THANKS SO MUCH OAKSTAR... It actually wasn't to hard to see. What goes up must come down since the Tulip Mania many years ago.... Just sayin.
So are you expecting collectible coins to crash also? $500 for a silver dollar seems like an absurd bubble. There's less than $20 with of silver there.
@telephoto1 said:
Sorry but I have zero interest in something that comes from nothing, is backed by nothing, and where even supposed experts on it and creators of it cannot clearly define its uses. And those "crypto profits" aren't so profitable right now. As I write this, they're all down between 2% and 7% today alone. Ask the folks who ran BTC up and bought it at $40k what they think about it at $16k. I'll stick with shiny metal with a few thousand years long track record of having proven value anywhere in the world and that has never been worth zero....and that someone can't simply make worthless literally with the flip of a switch.
The government could make gold all but worthless with the stroke of a pen.
@jmlanzaf said:
The government could make gold all but worthless with the stroke of a pen.
To be fair, the government could say gold is worthless but they don't have that kind of control over what people actually think about it or what they (people, not the government) choose to do with it.
@jmlanzaf said:
The government could make gold all but worthless with the stroke of a pen.
To be fair, the government could say gold is worthless but they don't have that kind of control over what people actually think about it or what they (people, not the government) choose to do with it.
That's equally true of crypto currencies. You can't stop 2 people from transferring crypto between each other - other than at the point of a gun. And you can't stop 2 people from transferring gold between each other - other than at the point of a gun. So, however you want to phrase it, the two asset classes are equivalent in that regard.
@pmh1nic said:
Bitcoin was promoted as a currency and a long-term store of wealth. It's proven to be neither. So what is it? It's a highly speculative asset that most folks don't understand, even very wealthy investors like Kevin O'Leary who claimed he had done due diligence before investing millions into Bitcoin.
As jmlanzaf said, by who? Bitcoin has no central media organization or budget. Do we want to talk about all the things gold bugs have said in the past or the US Dollar doomsayers? They have as much credibility.
But for the record, Bitcoin has been a very good store of wealth but like with any asset it's a matter of timing. The reality is, raising interest rates is very bullish for the dollar so when you buy BTC with USD, you go long BTC and short the USD which was a bad move. The strong dollar has been bad for the price of many assets including stocks. The USD bull will continue as long as the fed keeps raising rates. It's not a reflection of the quality of other asset classes as it is just relative performance.
BTC has a high volatility for sure, but it also has high alpha potential. As with any investing with risk comes reward. And again, BTC isn't necessary a great store of value for US citizens, but if you're in one of these countries with a declining government currency, BTC has held value VERY well.
And while Bitcoin has traded at 3-4x it's current USD value in the past (and may stocks are trading at half of what they were 6 months ago), it's still up massively from its early days. If history is a guide, it's likely that within the next year or two BTC will be setting new highs when the USD stops gaining value.
The hype surrounding this unregulated, decentralized currency never many any sense to me. Does anyone really think major governments like the U.S. are going to allow some unregulated currency they can't monitor, control and tax threaten the U.S. dollar? Bitcoin is mined at the whim of governments that control the electricity required to mine it and technology required to exchange it.
I don't know, why wouldn't the US government prefer a digital currency they CAN monitor to some degree compared to the federal reserve notes that they can't monitor at all or tax and for which they can only control the printing of? Bitcoin is not much different than any other asset such as oil, metals, lumber, cattle, corn, etc. Why would a government be threatened with this a new asset class if you still must pay your taxes in FRNs? Historically when any government fiat starts losing value, the population naturally turns to barter, and that's essentially what it is when you trade your Bitcoin for a hamburger.
Digital currency is already here and at some point will be the universal medium of exchange, with the exception of a gray/black market. The government will control it and have the ability to track every dollar you make, save and spend.
Yes, for the CBDCs. Decentralized cryptocurrency will always exist as its own market, there is no way to stop it.
Bitcoin has NOT been a great store of wealth. Read the charts.
Bitcoin was touted as a currency. It was never a currency due to its volatility. "High alpha potential". What does that even mean?
The U.S. government IS going to have a digital currency that the vast majority will use and one they can monitor but it won't be Bitcoin.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Bitcoin has NOT been a great store of wealth. Read the charts.
Carvana stock hasn't been either.
But it depends on when you buy it. Things go up, things go down. Your USD savings account has lost arguably 8% of its purchasing power in the last year and more over the decades so cash not a good store of value either.
Silver is down 50-60% from its peak in USD terms. But if you bought in the 00's you're pretty happy. Would have been hard to make the case for gold as a good store of value in 2001. Of course that was a great time to buy and you'd be thrilled if you bought BTC in the 2010.
Bitcoin was touted as a currency. It was never a currency due to its volatility. "High alpha potential". What does that even mean?
It meets pretty much every definition of a currency. A currency doesn't have to be stable. Just ask Venezuela, or Russia, or Zimbabwe.
@pmh1nic said:
Bitcoin has NOT been a great store of wealth. Read the charts.
Carvana stock hasn't been either.
But it depends on when you buy it. Things go up, things go down. Your USD savings account has lost arguably 8% of its purchasing power in the last year and more over the decades so cash not a good store of value either.
Silver is down 50-60% from its peak in USD terms. But if you bought in the 00's you're pretty happy. Would have been hard to make the case for gold as a good store of value in 2001. Of course that was a great time to buy and you'd be thrilled if you bought BTC in the 2010.
Bitcoin was touted as a currency. It was never a currency due to its volatility. "High alpha potential". What does that even mean?
It meets pretty much every definition of a currency. A currency doesn't have to be stable. Just ask Venezuela, or Russia, or Zimbabwe.
The U.S. government IS going to have a digital currency that the vast majority will use and one they can monitor but it won't be Bitcoin.
Correct. It will be a digital form of the US Dollar, likely interfchangeable.
The huge hype in Bitcoin has occurred over the last two year. Look at the annual chart. Anyone that purchased Bitcoin over the two years has lost money. Silver and gold have had it's ups and downs over the last year but they pale in comparison to what has occurred with Bitcoin. Silver and gold will never go to zero. There will always be value in them. The same can't be said about Bitcoin.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Bitcoin was promoted as a currency and a long-term store of wealth. It's proven to be neither. So what is it? It's a highly speculative asset that most folks don't understand, even very wealthy investors like Kevin O'Leary who claimed he had done due diligence before investing millions into Bitcoin.
The hype surrounding this unregulated, decentralized currency never many any sense to me. Does anyone really think major governments like the U.S. are going to allow some unregulated currency they can't monitor, control and tax threaten the U.S. dollar? Bitcoin is mined at the whim of governments that control the electricity required to mine it and technology required to exchange it.
Digital currency is already here and at some point will be the universal medium of exchange, with the exception of a gray/black market. The government will control it and have the ability to track every dollar you make, save and spend.
Promoted by whom? Could you cite the source?
