Seeing as how most CAC threads get axed I would say perhaps there is an unwritten rule! I guess the polite way would have been to just change the topic to Should this coin receive a CAC sticker? Thanks for inspiring the idea, I'll change the title!
@amwldcoin said:
If people can rave about the good, why shouldn't people be able to talk about the bad and the ugly? Should these types be swept under the rug so people can't learn????
@MFeld said:
This is exactly one of the reasons this thread blows for me:
“Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or services are not allowed.”
Because there’s not a rule posted which disallows people raving about the good. If you dislike that so much, perhaps you’d like to propose such a rule to the moderators.
And if your motive was really to help people learn, rather than to bash, you could have easily done so without the bashing,
Unevenly cleaned at that, comparing the obverse image with the reverse image. Initially, I thought that the obverse image looked a little washed-out but the reverse image of the coin shows really washed-out, as what one sees in a "cleaned" coin.I would find worn Barber dimes with this appearance when they came out of the ground after discovering them with my metal detector.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
@amwldcoin said:
If people can rave about the good, why shouldn't people be able to talk about the bad and the ugly? Should these types be swept under the rug so people can't learn????
@MFeld said:
This is exactly one of the reasons this thread blows for me:
“Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or services are not allowed.”
Because there’s not a rule posted which disallows people raving about the good. If you dislike that so much, perhaps you’d like to propose such a rule to the moderators.
And if your motive was really to help people learn, rather than to bash, you could have easily done so without the bashing,
An ancient thread of mine from 2008, same date, similar look.
I'm guessing if I'd asked "will this coin straight grade and sticker", the answer would have been a resounding "no!".
@jmlanzaf said:
This is yet another case of 2 pro grading teams having viewed the coin in hand and agreed on a grade being attacked by people who have only seen a picture.
It appears some people don't actually have to see coins in order to grade them.
Curiously, I see far more detail difference between the 10 and 12 grades than I see between the 12 and 15 grades on that photograde layout. Doesn’t make sense to me. Substitute the OP coin into said photograde layout and it’s closer to accurate, IMO.
@jmlanzaf said:
This is yet another case of 2 pro grading teams having viewed the coin in hand and agreed on a grade being attacked by people who have only seen a picture.
It appears some people don't actually have to see coins in order to grade them.
That's easy to do if your assumption is that CAC is always wrong.
@pmh1nic said:
I think the OP is questioning the idea that the coin is solid for the grade. In my opinion it's borderline on the low side.
PCGS and CAC have seen the coin in hand. Have you? Or the OP?
I don't need to. The lack of detail is evident in the photograph.
Ok- you think you don't need to see a coin in hand to accurately grade it. Got it.
In this case no, I don't need to see the coin in hand. Got it?
Pavlovian contrarians rarely get it...
I’m a contrarian when the details don’t justify the grade. This isn’t an issue of a few obscure marks that might differentiate a 64 from 65 but details that are clearly weak for even a 12 and certainly aren’t close to justifying a 15.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@amwldcoin said:
Total lack of originality! Do I really need to tell you that?????
@ChrisH821 said:
What is it about this coin that offends you so much?
It does look a bit washed out, FWIW here is the same image with just the brightness reduced, I think it makes a big difference.
I wouldn't gamble $475 that the coin looks like this and not the original picture, maybe someone here can/would.
@pmh1nic said:
I think the OP is questioning the idea that the coin is solid for the grade. In my opinion it's borderline on the low side.
PCGS and CAC have seen the coin in hand. Have you? Or the OP?
I don't need to. The lack of detail is evident in the photograph.
Ok- you think you don't need to see a coin in hand to accurately grade it. Got it.
In this case no, I don't need to see the coin in hand. Got it?
Pavlovian contrarians rarely get it...
I’m a contrarian when the details don’t justify the grade. This isn’t an issue of a few obscure marks that might differentiate a 64 from 65 but details that are clearly weak for even a 12 and certainly aren’t close to justifying a 15.
You're not the contrarian to whom I was referring. I simply answered your question even though it wasn't posed to me.
Ok, so I did a little research and found a pic of the coin in a previous auction with no glare:
I also compared its price realized of $299 in 2010 to other prices realized:
And then I compared the OP coin to the two coins that exceeded it in price realized:
And I came to the conclusion that even though one should buy what they like based upon their own personal standards, the market has pretty much spoken on the OP coin and even though it might not be an old time solid for the grade F12 from the days of yore, it fits right in these days
@pmh1nic said:
I think the OP is questioning the idea that the coin is solid for the grade. In my opinion it's borderline on the low side.
