@FredF said:
Re: the comments on terminal toning, I get it. If you only saw the outline of the obverse and reverse next to the rim, and it looked almost black, I would be with you. In hand, there's some red in the black under light, if it makes sense. All that said, I bought the coin based off of the DLRC images, and I was very happy with the coin when I got it. I did not feel bad about the price I paid, I enjoyed the 12 years I had with the coin, and if I could go back in time and warn my younger self about this coin, I wouldn't.
Could I have gotten more on e-bay or the BST? Maybe. I have something like 7 total feedback on e-bay. So I wouldn't be a trustworthy seller. BST, maybe, but part of it is time and ease of selling. I put a box in the mail and shipped to Heritage and they did all the rest of the work and in a few weeks I get a check.
It's more that what looked like amazing toning to me didn't look amazing to at least 2 people yesterday, so I lost quite a bit. If you're buying toning because you think it makes for a premium coin, and you think you will preserve your investment and/or make more money, just be careful.
This further suggests that the photo played a big role. If HA could add a video option, that could have been a big help.
Also, there is toning that appeals to a wider audience (brighter, vivid, rainbow) and then there is toning that is nice but has a smaller group of people that will like it (the Barber appears to fall into the second group). Both draw premiums but the first is less likely to sell for a lower price.
Have you seen HA's videos? They need a bucketload of help there too lol.
That should be easier to fix than the photography.
I can’t add anything not already said, but I’ll reiterate a few points. The coin looks original, but for higher end pieces that command premiums for color, very dark areas are usually killer outside of specific exceptions, such as the near-black you can get on a Morgan that looks fantastic when it has full lustre beneath it. Beyond that, the HA photo makes the coin look darker, flatter, and less colorful than your image, so whatever I think of the coin having seen your photo, as a buyer I wouldn’t know that. Lastly, this is just one example. What we really learned here is that not every coin is a great buy, not every venue is the right venue, and just because you like a coin doesn’t mean others will. I’m not discounting your experience with this one coin, but I don’t think it’s fair to use it to paint with a broad brush.
@FredF said:
Re: the comments on terminal toning, I get it. If you only saw the outline of the obverse and reverse next to the rim, and it looked almost black, I would be with you. In hand, there's some red in the black under light, if it makes sense. All that said, I bought the coin based off of the DLRC images, and I was very happy with the coin when I got it. I did not feel bad about the price I paid, I enjoyed the 12 years I had with the coin, and if I could go back in time and warn my younger self about this coin, I wouldn't.
Could I have gotten more on e-bay or the BST? Maybe. I have something like 7 total feedback on e-bay. So I wouldn't be a trustworthy seller. BST, maybe, but part of it is time and ease of selling. I put a box in the mail and shipped to Heritage and they did all the rest of the work and in a few weeks I get a check.
It's more that what looked like amazing toning to me didn't look amazing to at least 2 people yesterday, so I lost quite a bit. If you're buying toning because you think it makes for a premium coin, and you think you will preserve your investment and/or make more money, just be careful.
This further suggests that the photo played a big role. If HA could add a video option, that could have been a big help.
Also, there is toning that appeals to a wider audience (brighter, vivid, rainbow) and then there is toning that is nice but has a smaller group of people that will like it (the Barber appears to fall into the second group). Both draw premiums but the first is less likely to sell for a lower price.
Have you seen HA's videos? They need a bucketload of help there too lol.
That should be easier to fix than the photography.
Not if they wanna get on Stacks' level. I digress...
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
The real lesson is that the most important bidder in an auction isn’t the high bidder, it’s the second high bidder.
Beautiful coin, nevertheless.
Buying and Selling coins for 54 years, 700+ shows in last 20 years, and boy am I tired.
Purchased and Trademarked the Mohawk Valley Hoard
Originated the Rochester (NY) Area Coin Expo
@Zoins said:
Is the warning to not pay for toning or to make sure you sell in a venue that accentuates the coin’s good qualities?
I think the warning is there is a point at which the depth of toning begins to detract from the eye appeal of a coin. I think the coin in the OP crossed that point.
Coins will appear differently based on the skill of the photographer but I don’t think there is much that could be done to enhance the appears of that coin that wouldn't be considered fraud.
Again, I like the coin but don't love it to the point of paying a significant premium.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I think too many people see nice toning as tarnish. The fact is I think bright white on 100-200 year old coins looks unattractive and unnatural. The fact is most older white coins are over dipped and do not have the fresh luster of most 1935+ coins. The demand for only white coins has ruined many older coins.
Two pages in and only @rhedden has mentioned that the market for this coin (and many Barbers) is considerably weaker than it was in 2009. Just to put some numbers on that, a normal coin might have sold for $2K back then and you paid 20% more than that. $1050 today is about the going rate and unfortunately you didn’t get a premium on the resale. Interestingly, the coin just sold for $1620 and looks unattractive.