Of course there have been people with opinions that run the gamut from enthusiastic hype to pessimistic dismissal. If you listen to either extreme, they were horribly wrong.
The same exact thing occurred with the internet. People dismissed it. People hyped it. The truth lay in between.
From Michael Saylor to Kevin O'Leary to Elon Musk to dozens of internet "influencers" that the under 30 crowd view as financial gurus.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Bitcoin was promoted as a currency and a long-term store of wealth. It's proven to be neither. So what is it? It's a highly speculative asset that most folks don't understand, even very wealthy investors like Kevin O'Leary who claimed he had done due diligence before investing millions into Bitcoin.
The hype surrounding this unregulated, decentralized currency never many any sense to me. Does anyone really think major governments like the U.S. are going to allow some unregulated currency they can't monitor, control and tax threaten the U.S. dollar? Bitcoin is mined at the whim of governments that control the electricity required to mine it and technology required to exchange it.
Digital currency is already here and at some point will be the universal medium of exchange, with the exception of a gray/black market. The government will control it and have the ability to track every dollar you make, save and spend.
Promoted by whom? Could you cite the source?
Of course there have been people with opinions that run the gamut from enthusiastic hype to pessimistic dismissal. If you listen to either extreme, they were horribly wrong.
The same exact thing occurred with the internet. People dismissed it. People hyped it. The truth lay in between.
From Michael Saylor to Kevin O'Leary to Elon Musk to dozens of internet "influencers" that the under 30 crowd view as financial gurus.
That is not a proper citation. You are randomly naming names. It is already a currency. Where did they claim it was a store of wealth over the "long term"? Have we reached the "long term"? You could argue that over the "long term" BTC has shown itself to be an incredibly growth engine. You only point to the short term correction as evidence that is not.
I expected more from you. You're usual such a stickler for details and now you are mixing time frames and providing improper citations.
The huge hype in Bitcoin has occurred over the last two year. Look at the annual chart. Anyone that purchased Bitcoin over the two years has lost money. Silver and gold have had it's ups and downs over the last year but they pale in comparison to what has occurred with Bitcoin. Silver and gold will never go to zero. There will always be value in them. The same can't be said about Bitcoin.
OK, so something's not a good store of value if it has gone down for the past 2 years? What if it recovers and proceeds to new highs? Will it be a good store of value then? My point is just that you can pick any asset and see the same thing. May 2020 Silver was at ~$14. April 2011 it was at $49, a 71% loss. July 2013 silver was at $19, a 62% loss in just over 2 years. Is silver a good store of value? Real estate is generally a good store of value but do you think it's wise to buy up a bunch a residential homes right now? Is it valid to cherry pick and limit time periods to make this argument?
I agree PMs will never go to zero and BTC can, but so also can securities and even US government bonds. What's the point? There's lots of ways to store value but they all have risks and they all have periods where they will go up or down in value. I'm not sure why crypto would be excluded from this category.
@telephoto1 said:
Sorry but I have zero interest in something that comes from nothing, is backed by nothing, and where even supposed experts on it and creators of it cannot clearly define its uses.
And that is why they are enforcing withdrawing "nothing"
Genesis’ Crypto-Lending Unit Is Halting Customer Withdrawals in Wake of FTX Collapse The unit, known as Genesis Global Capital, serves an institutional client base and had $2.8 billion in total active loans as of the end of the third quarter of 2022.
@Ownerofawheatiehorde said:
In my opinion, the great days of crypto is over. There may be some excitement in the industry, but nothing compared to what it used to be
@Ownerofawheatiehorde said:
In my opinion, the great days of crypto is over. There may be some excitement in the industry, but nothing compared to what it used to be
Why do you say that?
Because crypto has had a large drop from all time highs just like every other asset class has done in the past? You must not remember the last big pull back in crypto from which everything recovered.
Or because of one fraudulent schemer? I guess we don't remember the other exchange collapses and hacks that also brought the crypto markets down but eventually recovered from?
Won't the coming regulation that allows institutions to invest custodial funds into crypto provide a massive source of new capital that could/will send prices higher? There's about to be a court ruling that most anticipate will provide legal support for cryptos not being securities which should embolden institutions to enter the space. The crypto market cap (under $1T) is tiny compared to other asset classes, it won't take much institutional money to move prices. Why wouldn't Wall Street be interested in playing in this new casino once they are allowed to do so? There are Billions and Trillions sitting in cash looking for investment, but what looks good right now? Real estate? Nope. Stocks? Nope. Bonds? Nope. Energy? Definitely not fossil fuels. Commodities? Maybe. Wall street money moves from sector to sector as things happen. There will be a point where crypto is going to be a great alternative to everything else and the sector will get hot again. Wait and see.
@Ownerofawheatiehorde said:
In my opinion, the great days of crypto is over. There may be some excitement in the industry, but nothing compared to what it used to be
Why do you say that?
Because crypto has had a large drop from all time highs just like every other asset class has done in the past? You must not remember the last big pull back in crypto from which everything recovered.
Or because of one fraudulent schemer? I guess we don't remember the other exchange collapses and hacks that also brought the crypto markets down but eventually recovered from?
Won't the coming regulation that allows institutions to invest custodial funds into crypto provide a massive source of new capital that could/will send prices higher? There's about to be a court ruling that most anticipate will provide legal support for cryptos not being securities which should embolden institutions to enter the space. The crypto market cap (under $1T) is tiny compared to other asset classes, it won't take much institutional money to move prices. Why wouldn't Wall Street be interested in playing in this new casino once they are allowed to do so? There are Billions and Trillions sitting in cash looking for investment, but what looks good right now? Real estate? Nope. Stocks? Nope. Bonds? Nope. Energy? Definitely not fossil fuels. Commodities? Maybe. Wall street money moves from sector to sector as things happen. There will be a point where crypto is going to be a great alternative to everything else and the sector will get hot again. Wait and see.
I guess your right, but right now im just sick of that "Bobby's Crypto Land" stuff, and yes scams.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
The huge hype in Bitcoin has occurred over the last two year. Look at the annual chart. Anyone that purchased Bitcoin over the two years has lost money. Silver and gold have had it's ups and downs over the last year but they pale in comparison to what has occurred with Bitcoin. Silver and gold will never go to zero. There will always be value in them. The same can't be said about Bitcoin.
OK, so something's not a good store of value if it has gone down for the past 2 years? What if it recovers and proceeds to new highs? Will it be a good store of value then? My point is just that you can pick any asset and see the same thing. May 2020 Silver was at ~$14. April 2011 it was at $49, a 71% loss. July 2013 silver was at $19, a 62% loss in just over 2 years. Is silver a good store of value? Real estate is generally a good store of value but do you think it's wise to buy up a bunch a residential homes right now? Is it valid to cherry pick and limit time periods to make this argument?