PCGS and CAC have seen the coin in hand. Have you? Or the OP?
I don't need to. The lack of detail is evident in the photograph.
Ok- you think you don't need to see a coin in hand to accurately grade it. Got it.
In this case no, I don't need to see the coin in hand. Got it?
Pavlovian contrarians rarely get it...
I’m a contrarian when the details don’t justify the grade. This isn’t an issue of a few obscure marks that might differentiate a 64 from 65 but details that are clearly weak for even a 12 and certainly aren’t close to justifying a 15.
@pmh1nic said:
I think the OP is questioning the idea that the coin is solid for the grade. In my opinion it's borderline on the low side.
PCGS and CAC have seen the coin in hand. Have you? Or the OP?
I don't need to. The lack of detail is evident in the photograph.
Ok- you think you don't need to see a coin in hand to accurately grade it. Got it.
In this case no, I don't need to see the coin in hand. Got it?
Pavlovian contrarians rarely get it...
But who is the Pavlovian contrarian? The anti-CACer?
This is yet another case of 2 pro grading teams having viewed the coin in hand and agreed on a grade being attacked by people who have only seen a picture. That seems more like the reflexive contrarian position than the people who said that it looks like the photograde image.
You haven't seen the coin either, yet you reflexively come to the defense of the stickering agency whenever anyone questions them. The OP's point, based on the original thread title, was that he would never consider that coin strong for the grade. Yet you chose to essentially tell him that his personal standards are invalid because they don't exactly align with the anointed authority on high.
@tradedollarnut said:
Ok, so I did a little research and found a pic of the coin in a previous auction with
And then I compared the OP coin to the two coins that exceeded it in price
And I came to the conclusion that even though one should buy what they like based upon their own personal standards, the market has pretty much spoken on the OP coin and even though it might not be an old time solid for the grade F12 from the days of yore, it fits right in these days
Careful. Even after all that research, they'll just call you a contrarian
@amwldcoin said:
If people can rave about the good, why shouldn't people be able to talk about the bad and the ugly? Should these types be swept under the rug so people can't learn????
@MFeld said:
This is exactly one of the reasons this thread blows for me:
“Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or services are not allowed.”
Because there’s not a rule posted which disallows people raving about the good. If you dislike that so much, perhaps you’d like to propose such a rule to the moderators.
And if your motive was really to help people learn, rather than to bash, you could have easily done so without the bashing,
Unless it's been changed, there was a rule against promoting any other company on this forum. It's a bit academic since the rules appear to be selectively enforced in any case.
The original thread title was questionable, but I don't have a problem with the content. YMMV.
@pmh1nic said:
I think the OP is questioning the idea that the coin is solid for the grade. In my opinion it's borderline on the low side.
PCGS and CAC have seen the coin in hand. Have you? Or the OP?
I don't need to. The lack of detail is evident in the photograph.
Ok- you think you don't need to see a coin in hand to accurately grade it. Got it.
In this case no, I don't need to see the coin in hand. Got it?
Pavlovian contrarians rarely get it...
But who is the Pavlovian contrarian? The anti-CACer?
This is yet another case of 2 pro grading teams having viewed the coin in hand and agreed on a grade being attacked by people who have only seen a picture. That seems more like the reflexive contrarian position than the people who said that it looks like the photograde image.
You haven't seen the coin either, yet you reflexively come to the defense of the stickering agency whenever anyone questions them. The OP's point, based on the original thread title, was that he would never consider that coin strong for the grade. Yet you chose to essentially tell him that his personal standards are invalid because they don't exactly align with the anointed authority on high.
No. I told him that in my opinion that coin was a solid B for an F12.
I don't personally like VF Buffalo Nickels that have partial horns. I also recognize that the current standard allows it.
I never said anything about the OPs personal standards. I posted the PCGS photograde picture (research not reflex) and said very specifically that by current market standards it is an F12.
@amwldcoin said:
If people can rave about the good, why shouldn't people be able to talk about the bad and the ugly? Should these types be swept under the rug so people can't learn????
@MFeld said:
This is exactly one of the reasons this thread blows for me:
“Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or services are not allowed.”
Because there’s not a rule posted which disallows people raving about the good. If you dislike that so much, perhaps you’d like to propose such a rule to the moderators.
And if your motive was really to help people learn, rather than to bash, you could have easily done so without the bashing,
Unless it's been changed, there was a rule against promoting any other company on this forum. It's a bit academic since the rules appear to be selectively enforced in any case.
The original thread title was questionable, but I don't have a problem with the content. YMMV.
