Plus Ultra

Abuelo

Anyone won anything on the first day at the Soler y Llach Plus Ultra sale?

ChopmarkedTrades

Two new additions to my chopmarked Mexican crown set, both rather early. If anyone has a nice chopmarked example of an Iturbide 8R, Hookneck 8R, or Maximilian Peso, I'm your guy!

Mexico 1619-Mo D 8 Reales, Philip III, ex-Ponterio 124, January 18, 2003, No. 1833. Very difficult to locate dated cobs with chopmarks this early.

Mexico 1647/6-Mo P 8 Reales, Philip IV, ex-Dunigan, December 1993. Another rather early cob to find with chops, the full date making it particularly desirable.

Abuelo

@ChopmarkedTrades amazing pieces!

pruebas

@ChopmarkedTrades said:
Two new additions to my chopmarked Mexican crown set, both rather early. If anyone has a nice chopmarked example of an Iturbide 8R, Hookneck 8R, or Maximilian Peso, I'm your guy!

Mexico 1619-Mo D 8 Reales, Philip III, ex-Ponterio 124, January 18, 2003, No. 1833. Very difficult to locate dated cobs with chopmarks this early.

One minor nitpick. Generally when one says "ex-someone" they mean it was from "someone"'s collection. These were sold by Ponterio and Dunigan, so it wouldn't be customary to say "ex-Ponterio" or "ex-Dunigan".

You could say "ex-Ponterio auction xxxx" or "purchased from Ponterio", but to say "ex-Ponterio" would be misleading. Unless of course it was from his personal collection that was sold.

Abuelo

@pruebas I would agree, but in this case he is giving auction date and lot number, is not he?

pruebas

@Abuelo said:
@pruebas I would agree, but in this case he is giving auction date and lot number, is not he?

Yes, agreed. My bad.

RaraAvis

RaraAvis

@ChopmarkedTrades amazing pieces!

ChopmarkedTrades

I'd be interested to know more about the collection/collector; does anyone have any additional information?

Boosibri

I have one lot coming up im bidding on. Strong prices this far

Boosibri

Shut out

Abuelo

Very strong prices... Nothing for Grandpa!

JohnnyCache

Low estimates or spirited bidding

RaraAvis

Yorkshireman

@JohnnyCache said:

Low estimates or spirited bidding

6200 euros??
What makes that so special?

JohnnyCache

@Yorkshireman said:

@JohnnyCache said:

Low estimates or spirited bidding

6200 euros??
What makes that so special?

I assume that the winning bidder viewed the coin in hand and felt it was close to being worthy of an MS64 / MS65 grade. Or perhaps a triggered nuclear bid. Nothing to my eye presents itself as unique and for almost $7,300.00 it would need to be.

pruebas

@JohnnyCache said:

@Yorkshireman said:

@JohnnyCache said:

Low estimates or spirited bidding

6200 euros??
What makes that so special?

I assume that the winning bidder viewed the coin in hand and felt it was close to being worthy of an MS64 / MS65 grade. Or perhaps a triggered nuclear bid. Nothing to my eye presents itself as unique and for almost $7,300.00 it would need to be.

It was closer to $8800 (6200 * 1.22 / 0.86) and probably over $9000 when you add in the "export tax" in Spain.

Boosibri

Scare to rare FM assayer.

The auction house seems to have sent most gradeable coins to NGC. Now, I didn’t view to confirm that fact but seems reasonable to make that assumption, especially on higher end lots. I don’t see MS64 in that coins future.

Abuelo

And Heritage is also very strong.

MrEureka

@Boosibri said:
Scare to rare FM assayer.

The auction house seems to have sent most gradeable coins to NGC. Now, I didn’t view to confirm that fact but seems reasonable to make that assumption, especially on higher end lots. I don’t see MS64 in that coins future.

I viewed the entire sale in Barcelona. There were a lot of very nice raw coins that would have done well at the TPGs. It didn’t make a lot of sense, except for the fact that the auction firm lacks experience in American grading standards.

JohnnyCache

@Boosibri said:
Scare to rare FM assayer.

The auction house seems to have sent most gradeable coins to NGC. Now, I didn’t view to confirm that fact but seems reasonable to make that assumption, especially on higher end lots. I don’t see MS64 in that coins future.

