Warning: don't overpay for tarnish (a personal story with a clickbait title)
FredF
Posts: 526 ✭✭✭
First off - this is not a request for sympathy or anything. The way I view this situation is that I got to rent an extremely nice coin for 12+ years at a very economical monthly rate of $15/month 
. It's more discussion of market and toning and being careful. We all know that some people choose to pay well over the typical value for a given coin in a given grade if there is attractive toning.
Back in 2009 I was working on a 1909 mint set for the registry and stumbled across this fine coin:
I was smitten by the look, and the auctioneer's description "One of the prettiest Barber dimes of any date we've seen and this must rank as one of the nicest 1909-D's period" totally sold me. Additionally, this was right after I had gotten back into the hobby, I happened to have more disposable income than I had ever had before (more money than sense, one might say) and it was burning a hole in my pocket. I bid very strong. The photos are accurate. Looks like a sunrise on the reverse with the blue in the center and the red around the rim.
Earlier this year I decided it was time to wind things down. I went through what I still had and about 2/3 of it has been sold or shipped off to be auctioned. Some went to local B&M, some to GreatCollections, some to Heritage. This coin was one of the last ones where I was torn between keep or sell. Ultimately, anything where I wasn't dead-set on "keep" needed to go.
Result was yesterday. The coin sold right around the mid-point for non-CAC coins of the date and grade. No premium for the color. Now there is some manner of fortune here. Are there people out there who would have paid more for it? Sure. However I needed 2 of them to show up last night and that didn't happen. If a dealer bought the coin it won't shock me at all if (s)he marks it up nicely and makes a solid profit on it and that's a good thing for them.
Again - I'm fine. It was disposable income, I held the coin for a long time. It's truly a nice one, just didn't fit in my (much narrower now) collection. Someone else will enjoy it. The commentary is that if you buy a coin with color because you think you will be able to sell it at a huge premium later, don't count those chickens. If you buy a coin with color because you like the look and will enjoy it - that's a different story.
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
Comments
Yes, that's too bad, lovely dime.
This could just as easily occur with any coin in an auction. As you said, you need TWO people to show up. It just doesn't always happen.....
Yet people here constantly insist that auction results "set the price". And if anyone dares ask more for a coin than that "set price", they're trying to rip you off.
Good write-up and certainly something to think about. I wonder how much at minimum a PCGS Trueview reholder and then a successful trip to CAC would've impacted the hammer?
Successful BST Transactions with: PerryHall, MrSlider, Cent1225, SurfinxHI, Blu62vette, robkool, gowithmygut, coinlieutenant, Downtown1974, MilesWaits, Shrub68, justindan
Heritage didn't do you any favors with the photos nor the write-up.
peacockcoins
@RedSeals - coin did not CAC (I sent it). My belief, looking at the coin with a critical eye, is that there are a few more contact marks on the cheek than what JA would want to see in a 65. In hand, you don't see them unless you go looking for them because the colors draw your eyes to the periphery.
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
Population count, greysheet bid and mintage specifications aren't much of a write-up if you ask me.
To be fair, if it gets run up at auction they assume it is shill bidding and they are still getting ripped off. 😀
I started to get interested in toned coins in the early 2000s. I bought several and paid premiums to get them. In 2004 I took some of them to the Pittsburgh ANA summer show and decided to test the market for such coins. "Not what we are looking for" was the response I got. I never paid a premium for a toned coin again.
Selling toners and getting all the money usually requires great imaging. All due respect to GC, DLRC, and HA, none of them have what I would call great imaging. More damning than their imaging is the fact that none of them seem interested in bringing in a truly top-level coin photographer to work for them.
There's only one person I trust to sell my toners after being roasted by various auction houses a few times, and that's me.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Legend does a good job too, especially with the audience and descriptions.