You’re correct about the “promoting” aspect. As I previously posted for/to the OP:
“Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or services are not allowed.”
I think most posters are capable of complimenting or criticizing grading companies/services, without causing threads to be locked or deleted.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@dogwood said:
One could just as easily pick apart this
I personally disagree that this is a VF.
LIBERTY isn’t “complete”. It’s a
I think it’s been lightly cleaned in the past.
The sticker doesn’t cover all the flaws of the coin inside the slab.
But what’s my point?
If you don't know... lol
The market standard is what it is. We can all dislike it but that doesn't make it right or wrong. We just need to understand it and make our choices based on that understanding.
I'm not sure why that is so controversial all the time.
@pmh1nic said:
I think the OP is questioning the idea that the coin is solid for the grade. In my opinion it's borderline on the low side.
Not according to PCGS photograde.
I see details that could be considered a 12 but weak an leaning more towards a 10 than a 15.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
CACs em all I say, Then we can start another stupid service / sticker that certifies if the slab grade and cacs grade are accurate. LOL oh man CRAZY world.
@tradedollarnut said:
Ok, so I did a little research and found a pic of the coin in a previous auction with no glare:
I also compared its price realized of $299 in 2010 to other prices realized:
And then I compared the OP coin to the two coins that exceeded it in price realized:
And I came to the conclusion that even though one should buy what they like based upon their own personal standards, the market has pretty much spoken on the OP coin and even though it might not be an old time solid for the grade F12 from the days of yore, it fits right in these days
So is this an admission that even CAC has acquiesced in grade inflation? I thought CAC was started to supposedly slow or stop the process rather than giving it a veneer of legitimacy.
In general, aren't Barber halves treated differently because they have been notoriously messed with? Many Barbers have been cleaned via baking soda or dipping and are thus not original, and thus the grading standard loosened to reflect this reality?
@braddick said:
In general, aren't Barber halves treated differently because they have been notoriously messed with? Many Barbers have been cleaned via baking soda or dipping and are thus not original, and thus the grading standard loosened to reflect this reality?
Do they deserve special treatment? CAC justified it for ultra rarities (e.g. graffiti on the Dexter 1804 dollar saying that alone didn’t keep it from stickering). Barbers don’t deserve a free pass. In fact, you could strike out the word “Barber” and insert any antebellum coin series and it would be true. If that’s where the hobby is headed, then we should stop pretending CAC is special. It is like any other market maker and has price propped up by an artificial price floor. It is no different than Eagle Eye, PQ, or even the Rick Tomaska Everest sticker. Maybe it’s time to give the ACG guy some love too?😂
And I came to the conclusion that even though one should buy what they like based upon their own personal standards, the market has pretty much spoken on the OP coin and even though it might not be an old time solid for the grade F12 from the days of yore, it fits right in these days
So which iteration of JA’s standards are sacrosanct? The 1986-1987 and early 1990s variation, the 2007 iteration, or the new found 2020s version?
Maybe today’s “expensive dreck” (to borrow from Laura’s parlance) will be tomorrow’s CAC B- coin with a sticker and will transmute into pinnacle of numismatics and “like a Mercedes” to borrow from another poster.
Well….Let’s just say that I trust the combination of two graders at PCGS, one premier grader at CAC and a market price realized at auction commensurate with price guide over ANY opinion stated on this chat room room
@tradedollarnut said:
Well….Let’s just say that I trust the combination of two graders at PCGS, one premier grader at CAC and a market price realized at auction commensurate with price guide over ANY opinion stated on this chat room room
But you’re deflecting. Obviously professional graders’ opinions carry more weight in the market; HOWEVER, when those expert opinions keep changing and you’re relying on a guarantee when the goal post keeps moving, collectors are justified in being critical and concerned.
Obviously, we need a VG 11 grade. > @cameonut2011 said:
@tradedollarnut said:
Well….Let’s just say that I trust the combination of two graders at PCGS, one premier grader at CAC and a market price realized at auction commensurate with price guide over ANY opinion stated on this chat room room
But you’re deflecting. Obviously professional graders’ opinions carry more weight in the market; HOWEVER, when those expert opinions keep changing and you’re relying on a guarantee when the goal post keeps moving, collectors are justified in being critical and concerned.