Although the HA photos aren’t great your coin was prominently featured on their auction banner in the weekly email notice I received. Also, toned Barber coins like this generally don’t carry much in the way of premiums. The dime in my set has beautiful target toning. It sold for a normal price at auction. Yours is nice but a bit dark as has been mentioned many times. I would have guessed 10% to 20% over a white example.
They offered me that on a couple of coins awhile back for an additional $500 per lot. Needless to say due to the poor photos and hiding of previous auction results I ended up buying my coins back. Unless one H of an offer is made my coins will never grace the pages of a Heritage auction again
@FredF said:
Re: the comments on terminal toning, I get it. If you only saw the outline of the obverse and reverse next to the rim, and it looked almost black, I would be with you. In hand, there's some red in the black under light, if it makes sense. All that said, I bought the coin based off of the DLRC images, and I was very happy with the coin when I got it. I did not feel bad about the price I paid, I enjoyed the 12 years I had with the coin, and if I could go back in time and warn my younger self about this coin, I wouldn't.
Could I have gotten more on e-bay or the BST? Maybe. I have something like 7 total feedback on e-bay. So I wouldn't be a trustworthy seller. BST, maybe, but part of it is time and ease of selling. I put a box in the mail and shipped to Heritage and they did all the rest of the work and in a few weeks I get a check.
It's more that what looked like amazing toning to me didn't look amazing to at least 2 people yesterday, so I lost quite a bit. If you're buying toning because you think it makes for a premium coin, and you think you will preserve your investment and/or make more money, just be careful.
This further suggests that the photo played a big role. If HA could add a video option, that could have been a big help.
Also, there is toning that appeals to a wider audience (brighter, vivid, rainbow) and then there is toning that is nice but has a smaller group of people that will like it (the Barber appears to fall into the second group). Both draw premiums but the first is less likely to sell for a lower price.
This is a surprisingly good discussion of tarnish on coins and related premiums. It is well known that I am not a fan of tarnish (as mentioned here as well ). However, it is a factor in the life of coins and certainly in the market. I have enjoyed reading the perceptions of those who pay a premium such coins, and where 'a line is drawn' for others. I also understand that older 'white' coins may well have been dipped (not all, some have been preserved in non reactive environments). I am not averse to what has been termed the 'circam' appearance on older coins, that results from handling in commerce. The current market for 'color' is what has led to the highly profitable 'doctoring' so often seen today. Personally, I consider such (either AT or NT) to be the same as excessive makeup on a female. Great thread and I appreciate the many thoughtful contributions. Cheers, RickO
I thought I would go back into my archives and revisit the 1909-D dime that I owned for several years. Bought it in 2006 in a PCGS MS64 holder. I bought an entire collection of AU/MS Barber 10c in PCGS holders that day, minus the 1894-S. Since it was a wholesale purchase, I negotiated the purchase of the set at greysheet Bid, regardless of whether the coins were high-end or low-end for the grade.
My 1909-D was untoned, and it was graded MS64, so one point lower than the OP's. Eye appeal is not as good as the OP's coin. I paid $1500 based on greysheet Bid in 2006. Now we see the OP's more attractive PCGS MS65 coin sell for $1050 in a retail venue in 2021. I think his loss is mostly due to the price of the coin slipping and sliding as the years went by, and we ought not to pin it all on the toning or lack of CAC approval.
Don’t forget, there are two participants here… the seller and the buyer. My experience with auction houses - numismatic and otherwise - is that the seller is not always favored…
@Joey29 said:
I think too many people see nice toning as tarnish. The fact is I think bright white on 100-200 year old coins looks unattractive and unnatural. The fact is most older white coins are over dipped and do not have the fresh luster of most 1935+ coins. The demand for only white coins has ruined many older coins.
Are over dipped coins ever graded as problem coins?
"I think his loss is mostly due to the price of the coin slipping and sliding as the years went by, and we ought not to pin it all on the toning or lack of CAC approval."
I checked out past sales for this specific coin. It sold for $2415 in November of 2009, and previously in 2004, for exactly the same amount, $2415 at an Heritage sale.
Jeff Ambio in his "Collecting & Investing Strategies for Barber Dimes" published in 2009 (!) stated: "...MS-65s and MS-66s are just valued too high in relation to their actually rarity." He put the 1909-D as the 5th most overvalued Barber Dime in MS65 and stated it was overvalued by 124.45%!!!
Today, the 17 PCGS MS65 1909-Ds appear fairly valued and there are only 3 that have the CAC sticker. It would be most worthwhile for our O.P. to contact J.A. and ask why his coin did not sticker.