I agree PMs will never go to zero and BTC can, but so also can securities and even US government bonds. What's the point? There's lots of ways to store value but they all have risks and they all have periods where they will go up or down in value. I'm not sure why crypto would be excluded from this category.
You left out two key words, long term. I realize perceptions can be manipulated by being selective in time frame. That said it was claimed that Bitcoin was a long term store of value. I don't believe you can legitimately make that claim given the relatively short history of Bitcoin. What has occurred over the last two years doesn't support that claim.
What if statements are statements of faith. What has occurred with Bitcoin and FTX over the last weeks and months don't give me a lot of faith in crypto as it is currently structured. Two of the major selling points of crypto were decentralized and unregulated. Both of those factors are not going to be carried over into the crypto that governments are going to support.
Yes, all stores of value have risk which is why you don't put all of your eggs in one basket. That said an asset that can gain and lose 50%+ of it's value in less than a year doesn't inspire great faith to keep investing in it. Those types of fluctuations tell me the price is easy to manipulate. You've never seen that type of fluctuation with gold and when it happened with silver it was via illegal manipulation.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Bitcoin was promoted as a currency and a long-term store of wealth. It's proven to be neither. So what is it? It's a highly speculative asset that most folks don't understand, even very wealthy investors like Kevin O'Leary who claimed he had done due diligence before investing millions into Bitcoin.
The hype surrounding this unregulated, decentralized currency never many any sense to me. Does anyone really think major governments like the U.S. are going to allow some unregulated currency they can't monitor, control and tax threaten the U.S. dollar? Bitcoin is mined at the whim of governments that control the electricity required to mine it and technology required to exchange it.
Digital currency is already here and at some point will be the universal medium of exchange, with the exception of a gray/black market. The government will control it and have the ability to track every dollar you make, save and spend.
Promoted by whom? Could you cite the source?
Of course there have been people with opinions that run the gamut from enthusiastic hype to pessimistic dismissal. If you listen to either extreme, they were horribly wrong.
The same exact thing occurred with the internet. People dismissed it. People hyped it. The truth lay in between.
From Michael Saylor to Kevin O'Leary to Elon Musk to dozens of internet "influencers" that the under 30 crowd view as financial gurus.
That is not a proper citation. You are randomly naming names. It is already a currency. Where did they claim it was a store of wealth over the "long term"? Have we reached the "long term"? You could argue that over the "long term" BTC has shown itself to be an incredibly growth engine. You only point to the short term correction as evidence that is not.
I expected more from you. You're usual such a stickler for details and now you are mixing time frames and providing improper citations.
First, it is not a currency. Few if any are using it as a currency due to the massive fluctuations in price. Tesla said it would accept Bitcoin as currency. That lasted about a week. Any store that accepted Bitcoin as payment immediately turn it into fiat not risking a drop in value.
Second, these aren't just random names. These folks have been major influencers promoting Bitcoin as an investment. The term "store of value" carries with it the idea of long term even if you don't use the words long term. A huge number of folks that were sold on the Bitcoin utopia over the last two years would disagree with you. Over a trillion dollars of the estimated $1.6 trillion crypto cap has been wiped out over the last year. You had the $500 billion Binance hack. We're now hearing the cries for government oversight and regulations. So much for decentralized, unregulated and outside government control.
Digital currency is already here and more so in our future but it will be one controlled, regulated, monitored and taxed by governments.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
First, it is not a currency. Few if any are using it as a currency due to the massive fluctuations in price. Tesla said it would accept Bitcoin as currency. That lasted about a week. Any store that accepted Bitcoin as payment immediately turn it into fiat not risking a drop in value.
By what definition? It is a medium of exchange by all definitions. I bought a burrito at Chipotle with ETH a few weeks ago. Many bullion dealers accept BTC as payment. Yes, stores in the US that accept BTC as payment convert it quickly because their accounting systems are in USD and their suppliers only take BTC. That doesn't mean it's not a currency but the definitions that come up on Google.
Second, these aren't just random names. These folks have been major influencers promoting Bitcoin as an investment. The term "store of value" carries with it the idea of long term even if you don't use the words long term. A huge number of folks that were sold on the Bitcoin utopia over the last two years would disagree with you. Over a trillion dollars of the estimated $1.6 trillion crypto cap has been wiped out over the last year. You had the $500 billion Binance hack.
Define long term. Most of the crying here is from what's happened over the past 2 years. Long term most of the top 10 crypto has done REALLY REALLY well. Do I need to tell you what BTC was selling for 10 years ago? Or what ETH was selling for when it launched? How about DOGE? Cardano? All of those are up massively even at current prices.
Now if you're talking long term into the future, crypto should do well for the next 5-10 years as the technology matures and adoption grows but as with all "long term" investments, it should be re-evaluated every now and then. No one has a crystal ball that works very well.
We're now hearing the cries for government oversight and regulations. So much for decentralized, unregulated and outside government control.
Digital currency is already here and more so in our future but it will be one controlled, regulated, monitored and taxed by governments.
Interesting you should say this. Note that the problems and scams are associated with the centralized exchanges. Aside from software vulnerabilities, there's been no problems with the decentralized platforms. They are inherently safe because they never take possession of your crypto. The problems arise when you let someone else, such as a company in the Bahamas, control them.
@pmh1nic said:
First, it is not a currency. Few if any are using it as a currency due to the massive fluctuations in price. Tesla said it would accept Bitcoin as currency. That lasted about a week. Any store that accepted Bitcoin as payment immediately turn it into fiat not risking a drop in value.
By what definition? It is a medium of exchange by all definitions. I bought a burrito at Chipotle with ETH a few weeks ago. Many bullion dealers accept BTC as payment. Yes, stores in the US that accept BTC as payment convert it quickly because their accounting systems are in USD and their suppliers only take BTC. That doesn't mean it's not a currency but the definitions that come up on Google.
Second, these aren't just random names. These folks have been major influencers promoting Bitcoin as an investment. The term "store of value" carries with it the idea of long term even if you don't use the words long term. A huge number of folks that were sold on the Bitcoin utopia over the last two years would disagree with you. Over a trillion dollars of the estimated $1.6 trillion crypto cap has been wiped out over the last year. You had the $500 billion Binance hack.
Define long term. Most of the crying here is from what's happened over the past 2 years. Long term most of the top 10 crypto has done REALLY REALLY well. Do I need to tell you what BTC was selling for 10 years ago? Or what ETH was selling for when it launched? How about DOGE? Cardano? All of those are up massively even at current prices.
Now if you're talking long term into the future, crypto should do well for the next 5-10 years as the technology matures and adoption grows but as with all "long term" investments, it should be re-evaluated every now and then. No one has a crystal ball that works very well.
We're now hearing the cries for government oversight and regulations. So much for decentralized, unregulated and outside government control.
Digital currency is already here and more so in our future but it will be one controlled, regulated, monitored and taxed by governments.
