Your personal anecdote doesn't alter that fact one bit.
There are still people who collect stamps, even young people. That doesn't alter the FACT that stamp collecting has waned in recent generations.
Link the studies. You cite them every time but I’ve yet to see credible data on the makeup of coin buyers and numismatists. You could cite ANA membership, forum participation, auction company customer bases, but there would be holes in all of those datasets.
While there are long term trends - increasing average marriage age, fewer births, etc., you’ve yet to show compelling data on numismatics evidencing such a change.
Edited to add: I would appreciate if your data sources also account for the fact that as people age interest change. Many collectors take a pause while raising kids for instance and many don’t find collecting until later in life. Doesn’t mean the hobby is dying.
@J2035 said:
Millennial here. No Instagram or Facebook for me. Twitter is ok though. Been collecting since the mid-1990s when I was in elementary school. No collectors in the family - started with seeing an Ike for the first time - caught the bug from there.
It’s a hobby - if prices go up, collecting is popular and exciting, if prices go down, I get to buy more of what I want.
The stereotypes about millennials (and other generations) are a bit played out at this point. FWIW, many of us millennials are still trying to figure out blockchain, crypto and NFTs - it’s not native to us either. Wide range of opinions out there - be careful with the stereotypes!
It's not a "stereotype". It is the general sociological trend. There are men who knit. That doesn't mean that the general fact (stereotype?) that most knitters are women is untrue.
The FACT is that numerous studies show that (on average) millenials and post-millenials are more interested in experiences and less interested in possessions. Your personal anecdote doesn't alter that fact one bit.
There are still people who collect stamps, even young people. That doesn't alter the FACT that stamp collecting has waned in recent generations.
Link the studies. You cite them every time but I’ve yet to see credible data on the makeup of coin buyers and numismatists. You could cite ANA membership, forum participation, auction company customer bases, but there would be holes in all of those datasets.
While there are long term trends - increasing average marriage age, fewer births, etc., you’ve yet to show compelling data on numismatics evidencing such a change.
Actually, I've posted several of them before. More below. These marketing studies are done constantly as a means of understanding what is important to GROUPS of consumers. Again, they are statistical norms not universal properties of all individuals in the group.
@J2035 said:
Millennial here. No Instagram or Facebook for me. Twitter is ok though. Been collecting since the mid-1990s when I was in elementary school. No collectors in the family - started with seeing an Ike for the first time - caught the bug from there.
It’s a hobby - if prices go up, collecting is popular and exciting, if prices go down, I get to buy more of what I want.
The stereotypes about millennials (and other generations) are a bit played out at this point. FWIW, many of us millennials are still trying to figure out blockchain, crypto and NFTs - it’s not native to us either. Wide range of opinions out there - be careful with the stereotypes!
It's not a "stereotype". It is the general sociological trend. There are men who knit. That doesn't mean that the general fact (stereotype?) that most knitters are women is untrue.
The FACT is that numerous studies show that (on average) millenials and post-millenials are more interested in experiences and less interested in possessions. Your personal anecdote doesn't alter that fact one bit.
There are still people who collect stamps, even young people. That doesn't alter the FACT that stamp collecting has waned in recent generations.
Link the studies. You cite them every time but I’ve yet to see credible data on the makeup of coin buyers and numismatists. You could cite ANA membership, forum participation, auction company customer bases, but there would be holes in all of those datasets.
While there are long term trends - increasing average marriage age, fewer births, etc., you’ve yet to show compelling data on numismatics evidencing such a change.
There's only one study on "Numismatics" that I've ever seen. Most studies are about material possessions and general accumulation of material possessions.
Could you cite a study that shows the opposite: that millenials and Gen Z are equally likely to collect as Boomers and Gen X?
We get briefed on these trends every year. It is part of our recruitment and retention efforts for students. I've seen little to no disagreement in the literature or among experts over the general trend. A trend, by the way, that is arguable a very GOOD thing: less consumerism and less materialism.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
Mostly in the US. But the Boomer generations was a gigantic population bubble. And this is the US coin forum. Poor people in undeveloped countries do not collect anything much less US coins.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
Mostly in the US. But the Boomer generations was a gigantic population bubble. And this is the US coin forum. Poor people in undeveloped countries do not collect anything much less US coins.