Of course the goal post keeps moving - tpg’s are like sharks….keep swimming or die. CAC can slow the process but not stop it. Note that the coins posted in this thread were all graded a decade ago…so if they aren’t seen as upgrades by now then the process has slowed. And yes, it financially harms certain coins at certain times and thus is really annoying…but taken as a snapshot at any given time is irrelevant because quality and pricing has always been a continuum and both still fall on that continuum at any given time
@tradedollarnut said:
Well….Let’s just say that I trust the combination of two graders at PCGS, one premier grader at CAC and a market price realized at auction commensurate with price guide over ANY opinion stated on this chat room room
But you’re deflecting. Obviously professional graders’ opinions carry more weight in the market; HOWEVER, when those expert opinions keep changing and you’re relying on a guarantee when the goal post keeps moving, collectors are justified in being critical and concerned.
Of course the goal post keeps moving - tpg’s are like sharks….keep swimming or die. CAC can slow the process but not stop it. Note that the coins posted in this thread were all graded a decade ago…so if they aren’t seen as upgrades by now then the process has slowed. And yes, it financially harms certain coins at certain times and thus is really annoying…but taken as a snapshot at any given time is irrelevant because quality and pricing has always been a continuum and both still fall on that continuum at any given time
imagine having a business where your entire purpose is to certify & grade coins. then another business opens next door & their sole purpose is to judge whether you graded them correctly or not.
how about CAC2 stickers.. to judge if CAC did their job correctly.
@tradedollarnut said:
Well….Let’s just say that I trust the combination of two graders at PCGS, one premier grader at CAC and a market price realized at auction commensurate with price guide over ANY opinion stated on this chat room room
But you’re deflecting. Obviously professional graders’ opinions carry more weight in the market; HOWEVER, when those expert opinions keep changing and you’re relying on a guarantee when the goal post keeps moving, collectors are justified in being critical and concerned.
Of course the goal post keeps moving - tpg’s are like sharks….keep swimming or die. CAC can slow the process but not stop it. Note that the coins posted in this thread were all graded a decade ago…so if they aren’t seen as upgrades by now then the process has slowed. And yes, it financially harms certain coins at certain times and thus is really annoying…
If the coin market was regulated like the stock market or most other investments, there would be prosecutions for fraud. If X warranties an item as being “A” and not “B” and suddenly change the definition such that “Bs” are now “As” to gain money and avoid warranty claims, then it sounds like X is perilously coming close to fraud assuming it isn’t actual fraud.
Edited: To be clear there is no CAC warranty or guarantee, but CAC’s complicity adds a false veneer of legitimacy to the detriment of collectors and investors alike.
@tradedollarnut said:
Well….Let’s just say that I trust the combination of two graders at PCGS, one premier grader at CAC and a market price realized at auction commensurate with price guide over ANY opinion stated on this chat room room
But you’re deflecting. Obviously professional graders’ opinions carry more weight in the market; HOWEVER, when those expert opinions keep changing and you’re relying on a guarantee when the goal post keeps moving, collectors are justified in being critical and concerned.
Of course the goal post keeps moving - tpg’s are like sharks….keep swimming or die. CAC can slow the process but not stop it. Note that the coins posted in this thread were all graded a decade ago…so if they aren’t seen as upgrades by now then the process has slowed. And yes, it financially harms certain coins at certain times and thus is really annoying…
If the coin market was regulated like the stock market or most other investments, there would be prosecutions for fraud. If X warranties an item as being “A” and not “B” and suddenly change the definition such that “Bs” are now “As” to gain money and avoid warranty claims, then it sounds like X is perilously coming close to fraud assuming it isn’t actual fraud.
Grading is an art, not a science. A coin company warrants it’s grading to its standard at the time of grading - nothing more, nothing less. Show me one thing in writing where a tpg claims its current standards are set in stone forever.
@braddick said:
In general, aren't Barber halves treated differently because they have been notoriously messed with? Many Barbers have been cleaned via baking soda or dipping and are thus not original, and thus the grading standard loosened to reflect this reality?
Do they deserve special treatment? CAC justified it for ultra rarities (e.g. graffiti on the Dexter 1804 dollar saying that alone didn’t keep it from stickering). Barbers don’t deserve a free pass. In fact, you could strike out the word “Barber” and insert any antebellum coin series and it would be true. If that’s where the hobby is headed, then we should stop pretending CAC is special. It is like any other market maker and has price propped up by an artificial price floor. It is no different than Eagle Eye, PQ, or even the Rick Tomaska Everest sticker. Maybe it’s time to give the ACG guy some love too?😂
Bingo! Gold doesn't get a free pass at CAC even though it has been "notoriously messed with".
While I acknowledge that CAC has done a lot of good for collectors and the hobby, I would respect it a lot more if it would publish detailed and specific standards. Until then, these arguments are fairly meaningless because they cannot be remotely objective.