Interesting you should say this. Note that the problems and scams are associated with the centralized exchanges. Aside from software vulnerabilities, there's been no problems with the decentralized platforms. They are inherently safe because they never take possession of your crypto. The problems arise when you let someone else, such as a company in the Bahamas, control them.
The fact that I can trade a pair of Air Jordan's for a suit doesn't make it a currency. The reason Bitcoin payments are immediately turned into fiat is because the value can fluctuate wildly. If. Bitcoin were stable there is no reason you couldn't hold it and continue to do your accounting in dollars. The value of Bitcoin is its equivalency in dollars.
The term long term can mean different things to different people. To a 21 year old 17 years may seem like long term. When it's a discussion of saving for retirement it's not. When discussing generational wealth its not.
You say the problems are related to centralized exchanges. You left out a word, unregulated. Why do those exchanges exist? Are those software vulnerabilities that have resulted in billions of dollars in loss to be overlooked?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
The fact that I can trade a pair of Air Jordan's for a suit doesn't make it a currency. The reason Bitcoin payments are immediately turned into fiat is because the value can fluctuate wildly. If. Bitcoin were stable there is no reason you couldn't hold it and continue to do your accounting in dollars. The value of Bitcoin is its equivalency in dollars.
You can invent or modify the definition of currency but Bitcoin is legal tender in El Salvador and I can purchase metals from APMEX and buy thing on quite a few website with my Bitcoin so I'm pretty sure that qualifies it as a currency. But your point is taken. An I don't know that it's a given that all companies accepting crypto immediately convert them. Whereas a typical US company probably doesn't think about managing its long US Dollar position (in as much as they constantly decide whether to convert the dollars to labor or inventory, etc), most companies are not sophisticated enough to manage multiple long investment positions. The same is probably true for companies who sell to Europe or Japan who decide to accept Euros or Yen. Those companies have to immediately sell for dollars or manage them.
The term long term can mean different things to different people. To a 21 year old 17 years may seem like long term. When it's a discussion of saving for retirement it's not. When discussing generational wealth its not.
OK. But does long term mean 'buy it and forget it?' Because that's truly long term but it's a terrible investment strategy. Anyone who bought real estate to sell for their retirement just had a nice run and should probably consider selling and moving the funds into something else with more upside, going on the logic that RE (in most places in the US) has gone up considerably and probably will not appreciate much further in what I would venture to say the next decade. The caveat being a drastic reduction in interest rates could heat the market up again but I don't see that happening.
You say the problems are related to centralized exchanges. You left out a word, unregulated. Why do those exchanges exist? Are those software vulnerabilities that have resulted in billions of dollars in loss to be overlooked?
The centralized exchanges in the US are certainly regulated. I can't say whether those regulations require the exchanges to hold customer assets 1:1, but they have plenty of other regulations to comply with.
Exchanges in other countries exist because there is international demand for them. Many of them do not feel the need to comply with US laws.
I'm not sure that the software vulnerabilities are to be overlooked. It's certainly a risk but it's pretty rare. It's also important to note that the risk isn't to the user, just to the exchange and those who deposit their assets to the liquidity pools for an ROI. There's no such thing as risk-free returns and this falls in that category. DEX risk can easily be avoided. As a minor point I don't think DEX losses have been in the Billions of dollars level, not that it matters.
Edited to add:
Regulation is not a magic cure, BTW. I lost money with Peregrine when they went bankrupt. People lost tons with Madoff. If Ameritrade or Fidelity go broke you will lose funds.
@pmh1nic said:
First, it is not a currency. Few if any are using it as a currency due to the massive fluctuations in price. Tesla said it would accept Bitcoin as currency. That lasted about a week. Any store that accepted Bitcoin as payment immediately turn it into fiat not risking a drop in value.
By what definition? It is a medium of exchange by all definitions. I bought a burrito at Chipotle with ETH a few weeks ago. Many bullion dealers accept BTC as payment. Yes, stores in the US that accept BTC as payment convert it quickly because their accounting systems are in USD and their suppliers only take BTC. That doesn't mean it's not a currency but the definitions that come up on Google.
Second, these aren't just random names. These folks have been major influencers promoting Bitcoin as an investment. The term "store of value" carries with it the idea of long term even if you don't use the words long term. A huge number of folks that were sold on the Bitcoin utopia over the last two years would disagree with you. Over a trillion dollars of the estimated $1.6 trillion crypto cap has been wiped out over the last year. You had the $500 billion Binance hack.
Define long term. Most of the crying here is from what's happened over the past 2 years. Long term most of the top 10 crypto has done REALLY REALLY well. Do I need to tell you what BTC was selling for 10 years ago? Or what ETH was selling for when it launched? How about DOGE? Cardano? All of those are up massively even at current prices.
Now if you're talking long term into the future, crypto should do well for the next 5-10 years as the technology matures and adoption grows but as with all "long term" investments, it should be re-evaluated every now and then. No one has a crystal ball that works very well.
We're now hearing the cries for government oversight and regulations. So much for decentralized, unregulated and outside government control.
Digital currency is already here and more so in our future but it will be one controlled, regulated, monitored and taxed by governments.
Interesting you should say this. Note that the problems and scams are associated with the centralized exchanges. Aside from software vulnerabilities, there's been no problems with the decentralized platforms. They are inherently safe because they never take possession of your crypto. The problems arise when you let someone else, such as a company in the Bahamas, control them.
I know a coin dealer who accepts multiple cryptos as payment on his website.
The fact that I can trade a pair of Air Jordan's for a suit doesn't make it a currency. The reason Bitcoin payments are immediately turned into fiat is because the value can fluctuate wildly. If. Bitcoin were stable there is no reason you couldn't hold it and continue to do your accounting in dollars. The value of Bitcoin is its equivalency in dollars.
You can invent or modify the definition of currency but Bitcoin is legal tender in El Salvador and I can purchase metals from APMEX and buy thing on quite a few website with my Bitcoin so I'm pretty sure that qualifies it as a currency. But your point is taken. An I don't know that it's a given that all companies accepting crypto immediately convert them. Whereas a typical US company probably doesn't think about managing its long US Dollar position (in as much as they constantly decide whether to convert the dollars to labor or inventory, etc), most companies are not sophisticated enough to manage multiple long investment positions. The same is probably true for companies who sell to Europe or Japan who decide to accept Euros or Yen. Those companies have to immediately sell for dollars or manage them.
The term long term can mean different things to different people. To a 21 year old 17 years may seem like long term. When it's a discussion of saving for retirement it's not. When discussing generational wealth its not.
OK. But does long term mean 'buy it and forget it?' Because that's truly long term but it's a terrible investment strategy. Anyone who bought real estate to sell for their retirement just had a nice run and should probably consider selling and moving the funds into something else with more upside, going on the logic that RE (in most places in the US) has gone up considerably and probably will not appreciate much further in what I would venture to say the next decade. The caveat being a drastic reduction in interest rates could heat the market up again but I don't see that happening.