Yes, but all the US needs to do to increase population is adjust immigration and those people's incomes will increase. If the US can be seen as the land of opportunity as it was for previous generations and those people value American history, they will will be more likely to collect US coins.
Regarding your post on US colleges, it's interesting to note many US colleges are already dependent on, and reserve seats for, foreign students because they tend to pay full tuition rates.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
Mostly in the US. But the Boomer generations was a gigantic population bubble. And this is the US coin forum. Poor people in undeveloped countries do not collect anything much less US coins.
Yes, but all the US needs to do to increase population is adjust immigration and those people's incomes will increase. If the US can be seen as the land of opportunity as it was for previous generations and those people value American history, they will will be more likely to collect US coins.
Regarding your post on US colleges, it's interesting to note many US colleges are already dependent on, and reserve seats for, foreign students because they tend to pay full tuition rates.
Yes, we do.
But when a Nicaraguan student grows up, do you think they collect US coins or Nicaraguan coins?
Again, any outcome is possible. I'm not sure why, however, everyone just wants to assume that trends continue. Is it coincidental that the boom in coin prices occurred when baby boomers came of age in a boning post war economy? Neither of those trends is continuing.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
Mostly in the US. But the Boomer generations was a gigantic population bubble. And this is the US coin forum. Poor people in undeveloped countries do not collect anything much less US coins.
Yes, but all the US needs to do to increase population is adjust immigration and those people's incomes will increase. If the US can be seen as the land of opportunity as it was for previous generations and those people value American history, they will will be more likely to collect US coins.
Regarding your post on US colleges, it's interesting to note many US colleges are already dependent on, and reserve seats for, foreign students because they tend to pay full tuition rates.
Yes, we do.
But when a Nicaraguan student grows up, do you think they collect US coins or Nicaraguan coins?
US first followed by Nicaraguan, but US by a mile. I've seen this in both immigrants and future generations. Many immigrants are thankful to be in the US.
Again, any outcome is possible. I'm not sure why, however, everyone just wants to assume that trends continue. Is it coincidental that the boom in coin prices occurred when baby boomers came of age in a boning post war economy? Neither of those trends is continuing.
The Baby Boomers affect every market they touch, including classic muscle cars and elderly care. I don't think people are discounting them, just discussing potential alternate possibilities.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
Mostly in the US. But the Boomer generations was a gigantic population bubble. And this is the US coin forum. Poor people in undeveloped countries do not collect anything much less US coins.
Yes, but all the US needs to do to increase population is adjust immigration and those people's incomes will increase. If the US can be seen as the land of opportunity as it was for previous generations and those people value American history, they will will be more likely to collect US coins.
Regarding your post on US colleges, it's interesting to note many US colleges are already dependent on, and reserve seats for, foreign students because they tend to pay full tuition rates.
Yes, we do.
But when a Nicaraguan student grows up, do you think they collect US coins or Nicaraguan coins?
US.
Again, any outcome is possible. I'm not sure why, however, everyone just wants to assume that trends continue. Is it coincidental that the boom in coin prices occurred when baby boomers came of age in a boning post war economy? Neither of those trends is continuing.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
Mostly in the US. But the Boomer generations was a gigantic population bubble. And this is the US coin forum. Poor people in undeveloped countries do not collect anything much less US coins.
Yes, but all the US needs to do to increase population is adjust immigration and those people's incomes will increase. If the US can be seen as the land of opportunity as it was for previous generations and those people value American history, they will will be more likely to collect US coins.
Regarding your post on US colleges, it's interesting to note many US colleges are already dependent on, and reserve seats for, foreign students because they tend to pay full tuition rates.
Yes, we do.
But when a Nicaraguan student grows up, do you think they collect US coins or Nicaraguan coins?
US.
Again, any outcome is possible. I'm not sure why, however, everyone just wants to assume that trends continue. Is it coincidental that the boom in coin prices occurred when baby boomers came of age in a boning post war economy? Neither of those trends is continuing.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
Mostly in the US. But the Boomer generations was a gigantic population bubble. And this is the US coin forum. Poor people in undeveloped countries do not collect anything much less US coins.
Yes, but all the US needs to do to increase population is adjust immigration and those people's incomes will increase. If the US can be seen as the land of opportunity as it was for previous generations and those people value American history, they will will be more likely to collect US coins.