There are other Barber dimes overvalued and undervalued. Don't be mislead by the price guides. Do your own research to determine the fair value of any coin.
Although the HA photos aren’t great your coin was prominently featured on their auction banner in the weekly email notice I received.
I don't get their notices so didn't see this. Thank you for sharing - just goes to the effort Heritage put forward to get me a good price for the coin. Again, the sum of the total I received for all my coins in the auction was close to the sum I expected to get, just this particular coin was a loss. Overall I rate them positive and would do business with them again. Have also been happy with the service and prices I've gotten at GC.
Two pages in and only @rhedden has mentioned that the market for this coin (and many Barbers) is considerably weaker than it was in 2009. Just to put some numbers on that, a normal coin might have sold for $2K back then and you paid 20% more than that.
That's a great point and one I had not considered as I was writing the post. This was only nice Barber dime I've ever owned. Back in 2009, I was focusing on my 1909 and 1857 date sets, in part because I found the cent transitions that those dates had in common to be interesting, and also because those two dates combined go a long way towards a type set. I've almost completely sold off all of those coins (one last batch of 1857's to go, will post on BST shortly). But that would then be another lesson - understand the trends in the coins that you own.
I checked out past sales for this specific coin. It sold for $2415 in November of 2009, and previously in 2004, for exactly the same amount, $2415 at an Heritage sale.
I cannot remember for certain, but my general strategy for deciding what to bid on a coin back then was to look at comps and try to figure out a fair price. It is quite probable that I saw the previous transaction and based the price I was willing to pay on that.
Thank you all for the great conversation
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
@rhedden said:
I thought I would go back into my archives and revisit the 1909-D dime that I owned for several years. Bought it in 2006 in a PCGS MS64 holder. I bought an entire collection of AU/MS Barber 10c in PCGS holders that day, minus the 1894-S. Since it was a wholesale purchase, I negotiated the purchase of the set at greysheet Bid, regardless of whether the coins were high-end or low-end for the grade.
My 1909-D was untoned, and it was graded MS64, so one point lower than the OP's. Eye appeal is not as good as the OP's coin. I paid $1500 based on greysheet Bid in 2006. Now we see the OP's more attractive PCGS MS65 coin sell for $1050 in a retail venue in 2021. I think his loss is mostly due to the price of the coin slipping and sliding as the years went by, and we ought not to pin it all on the toning or lack of CAC approval.
My preference normally would be a toned coin BUT I'd take your coin over the coin in the OP all day, every day. At some point I go with Ricko's "environment damage" when addressing certain toned coins. No offense intended but the coin in the OP is right there.
There are some dark coins that if you blast them with enough light you can get some luster and color to show through. Id love to be wrong but I seriously doubt that's the case with this coin.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Comments
That should be easier to fix than the photography.
I can’t add anything not already said, but I’ll reiterate a few points. The coin looks original, but for higher end pieces that command premiums for color, very dark areas are usually killer outside of specific exceptions, such as the near-black you can get on a Morgan that looks fantastic when it has full lustre beneath it. Beyond that, the HA photo makes the coin look darker, flatter, and less colorful than your image, so whatever I think of the coin having seen your photo, as a buyer I wouldn’t know that. Lastly, this is just one example. What we really learned here is that not every coin is a great buy, not every venue is the right venue, and just because you like a coin doesn’t mean others will. I’m not discounting your experience with this one coin, but I don’t think it’s fair to use it to paint with a broad brush.
Not if they wanna get on Stacks' level. I digress...
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Is the warning to not pay for toning or to make sure you sell in a venue that accentuates the coin’s good qualities?
The real lesson is that the most important bidder in an auction isn’t the high bidder, it’s the second high bidder.
Beautiful coin, nevertheless.
Buying and Selling coins for 54 years, 700+ shows in last 20 years, and boy am I tired.
Purchased and Trademarked the Mohawk Valley Hoard
Originated the Rochester (NY) Area Coin Expo
I think the warning is there is a point at which the depth of toning begins to detract from the eye appeal of a coin. I think the coin in the OP crossed that point.
Coins will appear differently based on the skill of the photographer but I don’t think there is much that could be done to enhance the appears of that coin that wouldn't be considered fraud.
Again, I like the coin but don't love it to the point of paying a significant premium.
I think too many people see nice toning as tarnish. The fact is I think bright white on 100-200 year old coins looks unattractive and unnatural. The fact is most older white coins are over dipped and do not have the fresh luster of most 1935+ coins. The demand for only white coins has ruined many older coins.
Yes paying extra for tarnish like taking the down elevator IMO. The tarnish gets worse over time.