You say the problems are related to centralized exchanges. You left out a word, unregulated. Why do those exchanges exist? Are those software vulnerabilities that have resulted in billions of dollars in loss to be overlooked?
The centralized exchanges in the US are certainly regulated. I can't say whether those regulations require the exchanges to hold customer assets 1:1, but they have plenty of other regulations to comply with.
Exchanges in other countries exist because there is international demand for them. Many of them do not feel the need to comply with US laws.
I'm not sure that the software vulnerabilities are to be overlooked. It's certainly a risk but it's pretty rare. It's also important to note that the risk isn't to the user, just to the exchange and those who deposit their assets to the liquidity pools for an ROI. There's no such thing as risk-free returns and this falls in that category. DEX risk can easily be avoided. As a minor point I don't think DEX losses have been in the Billions of dollars level, not that it matters.
Edited to add:
Regulation is not a magic cure, BTW. I lost money with Peregrine when they went bankrupt. People lost tons with Madoff. If Ameritrade or Fidelity go broke you will lose funds.
El Salvador? You've got to be kidding me. And yes, in those relatively few places you can buy using Bitcoin it gets immediately converted to dollars because those vendors know Bitcoin is unstable and they are not going to take the risk of ho!ding it.
Buy it and hold it is what Saylor was preaching. That's the kind of faith in the asset that evidently doesn't exist given the 50%+ tanking in the price. Most folks viewed it not as a currency but a get rich quick asset. That is why you saw the huge increase in price and the shallowness of that faith is why you've seen the massive decrease in value. It was not viewed as a currency or a long-term story of wealth.
Highly regulated? Tell that to the folks that entrusted tens billions to FTX, those that will never recover their money. I believe those plenty of other regulations are worthwhile when those that have lost billions are made whole.
Again, folks didn't flood into Bitcoin because they understood blockchain technology or the benefits of a decentralized currency. The rush into Bitcoin over the last two years was motivated by the hope for a 2x...10x return in six months. There were 101 so-called influencers on YouTube promoting it as such to young, naive individuals looking to make a profit fast.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
First, it is not a currency. Few if any are using it as a currency due to the massive fluctuations in price. Tesla said it would accept Bitcoin as currency. That lasted about a week. Any store that accepted Bitcoin as payment immediately turn it into fiat not risking a drop in value.
By what definition? It is a medium of exchange by all definitions. I bought a burrito at Chipotle with ETH a few weeks ago. Many bullion dealers accept BTC as payment. Yes, stores in the US that accept BTC as payment convert it quickly because their accounting systems are in USD and their suppliers only take BTC. That doesn't mean it's not a currency but the definitions that come up on Google.
Second, these aren't just random names. These folks have been major influencers promoting Bitcoin as an investment. The term "store of value" carries with it the idea of long term even if you don't use the words long term. A huge number of folks that were sold on the Bitcoin utopia over the last two years would disagree with you. Over a trillion dollars of the estimated $1.6 trillion crypto cap has been wiped out over the last year. You had the $500 billion Binance hack.
Define long term. Most of the crying here is from what's happened over the past 2 years. Long term most of the top 10 crypto has done REALLY REALLY well. Do I need to tell you what BTC was selling for 10 years ago? Or what ETH was selling for when it launched? How about DOGE? Cardano? All of those are up massively even at current prices.
Now if you're talking long term into the future, crypto should do well for the next 5-10 years as the technology matures and adoption grows but as with all "long term" investments, it should be re-evaluated every now and then. No one has a crystal ball that works very well.
We're now hearing the cries for government oversight and regulations. So much for decentralized, unregulated and outside government control.
Digital currency is already here and more so in our future but it will be one controlled, regulated, monitored and taxed by governments.
Interesting you should say this. Note that the problems and scams are associated with the centralized exchanges. Aside from software vulnerabilities, there's been no problems with the decentralized platforms. They are inherently safe because they never take possession of your crypto. The problems arise when you let someone else, such as a company in the Bahamas, control them.
I know a coin dealer who accepts multiple cryptos as payment on his website.
You know "a" coin dealer. Whoopi. Ask him how long he holds that crypto before converting it to dollars.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
First, it is not a currency. Few if any are using it as a currency due to the massive fluctuations in price. Tesla said it would accept Bitcoin as currency. That lasted about a week. Any store that accepted Bitcoin as payment immediately turn it into fiat not risking a drop in value.
By what definition? It is a medium of exchange by all definitions. I bought a burrito at Chipotle with ETH a few weeks ago. Many bullion dealers accept BTC as payment. Yes, stores in the US that accept BTC as payment convert it quickly because their accounting systems are in USD and their suppliers only take BTC. That doesn't mean it's not a currency but the definitions that come up on Google.
Second, these aren't just random names. These folks have been major influencers promoting Bitcoin as an investment. The term "store of value" carries with it the idea of long term even if you don't use the words long term. A huge number of folks that were sold on the Bitcoin utopia over the last two years would disagree with you. Over a trillion dollars of the estimated $1.6 trillion crypto cap has been wiped out over the last year. You had the $500 billion Binance hack.
Define long term. Most of the crying here is from what's happened over the past 2 years. Long term most of the top 10 crypto has done REALLY REALLY well. Do I need to tell you what BTC was selling for 10 years ago? Or what ETH was selling for when it launched? How about DOGE? Cardano? All of those are up massively even at current prices.
Now if you're talking long term into the future, crypto should do well for the next 5-10 years as the technology matures and adoption grows but as with all "long term" investments, it should be re-evaluated every now and then. No one has a crystal ball that works very well.
We're now hearing the cries for government oversight and regulations. So much for decentralized, unregulated and outside government control.
Digital currency is already here and more so in our future but it will be one controlled, regulated, monitored and taxed by governments.
Interesting you should say this. Note that the problems and scams are associated with the centralized exchanges. Aside from software vulnerabilities, there's been no problems with the decentralized platforms. They are inherently safe because they never take possession of your crypto. The problems arise when you let someone else, such as a company in the Bahamas, control them.
I know a coin dealer who accepts multiple cryptos as payment on his website.
You know "a" coin dealer. Whoopi. Ask him how long he holds that crypto before converting it to dollars.
Actually, a fairly long time for at least some of the revenues. He's a big believer in crypto and has extensive holdings. He's not the only business who accepts crypto.
@telephoto1 said: The Central African Republic and El Salvador have declared bitcoin legal tender.
Why not- what do they have to lose?
That is somewhat the point. However, it was a refutation that it is "not a currency". By definition, if two countries have declared it as legal tender, it IS a currency.
@pmh1nic said:
El Salvador? You've got to be kidding me. And yes, in those relatively few places you can buy using Bitcoin it gets immediately converted to dollars because those vendors know Bitcoin is unstable and they are not going to take the risk of ho!ding it.