@MasonG - in the weekly auctions, there aren't descriptions really (same with GreatCollections, this is not unique to Heritage). I have some coins coming up in the Signature auction, and they did much more there. But as an auctioneer they had to draw the line someplace. I'm comfortable that if I step back and look at my collection overall, that Heritage did what they felt was right to maximize the total I get for everything vs. optimizing any one coin. I had 11 coins in the auction last night and I had predictions based on recent comps as to how I thought my coins would go. 7 of them did better than my prediction and 4 did worse. Overall, because of this particular coin, I was pretty close to my target, but I am not complaining. I can't predict how my coins in the Signature auction will do, but I believe Heritage is doing the right thing.
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
I edited my post for what it's worth. But yeah, Legends Regency auctions actually use a great photographer so they do well. You'd think the others would see the value add from having a quality coin photographer and step their game up, but alas...
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I make bank on the poor photography from the auction houses
Fair enough. I'm not familiar enough with the various types of auctions they hold to have noticed the different levels of write-ups. As long as you're satisfied with what they did, that's all that really counts.
Interesting. I understand that you are talking about 15+ years ago. I am asking from a respectful point ( I accidentally referred to Fred Weinberg as “ the slabbed cricket guy and have been explaining myself since🤓) Is today’s market making you rethink this position or are you still of a mind that, as Ricko sez “tarnish is tarnish “ ( oh no. I hope I don’t get slammed for mis-quoting him). 😳. I’ll stop now. I see toning in the current market and wonder?🤠
Thanks 😉
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
The Heritage pictures certainly didn’t help your coin. I don’t know what the coin looks like in hand but it looks overly dark to me with neutral toning at best from the HA images.
That really is the question. If the HA photos are accurate, I would avoid that coin. Whereas if the original photos are more accurate, I wouldn't.
IMO, that coin is too dark at the periphery to garner premium money for toning. My guess is, your exhuberence for the coin when you purchased it was a little over the top. You have probably refined your taste since then. I would pass on that coin today.
Would have been a coin I would have loved to add to my barber dime set, but the timing is not right for me. Working on other sets at the moment. Pretty dime!
That’s basically my thinking too. Even on the original photo (but especially with the Heritage photo), the toning around the periphery is too dark to draw a big premium. It’s a nice coin and could have sold for more in a private sale or eBay fixed listing (with some patience to find the right buyer) but the original price just seems too high to overcome even with today’s strong market.
On a different note, the OP did say he enjoyed the coin and that is the most important part of collecting. He had the funds originally and buying the coin didn’t put him in any sort of financial bind, so I see nothing wrong.
Just because you had a bad experience with a not so pretty toned coin doesn’t mean they are all doomed. I disagree with your assessment of the toned coin market. Go find a beautifully toned piece for book value. I mean one that’s naturally toned and beautiful. I’m more than sure that would be a rare occasion.
I collect mostly peace dollars which are rare to have the following two conditions: cameo or PL designations and “natural” legit rainbow toning. If you find a rainbow toned peace dollar it was artificially done. If you have a PL Peace dollar please PM me and expect to offered a very nice price for it ...!! They just don’t exist (I know this is controversial)!
The large cartoon HA images did the coin no justice... As they made the peripheral toning on both sides look terminal and the reverse centers having been cleaned. IMHO the coin would have sold for more with just the full slab shots.
I just spoke with HA at the last Long Beach show and asked if I could provide the photography for any coins that I wish to auction off through HA.
They said it is a complicated process and that they usually do not do this but of course was open to a discussion on the issue.
NO Way I ever let an auction house photograph my coins when my superior photography would bring soooo much more on the final hammer.
Very well-reasoned writeup. I would consider your experience as a piece of the "tuition" most of us end up paying.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I assume open to discussion means "How much are you consigning?"
The reality is HA could probably permanently fix their coin photography for $100k a year all in. That should be enough to lure one of the upper-tier coin photographers away from their day jobs to Dallas. I don't get why they won't consider it.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Not that I’m all that I’d consider it as I’m already thinking of moving my entire family outta California. I agree 100% that Heritage images really do suck.
I am not sure 100K would do it.