Regarding your post on US colleges, it's interesting to note many US colleges are already dependent on, and reserve seats for, foreign students because they tend to pay full tuition rates.
Yes, we do.
But when a Nicaraguan student grows up, do you think they collect US coins or Nicaraguan coins?
US.
Again, any outcome is possible. I'm not sure why, however, everyone just wants to assume that trends continue. Is it coincidental that the boom in coin prices occurred when baby boomers came of age in a boning post war economy? Neither of those trends is continuing.
Lol. Nicaraguan.
It's not true. I know from personal experience
Anecdote. Lol
Why is a US-Mexico soccer game in Los Angeles a home game for Mexico?
People tend to collect their heritage not someone else's.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
Mostly in the US. But the Boomer generations was a gigantic population bubble. And this is the US coin forum. Poor people in undeveloped countries do not collect anything much less US coins.
Yes, but all the US needs to do to increase population is adjust immigration and those people's incomes will increase. If the US can be seen as the land of opportunity as it was for previous generations and those people value American history, they will will be more likely to collect US coins.
Regarding your post on US colleges, it's interesting to note many US colleges are already dependent on, and reserve seats for, foreign students because they tend to pay full tuition rates.
Yes, we do.
But when a Nicaraguan student grows up, do you think they collect US coins or Nicaraguan coins?
US.
Again, any outcome is possible. I'm not sure why, however, everyone just wants to assume that trends continue. Is it coincidental that the boom in coin prices occurred when baby boomers came of age in a boning post war economy? Neither of those trends is continuing.
Lol. Nicaraguan.
It's not true. I know from personal experience
Anecdote. Lol
Why is a US-Mexico soccer game in Los Angeles a home game for Mexico?
I'm waiting for your study
People tend to collect their heritage not someone else's.
The thing about America, is that the US is the heritage for these immigrants. The only peoples that is different from the others are the Native Americans, and I do agree they are less likely to collect US coins, but people from every other area are the same in their desire to leave their country for a better life.
Look at German-Americans which celebrated German-American Day from 1883 to 1914 when they were forced to stop celebrating and even speaking their language in America, to when it was celebrated again from 1983 forward.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
Mostly in the US. But the Boomer generations was a gigantic population bubble. And this is the US coin forum. Poor people in undeveloped countries do not collect anything much less US coins.
Yes, but all the US needs to do to increase population is adjust immigration and those people's incomes will increase. If the US can be seen as the land of opportunity as it was for previous generations and those people value American history, they will will be more likely to collect US coins.
Regarding your post on US colleges, it's interesting to note many US colleges are already dependent on, and reserve seats for, foreign students because they tend to pay full tuition rates.
Yes, we do.
But when a Nicaraguan student grows up, do you think they collect US coins or Nicaraguan coins?
US.
Again, any outcome is possible. I'm not sure why, however, everyone just wants to assume that trends continue. Is it coincidental that the boom in coin prices occurred when baby boomers came of age in a boning post war economy? Neither of those trends is continuing.
Lol. Nicaraguan.
It's not true. I know from personal experience
Anecdote. Lol
Why is a US-Mexico soccer game in Los Angeles a home game for Mexico?
I'm waiting for your study
People tend to collect their heritage not someone else's.
The thing about America, that it is their heritage.
Look at German-Americans which celebrated German-American Day from 1883 to 1914 when they were forced to stop celebrating and even speaking their language in America, to when it was celebrated again from 1983 forward.
The international students you were referring to tend to go home. The reason they pay full tuition is often because their government pays it for them. They are not necessarily immigrants.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
Mostly in the US. But the Boomer generations was a gigantic population bubble. And this is the US coin forum. Poor people in undeveloped countries do not collect anything much less US coins.
Yes, but all the US needs to do to increase population is adjust immigration and those people's incomes will increase. If the US can be seen as the land of opportunity as it was for previous generations and those people value American history, they will will be more likely to collect US coins.
Regarding your post on US colleges, it's interesting to note many US colleges are already dependent on, and reserve seats for, foreign students because they tend to pay full tuition rates.
Yes, we do.
But when a Nicaraguan student grows up, do you think they collect US coins or Nicaraguan coins?
US.