OK, so what's your definition? Then would you not consider El Salvadore's colon, it's previous currency, to be a currency because it's a tiny country and for some reason not legitimate? It is a currency per the textbook definition and by virtue of the fact that I can buy lots of things with it.
A company accepting crypto can either manage the crypto holdings or immediately convert them. The lazy/easy way is to immediately convert them. But sophisticated companies manage their asset positions which may include other foreign currencies. These companies employ people to actively manage their positions rather then dumping everything for USD immediately, as during a bull market it might make sense to hold on.
Buy it and hold it is what Saylor was preaching. That's the kind of faith in the asset that evidently doesn't exist given the 50%+ tanking in the price. Most folks viewed it not as a currency but a get rich quick asset. That is why you saw the huge increase in price and the shallowness of that faith is why you've seen the massive decrease in value. It was not viewed as a currency or a long-term story of wealth.
Every asset class has its enthusiasts and crypto is no different. cough gold and silver bugs cough When any asset appreciates quickly it will attract lots of people looking to cash in. The recent decrease in price due to a number of factors. The "weak hands" gave up long ago. Over the last 18 months the USD index went on a massive run from 90 to 115. Anything priced in dollars has suffered unless it has been offset by other market forces such as low supply/high demand. This kind of a move in USD is a headwind that makes maintaining any price level extremely difficult.
Highly regulated? Tell that to the folks that entrusted tens billions to FTX, those that will never recover their money. I believe those plenty of other regulations are worthwhile when those that have lost billions are made whole.
First of all, FTX wasn't a US company. They did have a US branch of their website with much more limited trading options. And I never said FTX was highly regulated. Second, I provided two examples of regulation failing in the equities space (Madoff and Peregrine). Coinbase is a US exchange and they are very much regulated and even they have issued a statement that says that if they go broke, you might not get your funds back. This is why decentralized exchanges have value and appeal because you can eliminate third party risk.
Again, folks didn't flood into Bitcoin because they understood blockchain technology or the benefits of a decentralized currency. The rush into Bitcoin over the last two years was motivated by the hope for a 2x...10x return in six months. There were 101 so-called influencers on YouTube promoting it as such to young, naive individuals looking to make a profit fast.
Yep. Any asset that moves as quickly as BTC did will attract this kind of attention. What would happen if gold and silver suddenly went up 5x? I'm pretty sure the hucksters would come out of the woodwork and start promoting it and uninformed idiots will start buying silver coins from the home shopping network en masse. Are you suggesting the government should limit people's investing choices and decisions?
@pmh1nic said:
El Salvador? You've got to be kidding me. And yes, in those relatively few places you can buy using Bitcoin it gets immediately converted to dollars because those vendors know Bitcoin is unstable and they are not going to take the risk of ho!ding it.
OK, so what's your definition? Then would you not consider El Salvadore's colon, it's previous currency, to be a currency because it's a tiny country and for some reason not legitimate? It is a currency per the textbook definition and by virtue of the fact that I can buy lots of things with it.
A company accepting crypto can either manage the crypto holdings or immediately convert them. The lazy/easy way is to immediately convert them. But sophisticated companies manage their asset positions which may include other foreign currencies. These companies employ people to actively manage their positions rather then dumping everything for USD immediately, as during a bull market it might make sense to hold on.
Buy it and hold it is what Saylor was preaching. That's the kind of faith in the asset that evidently doesn't exist given the 50%+ tanking in the price. Most folks viewed it not as a currency but a get rich quick asset. That is why you saw the huge increase in price and the shallowness of that faith is why you've seen the massive decrease in value. It was not viewed as a currency or a long-term story of wealth.
Every asset class has its enthusiasts and crypto is no different. cough gold and silver bugs cough When any asset appreciates quickly it will attract lots of people looking to cash in. The recent decrease in price due to a number of factors. The "weak hands" gave up long ago. Over the last 18 months the USD index went on a massive run from 90 to 115. Anything priced in dollars has suffered unless it has been offset by other market forces such as low supply/high demand. This kind of a move in USD is a headwind that makes maintaining any price level extremely difficult.
Highly regulated? Tell that to the folks that entrusted tens billions to FTX, those that will never recover their money. I believe those plenty of other regulations are worthwhile when those that have lost billions are made whole.
First of all, FTX wasn't a US company. They did have a US branch of their website with much more limited trading options. And I never said FTX was highly regulated. Second, I provided two examples of regulation failing in the equities space (Madoff and Peregrine). Coinbase is a US exchange and they are very much regulated and even they have issued a statement that says that if they go broke, you might not get your funds back. This is why decentralized exchanges have value and appeal because you can eliminate third party risk.
Again, folks didn't flood into Bitcoin because they understood blockchain technology or the benefits of a decentralized currency. The rush into Bitcoin over the last two years was motivated by the hope for a 2x...10x return in six months. There were 101 so-called influencers on YouTube promoting it as such to young, naive individuals looking to make a profit fast.
Yep. Any asset that moves as quickly as BTC did will attract this kind of attention. What would happen if gold and silver suddenly went up 5x? I'm pretty sure the hucksters would come out of the woodwork and start promoting it and uninformed idiots will start buying silver coins from the home shopping network en masse. Are you suggesting the government should limit people's investing choices and decisions?
I think there is a difference in hyping assets that have held value for centuries versus hyping an asset that most people really don't understand and that has only been around for 17 years. Try as it might the global acceptance of Bitcoin has been minimal and those that do accept it, realizing the volatility of the "currency", immediately convert it back to fiat.
Beyond that the whole idea of a decentralized monetary system that is unregulated by the major governments of the world is a display of ignorance regarding why governments exist and the extent of their power, power that in large part extends from their ability to control monetary policy. This all sounds good to 21 year old college students but is foolishness to anyone that has a basic understanding of the global power structure. This is not a knock on blockchain technology and potential applications for that technology. It is a knock on the idea that that technology is the pathway to economic nirvana.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I have collected coins since I was 11 or so. I had an awakening of sorts. I lost 8K on Terra Luna....overnight - within 24 hours. The next week I went and splurged more than 8K on coins...which I never spend that much in such a short time frame.
I figured that if I was willing to throw away 8k gambling, I could also afford to spend 8K on a hobby I love and buying little pieces of numismatic art that would still be there and still retain most or all of their value. It was my punishment to myself.
I guess it takes losing a bunch of money that offers you nothing, to then realizing that spending a bunch of money that offers you a helluva lot more is much, much better.
@AUandAG said:
Mid 70's and I understand the crypto markets and just can't bring myself into investing real money into something that does not produce a product or service.
bob
There has been no such thing as 'real' money worldwide for decades.
@Cougar1978 said:
Not a speculator on crypto nor is it for me.
A friend in coin club borrowed money invest in coins in 89. Then came the 89 coin market crash and he had to file bankruptcy. But at least those still had a value even if just 20-40c on dollar. Could Crypto go to zero?