It's actually the more common of the two varieties available for that year.

• Info Provided Courtesy of Brad Yonaka's excellent book
  A variety guide to the silver and copper coinage of the Mexico City mint 1772-1821

TwoKopeiki

MF is a tough assayer. It's a shame the one at Soler was cleaned. Last certified AU example brought over $2k a few years back, if memory serves.

The FM hammering at $6.2k is not a big stretch for a PL early portrait in MS, imo.

I added this one to my set.

1804 CARLUS error brought in strong money for a VF, but again - if it straight grades, it will be the first one to do so for that variety.

TwoKopeiki

Personally, i was surprised by the 1808 CIV proclamation medal at €11,000. I've always appreciated proclamation coinage that also includes a denomination and will eventually add a decent Grove-C9 example to my collection. And i know the holder said MS66. But what about all the PVC?

1792 in 64 hammering at €4.4k seems like a lot until you remember the 1791 in 64 bringing in over $10k after BP at Stacks just a few months ago.

1810 described as HJ/TH over-assayer variety was not, in fact, an HJ/TH but a different reverse die with a re-punched J.

1813-HJ hammering at €260 in VF is further reinforcing the scarcity of that particular assayer combination for the year. I haven't been able to find a nice appealing AU/MS example for about a decade now.

1814/3-HJ not selling at €2,500 is slightly surprising, as the highest graded example currently sits at XF40 and the one in the sale seems to be a low AU. But then again, this scarce variety has not been too popular over the years outside of some very specialized circles.

1816/5 hammering at €900 makes me think someone is banking on it being an MS.

1820 (if MS, as described) at €650 was a great deal. This and the 1821 are surprisingly tough dates in MS.

pruebas

@TwoKopeiki said:
Personally, i was surprised by the 1808 CIV proclamation medal at €11,000. I've always appreciated proclamation coinage that also includes a denomination and will eventually add a decent Grove-C9 example to my collection. And i know the holder said MS66. But what about all the PVC?

I found this price astonishing. Clearly the hype about it being unique struck a chord with some folks. But there are many unique mulings among these 1860s restrikes (in fact, I also own a very similar one) and while they are unique, they are all high-grade and they aren't particularly historic or unusual (if there are 10-20 "unique" mulings, what does that really mean?). The lot description also hyped up prooflike, but NGC declined to call it PL, so it's really just a lustrous MS66.

TwoKopeiki

@pruebas said:

@TwoKopeiki said:
Personally, i was surprised by the 1808 CIV proclamation medal at €11,000. I've always appreciated proclamation coinage that also includes a denomination and will eventually add a decent Grove-C9 example to my collection. And i know the holder said MS66. But what about all the PVC?

I found this price astonishing. Clearly the hype about it being unique struck a chord with some folks. But there are many unique mulings among these 1860s restrikes (in fact, I also own a very similar one) and while they are unique, they are all high-grade and they aren't particularly historic or unusual (if there are 10-20 "unique" mulings, what does that really mean?). The lot description also hyped up prooflike, but NGC declined to call it PL, so it's really just a lustrous MS66.

As far as "unique" goes, isn't this another example auctioned by Aureo as part of the Tomas Prieto sale last fall?

pruebas

Well there you go! Great catch.

Yet another cataloging error by Soler y Llach. But hey, they managed to obtain a good price for the consignor!

jgenn

@JohnnyCache said:
Low estimates or spirited bidding

I bid on that one via web until two floor bidders started after it. I guess they think it can straight grade as MS w/PL. But you can see that many of the MS level items were sent to NGC and some were graded. Makes me wonder why this one is not already slabbed.

jgenn

I did win one 8 reales lot: CHARLES III. 8 Royals. 1784. MEXICO. FM 26.92 grs. Minting slightly loose in part. Very slight taps. Original shine. SC-. / Partially weak strike. Very minor bumps. Mint luster. Encapsulated by NGC MS 62 (# 5781053-055). AC-1126; Cal-936.

JohnnyCache

@TwoKopeiki said:

The FM hammering at $6.2k is not a big stretch for a PL early portrait in MS, imo.

The pictures wouldn't have given me enough confidence that our host would see this coin as MS / PL.
But clearly at least two people saw something they liked.