Again, any outcome is possible. I'm not sure why, however, everyone just wants to assume that trends continue. Is it coincidental that the boom in coin prices occurred when baby boomers came of age in a boning post war economy? Neither of those trends is continuing.
Lol. Nicaraguan.
It's not true. I know from personal experience
Anecdote. Lol
Why is a US-Mexico soccer game in Los Angeles a home game for Mexico?
I'm waiting for your study
People tend to collect their heritage not someone else's.
The thing about America, that it is their heritage.
Look at German-Americans which celebrated German-American Day from 1883 to 1914 when they were forced to stop celebrating and even speaking their language in America, to when it was celebrated again from 1983 forward.
The international students you were referring to tend to go home. The reason they pay full tuition is often because their government pays it for them. They are not necessarily immigrants.
You're responding to my post on German-Americans who have been here since 1683. Do they tend to go home? I know German-born immigrants in America today who did not go back to Germany after their degree.
The people who attended graduate school in the US I know, primarily want to stay in the US. The ones that leave do so primarily because they don't get a visa. For example, I know of an Apple engineer who had to leave the US after failing to get a H1B lottery 3 times. Ask him where he'd rather be.
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
Mostly in the US. But the Boomer generations was a gigantic population bubble. And this is the US coin forum. Poor people in undeveloped countries do not collect anything much less US coins.
Yes, but all the US needs to do to increase population is adjust immigration and those people's incomes will increase. If the US can be seen as the land of opportunity as it was for previous generations and those people value American history, they will will be more likely to collect US coins.
Regarding your post on US colleges, it's interesting to note many US colleges are already dependent on, and reserve seats for, foreign students because they tend to pay full tuition rates.
Yes, we do.
But when a Nicaraguan student grows up, do you think they collect US coins or Nicaraguan coins?
US.
Again, any outcome is possible. I'm not sure why, however, everyone just wants to assume that trends continue. Is it coincidental that the boom in coin prices occurred when baby boomers came of age in a boning post war economy? Neither of those trends is continuing.
Lol. Nicaraguan.
It's not true. I know from personal experience
Anecdote. Lol
Why is a US-Mexico soccer game in Los Angeles a home game for Mexico?
I'm waiting for your study
People tend to collect their heritage not someone else's.
The thing about America, that it is their heritage.
Look at German-Americans which celebrated German-American Day from 1883 to 1914 when they were forced to stop celebrating and even speaking their language in America, to when it was celebrated again from 1983 forward.
The international students you were referring to tend to go home. The reason they pay full tuition is often because their government pays it for them. They are not necessarily immigrants.
You're responding to my post on German-Americans who have been here since 1683. Do they tend to go home? I know German-born immigrants in America today who did not go back to Germany after their degree.
The people who attended graduate school in the US I know, primarily want to stay in the US. The ones that leave do so primarily because they don't get a visa. For example, I know of an Apple engineer who had to leave the US after failing to get a H1B lottery 3 times. Ask him where he'd rather be.
Please cite your study
I'm referring to the current international students you mentioned earlier.
I've quoted a dozen studies. Someone posit a study demonstrating the opposite.
Comments
Many here have turned a coin into cash that turns into groceries. So a drachma would fit. 🙃
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
This. JM and I have gone around (friendly) about this and he sees the 18 and up crowd and I raise an 8 year old. I repeat again the younger generation understands value and therefore this hobby is right up their alley 😉
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
I agree with most of the above, except that increases in coin prices are / have been selective. I can rattle off a list of many coins, some of them five figure coins, which have lost value in the last thirty years
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
How many interesting antebellum coins in decent condition fit that criteria? You couldn't even collect ASEs at the price point.
How many beginning yns start with coins like that?
Just replied to a thread asking about what "coins people are invested in" on a board where crypto is heavily discussed... I posted a photo of the 1794 first dollar as a bait... Im curious to see if any of the crypto guys bite on real coins...
Material under $100 - $300 has potential (affordability) but coins (return wise) have not been competitive with my stock investments let alone my dividend income. My take - Young people will be more likely buying books on how make money on equities. The conversion costs so much less in equity vs numismatics too.
However quality slabbed bullion coins near melt and low pop slabbed world coins (so underpriced vs US) have good potential as part of a combo equities / numismatic portfolio.