Lots of investors in FTX found out the hard way. I would never buy or invest in anything that hackers could access remotely. A sucker's bet imo. Yes, I know some have made out handsomely on these, but all Ponzi schems start out the same, and end the same.
@AUandAG said:
Mid 70's and I understand the crypto markets and just can't bring myself into investing real money into something that does not produce a product or service.
bob
There has been no such thing as 'real' money worldwide for decades.
@Cougar1978 said:
Not a speculator on crypto nor is it for me.
A friend in coin club borrowed money invest in coins in 89. Then came the 89 coin market crash and he had to file bankruptcy. But at least those still had a value even if just 20-40c on dollar. Could Crypto go to zero?
Lots of investors in FTX found out the hard way. I would never buy or invest in anything that hackers could access remotely. A sucker's bet imo. Yes, I know some have made out handsomely on these, but all Ponzi schems start out the same, and end the same.
You would "never buy or invest in anything that hackers could access remotely"...so you don't have a 401k, a checking account, a savings account, any stocks and you don't own a home (Google "title fraud"). Isn't it a little dangerous to have 100% of your assets in gold bricks?
@pmh1nic said:
I think there is a difference in hyping assets that have held value for centuries versus hyping an asset that most people really don't understand and that has only been around for 17 years. Try as it might the global acceptance of Bitcoin has been minimal and those that do accept it, realizing the volatility of the "currency", immediately convert it back to fiat.
What is the difference? Most people don't have a great understanding of most investments they make. From buying common date dipped Morgan and Peace dollars for $100+ to investing in startups and gambling in the highly regulated stock market, there's always been a lot of uneducated investment decisions going on. Crypto is just one more option in the grand scheme of things.
Beyond that the whole idea of a decentralized monetary system that is unregulated by the major governments of the world is a display of ignorance regarding why governments exist and the extent of their power, power that in large part extends from their ability to control monetary policy. This all sounds good to 21 year old college students but is foolishness to anyone that has a basic understanding of the global power structure. This is not a knock on blockchain technology and potential applications for that technology. It is a knock on the idea that that technology is the pathway to economic nirvana.
Crypto is sure a challenge to the global power structure, but as you pointed out the technology is young and we are probably just on the first iterations of something that will continue to evolve. One thing is certain: central bank currencies are doomed to fail. It's kind of nice to know that there is an alternative. And it's also nice to have a way to transfer value almost instantly across the globe with no 3rd party involvement, no 3rd party risk, and no censorship. It's pretty powerful when you think about it.
Comments
So are you expecting collectible coins to crash also? $500 for a silver dollar seems like an absurd bubble. There's less than $20 with of silver there.
I have met an advisor who said both. FWIW
And how did that work out for you?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
The government could make gold all but worthless with the stroke of a pen.
I already had Ethereum when I met him. As of today, I doubled my money and am still holding.
Congratulations!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Now ask me about my BABA stock.
Sorry, I know nothing about it. If I did, I'd probably be working in Wall Street.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
To be fair, the government could say gold is worthless but they don't have that kind of control over what people actually think about it or what they (people, not the government) choose to do with it.
That's equally true of crypto currencies. You can't stop 2 people from transferring crypto between each other - other than at the point of a gun. And you can't stop 2 people from transferring gold between each other - other than at the point of a gun. So, however you want to phrase it, the two asset classes are equivalent in that regard.
It's down 50% in the last year. LOL.
Bitcoin has NOT been a great store of wealth. Read the charts.
Bitcoin was touted as a currency. It was never a currency due to its volatility. "High alpha potential". What does that even mean?
The U.S. government IS going to have a digital currency that the vast majority will use and one they can monitor but it won't be Bitcoin.
If I worked on Wall Street, I'd be doing the insider trading thing! 🤣 😂
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Didn't say it wasn't. I was only responding to your comment that the government could make gold "all but worthless".
Carvana stock hasn't been either.
But it depends on when you buy it. Things go up, things go down. Your USD savings account has lost arguably 8% of its purchasing power in the last year and more over the decades so cash not a good store of value either.
Silver is down 50-60% from its peak in USD terms. But if you bought in the 00's you're pretty happy. Would have been hard to make the case for gold as a good store of value in 2001. Of course that was a great time to buy and you'd be thrilled if you bought BTC in the 2010.
It meets pretty much every definition of a currency. A currency doesn't have to be stable. Just ask Venezuela, or Russia, or Zimbabwe.
Alpha potential is ROI. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_(finance)
Correct. It will be a digital form of the US Dollar, likely interfchangeable.
The huge hype in Bitcoin has occurred over the last two year. Look at the annual chart. Anyone that purchased Bitcoin over the two years has lost money. Silver and gold have had it's ups and downs over the last year but they pale in comparison to what has occurred with Bitcoin. Silver and gold will never go to zero. There will always be value in them. The same can't be said about Bitcoin.
From Michael Saylor to Kevin O'Leary to Elon Musk to dozens of internet "influencers" that the under 30 crowd view as financial gurus.
That is not a proper citation. You are randomly naming names. It is already a currency. Where did they claim it was a store of wealth over the "long term"? Have we reached the "long term"? You could argue that over the "long term" BTC has shown itself to be an incredibly growth engine. You only point to the short term correction as evidence that is not.
I expected more from you. You're usual such a stickler for details and now you are mixing time frames and providing improper citations.
OK, so something's not a good store of value if it has gone down for the past 2 years? What if it recovers and proceeds to new highs? Will it be a good store of value then? My point is just that you can pick any asset and see the same thing. May 2020 Silver was at ~$14. April 2011 it was at $49, a 71% loss. July 2013 silver was at $19, a 62% loss in just over 2 years. Is silver a good store of value? Real estate is generally a good store of value but do you think it's wise to buy up a bunch a residential homes right now? Is it valid to cherry pick and limit time periods to make this argument?
I agree PMs will never go to zero and BTC can, but so also can securities and even US government bonds. What's the point? There's lots of ways to store value but they all have risks and they all have periods where they will go up or down in value. I'm not sure why crypto would be excluded from this category.
And that is why they are enforcing withdrawing "nothing"
https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/11/16/genesis-crypto-lending-unit-is-halting-customer-withdrawals-in-wake-of-ftx-collapse/
Genesis’ Crypto-Lending Unit Is Halting Customer Withdrawals in Wake of FTX Collapse The unit, known as Genesis Global Capital, serves an institutional client base and had $2.8 billion in total active loans as of the end of the third quarter of 2022.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
In my opinion, the great days of crypto is over. There may be some excitement in the industry, but nothing compared to what it used to be
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
Just like 1950D nickels.
Why do you say that?
Because crypto has had a large drop from all time highs just like every other asset class has done in the past? You must not remember the last big pull back in crypto from which everything recovered.
Or because of one fraudulent schemer? I guess we don't remember the other exchange collapses and hacks that also brought the crypto markets down but eventually recovered from?