It is implied that there is a set standard and that any warranty claims are judged and adjudicated by that standard (at least of the time of warranty). If the standard/goal post keeps moving and those new standards keep superseding old standards and used to evaluate future warranty claims then it is all a game of smoke and mirrors to divert money from collectors. A standardless standard is no standard at all. And contrary to your suggestion, I’m not referring to a few items at the fringes. When there is mass movement in standards of obviously very different quality items, you can’t hide behind subjectivity.
Bingo! Gold doesn't get a free pass at CAC even though it has been "notoriously messed with".
While I acknowledge that CAC has done a lot of good for collectors and the hobby, I would respect it a lot more if it would publish detailed and specific standards. Until then, these arguments are fairly meaningless because they cannot be remotely objective.
@CoinCoins said:
imagine having a business where your entire purpose is to certify & grade coins. then another business opens next door & their sole purpose is to judge whether you graded them correctly or not.
how about CAC2 stickers.. to judge if CAC did their job correctly.
CAC’s entire purpose isn’t to “certify and grade coins”. A major part of their business it to trade coins. And they're on record as stating that their failure to sticker a coin doesn’t necessarily indicate it’s incorrectly graded.
If someone wants to start a “CAC2”, they should go for it. However that would require more than a little bit of expertise, financial backing, integrity and respect among experts - enough so, that it’s not going to happen.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Bingo! Gold doesn't get a free pass at CAC even though it has been "notoriously messed with".
While I acknowledge that CAC has done a lot of good for collectors and the hobby, I would respect it a lot more if it would publish detailed and specific standards. Until then, these arguments are fairly meaningless because they cannot be remotely objective.
I presume you beg to differ that "CAC has done a lot of good for collectors"? Perhaps I should have said that it has done a lot of good for many collectors. I've pointed out what I consider the negative aspects of CAC over the years, but I do respect JA as a legitimate authority, and appreciate that he has been generous with his time and knowledge to educate many users of his service. It's not a black and white situation in my mind.
EDIT: If you actually were arguing that gold does get a free pass, I would simply say that generally it does not, even though specific coins may contradict that thesis.
For all those that think my beef with the coin is the details for a F are wrong. My beef is the coin is far from original, even with the darken pictures it looks cleaned to me. I've submitted enough Barbers over the years to see PCGS relax their standards around cleaned coins. I haven't submitted many coins like this but every time I did it came back details cleaned. So my beef on this coin is with PCGS also.
My BIG BEEF with CAC on this coin is how it is harped that a coin must be totally unmessed with to get the bean. This coin is far from that!
@dogwood My opinion is that 20 is acceptably recovered as far as cleaning goes. I'm a firm believer that somewhere in the 90% range of all Mid-Grade Barbers were lightened up some way or another in the 50's and early 60's. The key is weather it was allowed to retone over the years. Why don't you post up the reverse? You know Liberty on many of the early dates didn't strike up well! The surfaces on the 20 are far better the 12 I posted. If you look at the PCGS grading pictures Liberty is not complete until VF25.
For those that didn't notice, The grading pictures posted in this thread are of a quarter!
@tradedollarnut The 2 coins you post are far more original than the coin in question. The 96-S happens to be a very tough coin to find in F. The prices are going up! I could probably sell 10 pieces right now if they have the look of the 2 you posted.
My BIG BEEF with CAC on this coin is how it is harped that a coin must be totally unmessed with to get the bean. This coin is far from that!
CAC has never said, implied or practiced that. Your “BIG BEEF” (which, by the way, I think would be a fantastic name for a fast food sandwich😉) should be with people who say that, not with CAC.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@pmh1nic said:
I think the OP is questioning the idea that the coin is solid for the grade. In my opinion it's borderline on the low side.
PCGS and CAC have seen the coin in hand. Have you? Or the OP?
I don't need to. The lack of detail is evident in the photograph.
Ok- you think you don't need to see a coin in hand to accurately grade it. Got it.
In this case no, I don't need to see the coin in hand. Got it?
Pavlovian contrarians rarely get it...
But who is the Pavlovian contrarian? The anti-CACer?
This is yet another case of 2 pro grading teams having viewed the coin in hand and agreed on a grade being attacked by people who have only seen a picture. That seems more like the reflexive contrarian position than the people who said that it looks like the photograde image.