Yes nice toning can be attractive but as time goes on……
Two pages in and only @rhedden has mentioned that the market for this coin (and many Barbers) is considerably weaker than it was in 2009. Just to put some numbers on that, a normal coin might have sold for $2K back then and you paid 20% more than that. $1050 today is about the going rate and unfortunately you didn’t get a premium on the resale. Interestingly, the coin just sold for $1620 and looks unattractive.
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/item/1909-d-10c/4851/7488520287907629988
Although the HA photos aren’t great your coin was prominently featured on their auction banner in the weekly email notice I received. Also, toned Barber coins like this generally don’t carry much in the way of premiums. The dime in my set has beautiful target toning. It sold for a normal price at auction. Yours is nice but a bit dark as has been mentioned many times. I would have guessed 10% to 20% over a white example.
They offered me that on a couple of coins awhile back for an additional $500 per lot.
Needless to say due to the poor photos and hiding of previous auction results I ended up buying my coins back. Unless one H of an offer is made my coins will never grace the pages of a Heritage auction again
This is a surprisingly good discussion of tarnish on coins and related premiums. It is well known that I am not a fan of tarnish (as mentioned here as well
). However, it is a factor in the life of coins and certainly in the market. I have enjoyed reading the perceptions of those who pay a premium such coins, and where 'a line is drawn' for others. I also understand that older 'white' coins may well have been dipped (not all, some have been preserved in non reactive environments). I am not averse to what has been termed the 'circam' appearance on older coins, that results from handling in commerce. The current market for 'color' is what has led to the highly profitable 'doctoring' so often seen today. Personally, I consider such (either AT or NT) to be the same as excessive makeup on a female. Great thread and I appreciate the many thoughtful contributions. Cheers, RickO
I thought I would go back into my archives and revisit the 1909-D dime that I owned for several years. Bought it in 2006 in a PCGS MS64 holder. I bought an entire collection of AU/MS Barber 10c in PCGS holders that day, minus the 1894-S. Since it was a wholesale purchase, I negotiated the purchase of the set at greysheet Bid, regardless of whether the coins were high-end or low-end for the grade.
My 1909-D was untoned, and it was graded MS64, so one point lower than the OP's. Eye appeal is not as good as the OP's coin. I paid $1500 based on greysheet Bid in 2006. Now we see the OP's more attractive PCGS MS65 coin sell for $1050 in a retail venue in 2021. I think his loss is mostly due to the price of the coin slipping and sliding as the years went by, and we ought not to pin it all on the toning or lack of CAC approval.
Don’t forget, there are two participants here… the seller and the buyer. My experience with auction houses - numismatic and otherwise - is that the seller is not always favored…
Are over dipped coins ever graded as problem coins?
"I think his loss is mostly due to the price of the coin slipping and sliding as the years went by, and we ought not to pin it all on the toning or lack of CAC approval."
I checked out past sales for this specific coin. It sold for $2415 in November of 2009, and previously in 2004, for exactly the same amount, $2415 at an Heritage sale.
Jeff Ambio in his "Collecting & Investing Strategies for Barber Dimes" published in 2009 (!) stated: "...MS-65s and MS-66s are just valued too high in relation to their actually rarity." He put the 1909-D as the 5th most overvalued Barber Dime in MS65 and stated it was overvalued by 124.45%!!!
Today, the 17 PCGS MS65 1909-Ds appear fairly valued and there are only 3 that have the CAC sticker. It would be most worthwhile for our O.P. to contact J.A. and ask why his coin did not sticker.
There are other Barber dimes overvalued and undervalued. Don't be mislead by the price guides. Do your own research to determine the fair value of any coin.
I don't get their notices so didn't see this. Thank you for sharing - just goes to the effort Heritage put forward to get me a good price for the coin. Again, the sum of the total I received for all my coins in the auction was close to the sum I expected to get, just this particular coin was a loss. Overall I rate them positive and would do business with them again. Have also been happy with the service and prices I've gotten at GC.
That's a great point and one I had not considered as I was writing the post. This was only nice Barber dime I've ever owned. Back in 2009, I was focusing on my 1909 and 1857 date sets, in part because I found the cent transitions that those dates had in common to be interesting, and also because those two dates combined go a long way towards a type set. I've almost completely sold off all of those coins (one last batch of 1857's to go, will post on BST shortly). But that would then be another lesson - understand the trends in the coins that you own.
I cannot remember for certain, but my general strategy for deciding what to bid on a coin back then was to look at comps and try to figure out a fair price. It is quite probable that I saw the previous transaction and based the price I was willing to pay on that.
Thank you all for the great conversation
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
My preference normally would be a toned coin BUT I'd take your coin over the coin in the OP all day, every day. At some point I go with Ricko's "environment damage" when addressing certain toned coins. No offense intended but the coin in the OP is right there.
There are some dark coins that if you blast them with enough light you can get some luster and color to show through. Id love to be wrong but I seriously doubt that's the case with this coin.