I would not move to Texas from California for 100K a year to work in cube.
Quality of life is too important too me.
There have been several well-measured responses but I'd still like to throw my two cents in. I think DLRC did an injustice in their description. The degree of terminal toning on this coin eliminates any sense of primacy despite other nice colors that may be present. The absence of the terms "Dark" or "Terminal" would leave the observer with a false sense that perhaps the coin looks better (e.g. not absolutely dark) in hand when it seems that is not the case. Perhaps it looks more red when shone strongly under a lamp, but generally, I imagine the first impression upon looking at this coin under normal conditions would be, "wow that's dark"!
It seems only when terminal toning plays well with colorful toning is any premium preserved and that is just not the case here. There is a stark contrast between the terminal toning and the nicer toning, and at that, the obverse is just too far gone no matter how one may spin it. A nice play between darker and lighter toning would involve a smooth transition between the pastel, neon, and black color spectrums rather than an overbearance of black onto any remnant color.
That all being said, I think back to the original point, it is suitable to warn others against overpaying for "tarnished" coins but due diligence is required to draw a distinction between "tarnish" and attractive toning that warrants a premium, from subtle to substantial.
To each their own. I currently work from home full-time but thats its own kind of prison since I have to sit at a desk all day. I picked $100k because I think thats my magic number where I'm telling the wife and kid to pack up and renting a truck. I might be underselling my overall skill set at $100k/year though.
Moot point, they've flat-out ignored any past inquiries from me in that regard. And this is not to say I'm an incredible coin photographer, but I'm good enough to be a very substantial step up for them in that department, I think. Oh well, what are ya gonna do?
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
“I was smitten by the look, and the auctioneer's description "One of the prettiest Barber dimes of any date we've seen and this must rank as one of the nicest 1909-D's period" totally sold me.”
Most auction descriptions are not very objective and are intended to hype up the coin. The most useful descriptions from my perspective at the big auctions are the ones that don’t have all the typical glowing endorsements. The contrarian in me interprets a coin with a neutral description as a less then desirable coin.
Really thought-provoking post.
Selling something at auction for significantly less than you paid for it always produces a visceral response. I've had this happen to me several times and in no particular order, here's my thoughts about your experience:
I had a top 5 Barber dime registry set back in the 2006-2011 era. I sold it when prices for MS coins continued to slide with no end in sight.
There is another factor at work here: the MS 1907-D and 1909-D dimes were billed as major condition rarities back in the 1990s. It turns out that there is not enough collector demand to support the prices that were being asked, nor are these coins very rare in MS grades. Those two dates were the two biggest losers when I sold my set.
More MS 1909-D dimes turned up over the years, and PCGS has now certified 90 examples in MS grades, including duplicate submissions. You sold a coin that was an overrated turd for many years and continues to drop in price in MS grades. Sell into a bear market, get less than price guides indicate.
https://pcgs.com/pricehistory#/?=4851-65
@FredF: Thanks for the write-up, this has been an interesting and educational thread.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Great thread thanks for posting your experience. This Bullitt point by BryceM is spot on:
"It is easier to buy coins than sell them, and a significant part of the damage here occurred when you bought it, not when you sold it."
If more collectors understood this better you would see less collectors getting burned; personally I have been pointing out the issues with the toned market for years. I am happy for you that from an overall standpoint it sounds like you came out so far right where you had expected, best of luck with the remaining coins you have consigned to auction.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Although I like the barbers I always thought their pricing was way too high considering most people dont seem to like the design. I have avoided collecting them for that reason aside from a few coins. I dont think this covid flare up had any effect on their pricing or popularity like other series so you may also be feeling gyped by that. And no offense but the color in neither pictures, HA nor yours really make me ga ga so I'm not sure how much the color should add to this one.