Sometimes the pros get it wrong. No one is being “attacked”. Some are questioning the opinion of those pros you default to. We frequent hear the phrase solid for the grade or high end for the grade. In this case some feel the coin is marginal for the grade and more in line with a 10. No attack, no assault, just an expression of a difference of opinion.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I always order a Big Beef Sandwich if given the option over a small Beef sandwich!
I rank the coins in my sets based on eye appeal, originality, etc. on a scale of 1-10. If I give a coin a 10 I feel there is not another coin that can improve it unless it is undergraded. If I give it a 7 I am not actively trying to replace it but will if one falls in my lap. Anything under 7 and I am actively trying to improve the look for what ever reason. I give this coin a 3! If this coin is JA's A or B coin they are doing a disservice to collectors of Barber's IMHO.
You do know I have PCGS Graded Barber Halve sets complete that I have been actively improving for a decade in the grades of F12,F15,VF20,VF25,VF30,VF35,XF40,XF45, + AU58.
Perhaps a BarberNut Bean is on the horizon akin to the eagle eye for Indians!
My BIG BEEF with CAC on this coin is how it is harped that a coin must be totally unmessed with to get the bean. This coin is far from that!
CAC has never said, implied or practiced that. Your “BIG BEEF” (which, by the way, I think would be a fantastic name for a fast food sandwich😉) should be with people who say that, not with CAC.
My BIG BEEF with CAC on this coin is how it is harped that a coin must be totally unmessed with to get the bean. This coin is far from that!
CAC has never said, implied or practiced that. Your “BIG BEEF” (which, by the way, I think would be a fantastic name for a fast food sandwich😉) should be with people who say that, not with CAC.
It would have helped to be clear about your "big beef" at the beginning.
My BIG BEEF with CAC on this coin is how it is harped that a coin must be totally unmessed with to get the bean. This coin is far from that!
CAC has never said, implied or practiced that. Your “BIG BEEF” (which, by the way, I think would be a fantastic name for a fast food sandwich😉) should be with people who say that, not with CAC.
It would have helped to be clear about your "big beef" at the beginning.
Comments
Seeing as how most CAC threads get axed I would say perhaps there is an unwritten rule! I guess the polite way would have been to just change the topic to Should this coin receive a CAC sticker? Thanks for inspiring the idea, I'll change the title!
Unevenly cleaned at that, comparing the obverse image with the reverse image. Initially, I thought that the obverse image looked a little washed-out but the reverse image of the coin shows really washed-out, as what one sees in a "cleaned" coin.I would find worn Barber dimes with this appearance when they came out of the ground after discovering them with my metal detector.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1065431/how-long-should-it-take#latest
An ancient thread of mine from 2008, same date, similar look.
I'm guessing if I'd asked "will this coin straight grade and sticker", the answer would have been a resounding "no!".
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/637596/barber-half-experts-a-question-of-value#latest
It appears some people don't actually have to see coins in order to grade them.
Obviously, we need a VG 11 grade.
Curiously, I see far more detail difference between the 10 and 12 grades than I see between the 12 and 15 grades on that photograde layout. Doesn’t make sense to me. Substitute the OP coin into said photograde layout and it’s closer to accurate, IMO.
That's easy to do if your assumption is that CAC is always wrong.
I’m a contrarian when the details don’t justify the grade. This isn’t an issue of a few obscure marks that might differentiate a 64 from 65 but details that are clearly weak for even a 12 and certainly aren’t close to justifying a 15.
It does look a bit washed out, FWIW here is the same image with just the brightness reduced, I think it makes a big difference.
I wouldn't gamble $475 that the coin looks like this and not the original picture, maybe someone here can/would.
Collector, occasional seller
You're not the contrarian to whom I was referring. I simply answered your question even though it wasn't posed to me.
Ok, so I did a little research and found a pic of the coin in a previous auction with no glare:
I also compared its price realized of $299 in 2010 to other prices realized:
And then I compared the OP coin to the two coins that exceeded it in price realized:
And I came to the conclusion that even though one should buy what they like based upon their own personal standards, the market has pretty much spoken on the OP coin and even though it might not be an old time solid for the grade F12 from the days of yore, it fits right in these days
Look at the photograde pictures.
You haven't seen the coin either, yet you reflexively come to the defense of the stickering agency whenever anyone questions them. The OP's point, based on the original thread title, was that he would never consider that coin strong for the grade. Yet you chose to essentially tell him that his personal standards are invalid because they don't exactly align with the anointed authority on high.
Careful. Even after all that research, they'll just call you a contrarian
Unless it's been changed, there was a rule against promoting any other company on this forum. It's a bit academic since the rules appear to be selectively enforced in any case.