Yes billionaires will still be getting in bidding wars on big ticket stuff but these guys probably more rarer than the coins.
The topic is new collectors coming (or not) into the hobby. Antebellum coins, five figure coins, 1794 dollars... in what world are these the kinds of coins those new to the hobby start out with?
Asking for a friend...
Very likely.
Quite possibly especially if the collector starts later in life (I.e. likely with a higher income).
Why do I need to collect antebellum coins?
I have 80 to 90 pounds of coin 10 feet from where I'm sitting that I would sell you for $8 per pound. It includes 19th century coins, though not necessarily US coins.
You can buy a lot of large cents for under $20. They just won't be gem uncs.
I just sold 20 dresses quarters, 19 ofv then for under $20. Most have some damage.
Again, you can collect coins cheaply. You just can't collect expensive coins cheaply.
You can buy uncleaned, unidentified ancient coins for $5 or less. I've got 140 medieval Italian silver coins here that I paid $3 each for from a Heritage auction.
Chinese cash coins, ancient through 19th century can be had for under $5.
Well they COULD start there... lol
I spent $50,000 buying an estate of a guy who never graduated from junk. Till the day he died, he preferred buying pills of cheap crap to anything good. He had some money. His dealer begged him to buy a couple nice coins. He preferred quantity. My point? You don't EVER have to graduate to high grade antebellum US.
There’s a reason this is called the U.S. coin forum. Unless you want to collect state quarters, AG/filler/liner coins, bullion, or low grade Uber common Peace and Morgan Dollars, then it does require a decent capital to buy classic collectible coins. Most collectors are not content with coins worn completely smooth. And no, I am in no way disparaging those who buy these things.
On second thought… But did they sticker? 😈
Of course not. I've been continuously active in coin collecting for about 60 years and don't own a single high grade antebellum or five figure coin, US or otherwise. A lot of the people who post here are woefully out of touch with what ordinary collectors spend their money on.
Maybe I’m just a bit out of touch. Historically though numismatics has been referred to as the hobby of kings.
Not meaning to be difficult, but the OP mentioned "coin collecting" not "US coin collecting".
The $50k collection I mentioned was mostly US but it was all low grade, often problem coins. You might not personally like those low end coins, but there is a reason why they sell. It is for the collectors that don't have money for even $100 coins.
I got started by filling holes in a Whitman folder with pennies out of circulation. Can't speak for how kings do it.
edited to add...
nu·mis·mat·ics
/ˌn(y)o͞oməzˈmadiks/
noun
the study or collection of coins, paper currency, and medals.
"Study OR collection"
Just sayin'.
I’m the king of my castle. Your correct, the hobby of kings. Mine thing is silver. Can’t afford gold. I am as average as you can get $25 - $100 I can put together once a month. I’m very happy
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
I said it for them, not you. We've discussed this before based on our ebay experiences. I've been on ebay for 23 years. I've sold $2 million in coins and stamps. In all that time, I've sold TWO $10k coins and a total of maybe a dozen over $5000.
Most years my AVERAGE sale is $7 to $10 per coin, even including the $100 and up coins.
I understand that. I was just posting in support of your message.
My eBay selling experience pretty much mirrors yours, I've been there for 23 years too. My sales are near $1 million, with a handful (less than 10) over $1,000 and most around $10 or so.
How about if someone makes a bunch of random NFTs with a slabbed coin image and if they buy the physical slabbed coin they own the NFTs too?
🤔
Of course I really have no idea what an NFT is, or how any of that works. But could something as easy as that work to Market Coins to young people?
Mr_Spud
But, again, why do they need the physical coin? If they are comfortable with digital assets, they don't need or necessarily want the physical asset.
Don't know how that (digital assets) works, but if the people paying for them are happy with them, I can't see where anybody else's opinion matters.
I dunno. Maybe some of them would like to have the physical slabbed one too, but maybe not.
Mr_Spud
They might. But the "threat" to collecting is the possibility that the younger generation doesn't care about physical artifacts.
I'm on a committee at my college. There is an ongoing argument between people who want more artifacts in the museum and people, like me, who are raising the possibility of replacing the artifacts with enhanced VR versions of the artifacts. In the long run, I'm convinced that museums will become fully virtual with full sensory interaction. [See "Ready Player One".] To ignore that possibility is to insist on a pair phone book and a paper newspaper.