Firstly, my philosophy is not to overpay for anything, if I can help it. Some "tarnish" is fairly-valued at a huge premium, other "tarnish" not so much. I think one takeaway would be that sellers hype toned coins in all manner of ways ("rainbow" comes to mind as an oft-abused term). Use your own eyes, and take descriptions with a big grain of salt. One is better off not bidding strongly without a keen sense of the market and how different types of toning are valued therein. Selling some toned coins is a great (and sometimes painful) way to gain such an education.
If I were to consign on eBay DelawareDoons would be my "go-to".
Richard of "greattoning" is also wonderful.
peacockcoins
Love this thread. Thanks for sharing. While I am a great lover of toned coins(specific natural toning), I think this story has probably happened to many. Auctions seem to rise and fall and, as you stated, two bidders with like intentions must be there at the final hammer.
While I am not a great admirer of Barber coins, I do like them better than in the past and I absolutely love your toned Barber Dime. I will probably be beat up over this, but I do not think that your coin has enough damage of any kind to prevent a grade of 65. Do not know why JA didn't like it, but I feel it is deserving of a 65. My opinion.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Re: the comments on terminal toning, I get it. If you only saw the outline of the obverse and reverse next to the rim, and it looked almost black, I would be with you. In hand, there's some red in the black under light, if it makes sense. All that said, I bought the coin based off of the DLRC images, and I was very happy with the coin when I got it. I did not feel bad about the price I paid, I enjoyed the 12 years I had with the coin, and if I could go back in time and warn my younger self about this coin, I wouldn't.
Could I have gotten more on e-bay or the BST? Maybe. I have something like 7 total feedback on e-bay. So I wouldn't be a trustworthy seller. BST, maybe, but part of it is time and ease of selling. I put a box in the mail and shipped to Heritage and they did all the rest of the work and in a few weeks I get a check.
It's more that what looked like amazing toning to me didn't look amazing to at least 2 people yesterday, so I lost quite a bit. If you're buying toning because you think it makes for a premium coin, and you think you will preserve your investment and/or make more money, just be careful.
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
While it’s a beautiful dime, I don’t think the toning is overly fantastic, at least for my eyes. Could be more of a case of overpaying a decade ago. Again, she’s a beauty, and I’m sure it was wonderful to have it in your collection.
Dave
Auctions are funny, I have sold over graded common coins for 2x any other results and rare and special gems for .6x basic guide.
I believe this phenomenon is one of the main factors that push cac and older holders to establish multiple layers of attraction to otherwise generic bids. Most coins have minimal opportunity costs and much like strike designations, it manufactures rarity
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I have a hunch the coin might have realized more on GC than at Heritage. Sorry, but the toning is simply not "amazing", and the Heritage photos don't do it any favors, as has been pointed out.
Help me understand - if natural legit rainbow toning is rare, how can one then state rainbow toned is automatically artificially done?
More to the point of this thread, I have sold rainbow Peace $ in legit TPG holders for more than 3x what I paid for them.
As stated earlier, buying at the right price is key - and recognizing toning that will have broad appeal vs. being a little to dark, etc., along with proper (or at least decent) imaging.
Successful BST Transactions: erwindoc, VTchaser, moursund, robkool, RelicKING, Herb_T, Meltdown, ElmerFusterpuck, airplanenut
I will pay a premium for toning I like. That said the coin in the OP crossed over into the darker than I like realm. Dial back the toning to something more in line with these and I think a few more eyes would have been drawn to the bidding.
With that being said, I don’t think that GC photos would do the coin any favors either.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
We may never know, but I find GC's photos better quality on average than Heritage's. YMMV.
Oh cmon! One example does not prove a trend. As has been mentioned, white coins underperform as well. Choosing your venue better could very well have still birthed this assertion.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
This further suggests that the photo played a big role. If HA could add a video option, that could have been a big help.
Also, there is toning that appeals to a wider audience (brighter, vivid, rainbow) and then there is toning that is nice but has a smaller group of people that will like it (the Barber appears to fall into the second group). Both draw premiums but the first is less likely to sell for a lower price.
Have you seen HA's videos? They need a bucketload of help there too lol.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."