The original thread title was questionable, but I don't have a problem with the content. YMMV.
No. I told him that in my opinion that coin was a solid B for an F12.
I don't personally like VF Buffalo Nickels that have partial horns. I also recognize that the current standard allows it.
I never said anything about the OPs personal standards. I posted the PCGS photograde picture (research not reflex) and said very specifically that by current market standards it is an F12.
You, of course, reflexively took the other side.
You’re correct about the “promoting” aspect. As I previously posted for/to the OP:
“Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or services are not allowed.”
I think most posters are capable of complimenting or criticizing grading companies/services, without causing threads to be locked or deleted.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
One could just as easily pick apart this CAC VF20.
I personally disagree that this is a VF.
LIBERTY isn’t “complete”. It’s a fine 15.
I think it’s been lightly cleaned in the past.
The sticker doesn’t cover all the flaws of the coin inside the slab.
But what’s my point?
If you don't know... lol
The market standard is what it is. We can all dislike it but that doesn't make it right or wrong. We just need to understand it and make our choices based on that understanding.
I'm not sure why that is so controversial all the time.
I see details that could be considered a 12 but weak an leaning more towards a 10 than a 15.
CACs em all I say, Then we can start another stupid service / sticker that certifies if the slab grade and cacs grade are accurate. LOL oh man CRAZY world.
So is this an admission that even CAC has acquiesced in grade inflation? I thought CAC was started to supposedly slow or stop the process rather than giving it a veneer of legitimacy.
In general, aren't Barber halves treated differently because they have been notoriously messed with? Many Barbers have been cleaned via baking soda or dipping and are thus not original, and thus the grading standard loosened to reflect this reality?
peacockcoins
Do they deserve special treatment? CAC justified it for ultra rarities (e.g. graffiti on the Dexter 1804 dollar saying that alone didn’t keep it from stickering). Barbers don’t deserve a free pass. In fact, you could strike out the word “Barber” and insert any antebellum coin series and it would be true. If that’s where the hobby is headed, then we should stop pretending CAC is special. It is like any other market maker and has price propped up by an artificial price floor. It is no different than Eagle Eye, PQ, or even the Rick Tomaska Everest sticker. Maybe it’s time to give the ACG guy some love too?😂
So which iteration of JA’s standards are sacrosanct? The 1986-1987 and early 1990s variation, the 2007 iteration, or the new found 2020s version?
Maybe today’s “expensive dreck” (to borrow from Laura’s parlance) will be tomorrow’s CAC B- coin with a sticker and will transmute into pinnacle of numismatics and “like a Mercedes” to borrow from another poster.
Well….Let’s just say that I trust the combination of two graders at PCGS, one premier grader at CAC and a market price realized at auction commensurate with price guide over ANY opinion stated on this chat room room
oh brother
But you’re deflecting. Obviously professional graders’ opinions carry more weight in the market; HOWEVER, when those expert opinions keep changing and you’re relying on a guarantee when the goal post keeps moving, collectors are justified in being critical and concerned.
Obviously, we need a VG 11 grade.
> @cameonut2011 said:
Of course the goal post keeps moving - tpg’s are like sharks….keep swimming or die. CAC can slow the process but not stop it. Note that the coins posted in this thread were all graded a decade ago…so if they aren’t seen as upgrades by now then the process has slowed. And yes, it financially harms certain coins at certain times and thus is really annoying…but taken as a snapshot at any given time is irrelevant because quality and pricing has always been a continuum and both still fall on that continuum at any given time
F12-
imagine having a business where your entire purpose is to certify & grade coins. then another business opens next door & their sole purpose is to judge whether you graded them correctly or not.
how about CAC2 stickers.. to judge if CAC did their job correctly.
If the coin market was regulated like the stock market or most other investments, there would be prosecutions for fraud. If X warranties an item as being “A” and not “B” and suddenly change the definition such that “Bs” are now “As” to gain money and avoid warranty claims, then it sounds like X is perilously coming close to fraud assuming it isn’t actual fraud.
Edited: To be clear there is no CAC warranty or guarantee, but CAC’s complicity adds a false veneer of legitimacy to the detriment of collectors and investors alike.
Obviously, we need a VG 11 grade.
> @cameonut2011 said:
Grading is an art, not a science. A coin company warrants it’s grading to its standard at the time of grading - nothing more, nothing less. Show me one thing in writing where a tpg claims its current standards are set in stone forever.
Bingo! Gold doesn't get a free pass at CAC even though it has been "notoriously messed with".