A lot of people on this forum think that a fully digital currency will never happen. But for most 18 year olds, they already have a fully virtual currency.
Whenever we discuss this, we invariably are trying to graft our traditional love of the physical onto a future that doesn't require it.
For the crypto guys I think you need to equate coin ownership with ownership of actual art - not digital art... They collect digital art for one of two reasons, 1) they think it will go up in value; or 2) they get to brag to their friends.
These guys still drive cars and have homes... they require physical items as well. They need art to hang on their walls,
If coins were akin to art - then I think it would be much easier to sell them on collecting.
Since they also enjoy bragging, they might want some high-end special coins to display in their homes.
And the crypto market is one of follow the leader. If Elon started tweeting about coins he just bought, you can bet there would be a lot of people who follow him would start looking at buying coins.
Trophy coins are not the coin market. You can push the price of 1804 dollars to $50 million at the same time that 65 Morgans drop to melt. That's exactly what happened to the stamp market.
You missed the last sentence of my statement. You should read all of it. Not everyone can buy a Tesla either but Elon certainly did make electric cars more popular...
Millennial here. No Instagram or Facebook for me. Twitter is ok though. Been collecting since the mid-1990s when I was in elementary school. No collectors in the family - started with seeing an Ike for the first time - caught the bug from there.
It’s a hobby - if prices go up, collecting is popular and exciting, if prices go down, I get to buy more of what I want.
The stereotypes about millennials (and other generations) are a bit played out at this point. FWIW, many of us millennials are still trying to figure out blockchain, crypto and NFTs - it’s not native to us either. Wide range of opinions out there - be careful with the stereotypes!
Great post!
It's a very exciting time in this space. Imagine buying a $5000 coin and turning it into $50 million in 10 years?
J2035. Thanks for your post. There certainly can be problems painting with a wide brush. Older folks have time to post and your very busy doing life. Doesn’t mean you are not there just not as active posting. Your voice is appreciated 😉
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
No, I read it all.
But, again, another example of people trying to rationalize a reason for their desired outcome to be the logical outcome.
It's not a "stereotype". It is the general sociological trend. There are men who knit. That doesn't mean that the general fact (stereotype?) that most knitters are women is untrue.
The FACT is that numerous studies show that (on average) millenials and post-millenials are more interested in experiences and less interested in possessions. Your personal anecdote doesn't alter that fact one bit.
There are still people who collect stamps, even young people. That doesn't alter the FACT that stamp collecting has waned in recent generations.
Link the studies. You cite them every time but I’ve yet to see credible data on the makeup of coin buyers and numismatists. You could cite ANA membership, forum participation, auction company customer bases, but there would be holes in all of those datasets.
While there are long term trends - increasing average marriage age, fewer births, etc., you’ve yet to show compelling data on numismatics evidencing such a change.
Edited to add: I would appreciate if your data sources also account for the fact that as people age interest change. Many collectors take a pause while raising kids for instance and many don’t find collecting until later in life. Doesn’t mean the hobby is dying.
Actually, I've posted several of them before. More below. These marketing studies are done constantly as a means of understanding what is important to GROUPS of consumers. Again, they are statistical norms not universal properties of all individuals in the group.
https://theamericangenius.com/business-marketing/millennials-attitudes-towards-possessions-differ-from-other-generations/#:~:text=Millennials’ attitudes towards possessions differ from other generations,their heritage is dramatically different than their predecessors.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/blakemorgan/2019/01/02/nownership-no-problem-an-updated-look-at-why-millennials-value-experiences-over-owning-things/
http://www.okologie.org/blogs/2015/6/23/the-millennial-generation-their-attitudes-social-behavior-religious-independence
http://jbepnet.com/journals/Vol_4_No_2_June_2017/4.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333160976_Factors_Affecting_Millennials'_Attitudes_toward_Luxury_Fashion_Brands_A_Cross-Cultural_Study
https://www.marketingweek.com/millennials-look-for-experiences-over-possessions/
https://www.warc.com/newsandopinion/news/gen_z_is_more_frugal_and_experiencefocused_than_millennials/41136
Referring specifically to hobbies like coin collecting:
https://news.coinupdate.com/predicting-the-future-by-observing-the-past-do-millennials-and-the-greatest-generation-share-common-financial-threads/
There's only one study on "Numismatics" that I've ever seen. Most studies are about material possessions and general accumulation of material possessions.