While I acknowledge that CAC has done a lot of good for collectors and the hobby, I would respect it a lot more if it would publish detailed and specific standards. Until then, these arguments are fairly meaningless because they cannot be remotely objective.
It is implied that there is a set standard and that any warranty claims are judged and adjudicated by that standard (at least of the time of warranty). If the standard/goal post keeps moving and those new standards keep superseding old standards and used to evaluate future warranty claims then it is all a game of smoke and mirrors to divert money from collectors. A standardless standard is no standard at all. And contrary to your suggestion, I’m not referring to a few items at the fringes. When there is mass movement in standards of obviously very different quality items, you can’t hide behind subjectivity.
I would beg to differ.
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an-example-of-grade-flation-lowering-specific-grade-market-values.341433/
peacockcoins
CAC’s entire purpose isn’t to “certify and grade coins”. A major part of their business it to trade coins. And they're on record as stating that their failure to sticker a coin doesn’t necessarily indicate it’s incorrectly graded.
If someone wants to start a “CAC2”, they should go for it. However that would require more than a little bit of expertise, financial backing, integrity and respect among experts - enough so, that it’s not going to happen.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I presume you beg to differ that "CAC has done a lot of good for collectors"? Perhaps I should have said that it has done a lot of good for many collectors. I've pointed out what I consider the negative aspects of CAC over the years, but I do respect JA as a legitimate authority, and appreciate that he has been generous with his time and knowledge to educate many users of his service. It's not a black and white situation in my mind.
EDIT: If you actually were arguing that gold does get a free pass, I would simply say that generally it does not, even though specific coins may contradict that thesis.
For all those that think my beef with the coin is the details for a F are wrong. My beef is the coin is far from original, even with the darken pictures it looks cleaned to me. I've submitted enough Barbers over the years to see PCGS relax their standards around cleaned coins. I haven't submitted many coins like this but every time I did it came back details cleaned. So my beef on this coin is with PCGS also.
My BIG BEEF with CAC on this coin is how it is harped that a coin must be totally unmessed with to get the bean. This coin is far from that!
@dogwood My opinion is that 20 is acceptably recovered as far as cleaning goes. I'm a firm believer that somewhere in the 90% range of all Mid-Grade Barbers were lightened up some way or another in the 50's and early 60's. The key is weather it was allowed to retone over the years. Why don't you post up the reverse? You know Liberty on many of the early dates didn't strike up well! The surfaces on the 20 are far better the 12 I posted. If you look at the PCGS grading pictures Liberty is not complete until VF25.
For those that didn't notice, The grading pictures posted in this thread are of a quarter!
@tradedollarnut The 2 coins you post are far more original than the coin in question. The 96-S happens to be a very tough coin to find in F. The prices are going up! I could probably sell 10 pieces right now if they have the look of the 2 you posted.
There is no other choice than to consent to a subjective standard .
>
CAC has never said, implied or practiced that. Your “BIG BEEF” (which, by the way, I think would be a fantastic name for a fast food sandwich😉) should be with people who say that, not with CAC.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That is for Barber Quarters. Barber Quarters are not graded the same as Barber Half Dollars.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
Sometimes the pros get it wrong. No one is being “attacked”. Some are questioning the opinion of those pros you default to. We frequent hear the phrase solid for the grade or high end for the grade. In this case some feel the coin is marginal for the grade and more in line with a 10. No attack, no assault, just an expression of a difference of opinion.
I always order a Big Beef Sandwich if given the option over a small Beef sandwich!
I rank the coins in my sets based on eye appeal, originality, etc. on a scale of 1-10. If I give a coin a 10 I feel there is not another coin that can improve it unless it is undergraded. If I give it a 7 I am not actively trying to replace it but will if one falls in my lap. Anything under 7 and I am actively trying to improve the look for what ever reason. I give this coin a 3! If this coin is JA's A or B coin they are doing a disservice to collectors of Barber's IMHO.
You do know I have PCGS Graded Barber Halve sets complete that I have been actively improving for a decade in the grades of F12,F15,VF20,VF25,VF30,VF35,XF40,XF45, + AU58.
Perhaps a BarberNut Bean is on the horizon akin to the eagle eye for Indians!
It would have helped to be clear about your "big beef" at the beginning.
HMMMM, Do you absorb the posts you quote me on? Look at my post to you yesterday at 11:03 PM!
IMO, cleaned and re-toned. Not awful, but not a very nice piece.
Another example of 'buy the coin, not the slab/sticker'.
Dave
I don't see much if any toning on that coin! It couldn't be much lighter unless it was polished!
What the heck! 100