Could you cite a study that shows the opposite: that millenials and Gen Z are equally likely to collect as Boomers and Gen X?
We get briefed on these trends every year. It is part of our recruitment and retention efforts for students. I've seen little to no disagreement in the literature or among experts over the general trend. A trend, by the way, that is arguable a very GOOD thing: less consumerism and less materialism.
@jmlanzaf
I could cite studies circa 2010 that said millennials were all moving to the cities and the suburbs would die. Didn’t happen. Generations change as they age. You haven’t proven your thesis or shown any actual data regarding numismatics.
Actually, I supplied a lot of data. You are just predisposed to reject all of it.
If I include the fact that the average age of coin collectors is 60, you will argue that they are failing to count the instagram collectors.
https://www.coinagemag.com/a-forecast-for-our-hobby/
If I point to the demographics of the ANA or coin club, you will argue (without proof) that millenials are just eschewing clubs not coins.
The simple, undisputed FACT is that will be fewer millennial coin collectors UNLESS the collector numbers are HIGHER in the millennial group. This is for the simple reason that there are fewer millennials. Colleges are shrinking for this reason and may soon be disappearing in large numbers. Why do you think it is different for coins.
Do I know that this is a long-term problem? No. But I wish to god that all the magical thinking around here would give way to a cold consideration of the POSSIBILITY that trends are real and reflect a challenge. Pretending that those challenges don't exist does no one any favor. As things stand NOW, millenials and Gen Z do not collect artifacts, are more interested in experiences than possessions. Will that change as they age? Maybe. But, you have to admit that it also may NOT.
Are there fewer millenials relative to past generations world wide, or just in the US? Overall, population is still going up.
Mostly in the US. But the Boomer generations was a gigantic population bubble. And this is the US coin forum. Poor people in undeveloped countries do not collect anything much less US coins.
https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth
Yes, but all the US needs to do to increase population is adjust immigration and those people's incomes will increase. If the US can be seen as the land of opportunity as it was for previous generations and those people value American history, they will will be more likely to collect US coins.
Regarding your post on US colleges, it's interesting to note many US colleges are already dependent on, and reserve seats for, foreign students because they tend to pay full tuition rates.
Yes, we do.
But when a Nicaraguan student grows up, do you think they collect US coins or Nicaraguan coins?
Again, any outcome is possible. I'm not sure why, however, everyone just wants to assume that trends continue. Is it coincidental that the boom in coin prices occurred when baby boomers came of age in a boning post war economy? Neither of those trends is continuing.
US first followed by Nicaraguan, but US by a mile. I've seen this in both immigrants and future generations. Many immigrants are thankful to be in the US.
The Baby Boomers affect every market they touch, including classic muscle cars and elderly care. I don't think people are discounting them, just discussing potential alternate possibilities.
Lol. Nicaraguan.
It's not true. I know from personal experience
Anecdote. Lol
Why is a US-Mexico soccer game in Los Angeles a home game for Mexico?
People tend to collect their heritage not someone else's.
I'm waiting for your study
The thing about America, is that the US is the heritage for these immigrants. The only peoples that is different from the others are the Native Americans, and I do agree they are less likely to collect US coins, but people from every other area are the same in their desire to leave their country for a better life.
Look at German-Americans which celebrated German-American Day from 1883 to 1914 when they were forced to stop celebrating and even speaking their language in America, to when it was celebrated again from 1983 forward.
The international students you were referring to tend to go home. The reason they pay full tuition is often because their government pays it for them. They are not necessarily immigrants.
You're responding to my post on German-Americans who have been here since 1683. Do they tend to go home? I know German-born immigrants in America today who did not go back to Germany after their degree.
The people who attended graduate school in the US I know, primarily want to stay in the US. The ones that leave do so primarily because they don't get a visa. For example, I know of an Apple engineer who had to leave the US after failing to get a H1B lottery 3 times. Ask him where he'd rather be.
Please cite your study
I'm referring to the current international students you mentioned earlier.
I've quoted a dozen studies. Someone posit a study demonstrating the opposite.