Won't the coming regulation that allows institutions to invest custodial funds into crypto provide a massive source of new capital that could/will send prices higher? There's about to be a court ruling that most anticipate will provide legal support for cryptos not being securities which should embolden institutions to enter the space. The crypto market cap (under $1T) is tiny compared to other asset classes, it won't take much institutional money to move prices. Why wouldn't Wall Street be interested in playing in this new casino once they are allowed to do so? There are Billions and Trillions sitting in cash looking for investment, but what looks good right now? Real estate? Nope. Stocks? Nope. Bonds? Nope. Energy? Definitely not fossil fuels. Commodities? Maybe. Wall street money moves from sector to sector as things happen. There will be a point where crypto is going to be a great alternative to everything else and the sector will get hot again. Wait and see.
I guess your right, but right now im just sick of that "Bobby's Crypto Land" stuff, and yes scams.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
You left out two key words, long term. I realize perceptions can be manipulated by being selective in time frame. That said it was claimed that Bitcoin was a long term store of value. I don't believe you can legitimately make that claim given the relatively short history of Bitcoin. What has occurred over the last two years doesn't support that claim.
What if statements are statements of faith. What has occurred with Bitcoin and FTX over the last weeks and months don't give me a lot of faith in crypto as it is currently structured. Two of the major selling points of crypto were decentralized and unregulated. Both of those factors are not going to be carried over into the crypto that governments are going to support.
Yes, all stores of value have risk which is why you don't put all of your eggs in one basket. That said an asset that can gain and lose 50%+ of it's value in less than a year doesn't inspire great faith to keep investing in it. Those types of fluctuations tell me the price is easy to manipulate. You've never seen that type of fluctuation with gold and when it happened with silver it was via illegal manipulation.
First, it is not a currency. Few if any are using it as a currency due to the massive fluctuations in price. Tesla said it would accept Bitcoin as currency. That lasted about a week. Any store that accepted Bitcoin as payment immediately turn it into fiat not risking a drop in value.
Second, these aren't just random names. These folks have been major influencers promoting Bitcoin as an investment. The term "store of value" carries with it the idea of long term even if you don't use the words long term. A huge number of folks that were sold on the Bitcoin utopia over the last two years would disagree with you. Over a trillion dollars of the estimated $1.6 trillion crypto cap has been wiped out over the last year. You had the $500 billion Binance hack. We're now hearing the cries for government oversight and regulations. So much for decentralized, unregulated and outside government control.
Digital currency is already here and more so in our future but it will be one controlled, regulated, monitored and taxed by governments.
By what definition? It is a medium of exchange by all definitions. I bought a burrito at Chipotle with ETH a few weeks ago. Many bullion dealers accept BTC as payment. Yes, stores in the US that accept BTC as payment convert it quickly because their accounting systems are in USD and their suppliers only take BTC. That doesn't mean it's not a currency but the definitions that come up on Google.
Define long term. Most of the crying here is from what's happened over the past 2 years. Long term most of the top 10 crypto has done REALLY REALLY well. Do I need to tell you what BTC was selling for 10 years ago? Or what ETH was selling for when it launched? How about DOGE? Cardano? All of those are up massively even at current prices.
Now if you're talking long term into the future, crypto should do well for the next 5-10 years as the technology matures and adoption grows but as with all "long term" investments, it should be re-evaluated every now and then. No one has a crystal ball that works very well.
Interesting you should say this. Note that the problems and scams are associated with the centralized exchanges. Aside from software vulnerabilities, there's been no problems with the decentralized platforms. They are inherently safe because they never take possession of your crypto. The problems arise when you let someone else, such as a company in the Bahamas, control them.
The fact that I can trade a pair of Air Jordan's for a suit doesn't make it a currency. The reason Bitcoin payments are immediately turned into fiat is because the value can fluctuate wildly. If. Bitcoin were stable there is no reason you couldn't hold it and continue to do your accounting in dollars. The value of Bitcoin is its equivalency in dollars.
The term long term can mean different things to different people. To a 21 year old 17 years may seem like long term. When it's a discussion of saving for retirement it's not. When discussing generational wealth its not.
You say the problems are related to centralized exchanges. You left out a word, unregulated. Why do those exchanges exist? Are those software vulnerabilities that have resulted in billions of dollars in loss to be overlooked?
You can invent or modify the definition of currency but Bitcoin is legal tender in El Salvador and I can purchase metals from APMEX and buy thing on quite a few website with my Bitcoin so I'm pretty sure that qualifies it as a currency. But your point is taken. An I don't know that it's a given that all companies accepting crypto immediately convert them. Whereas a typical US company probably doesn't think about managing its long US Dollar position (in as much as they constantly decide whether to convert the dollars to labor or inventory, etc), most companies are not sophisticated enough to manage multiple long investment positions. The same is probably true for companies who sell to Europe or Japan who decide to accept Euros or Yen. Those companies have to immediately sell for dollars or manage them.
OK. But does long term mean 'buy it and forget it?' Because that's truly long term but it's a terrible investment strategy. Anyone who bought real estate to sell for their retirement just had a nice run and should probably consider selling and moving the funds into something else with more upside, going on the logic that RE (in most places in the US) has gone up considerably and probably will not appreciate much further in what I would venture to say the next decade. The caveat being a drastic reduction in interest rates could heat the market up again but I don't see that happening.
The centralized exchanges in the US are certainly regulated. I can't say whether those regulations require the exchanges to hold customer assets 1:1, but they have plenty of other regulations to comply with.
Exchanges in other countries exist because there is international demand for them. Many of them do not feel the need to comply with US laws.
I'm not sure that the software vulnerabilities are to be overlooked. It's certainly a risk but it's pretty rare. It's also important to note that the risk isn't to the user, just to the exchange and those who deposit their assets to the liquidity pools for an ROI. There's no such thing as risk-free returns and this falls in that category. DEX risk can easily be avoided. As a minor point I don't think DEX losses have been in the Billions of dollars level, not that it matters.
Edited to add:
Regulation is not a magic cure, BTW. I lost money with Peregrine when they went bankrupt. People lost tons with Madoff. If Ameritrade or Fidelity go broke you will lose funds.
I know a coin dealer who accepts multiple cryptos as payment on his website.
El Salvador? You've got to be kidding me. And yes, in those relatively few places you can buy using Bitcoin it gets immediately converted to dollars because those vendors know Bitcoin is unstable and they are not going to take the risk of ho!ding it.
Buy it and hold it is what Saylor was preaching. That's the kind of faith in the asset that evidently doesn't exist given the 50%+ tanking in the price. Most folks viewed it not as a currency but a get rich quick asset. That is why you saw the huge increase in price and the shallowness of that faith is why you've seen the massive decrease in value. It was not viewed as a currency or a long-term story of wealth.
Highly regulated? Tell that to the folks that entrusted tens billions to FTX, those that will never recover their money. I believe those plenty of other regulations are worthwhile when those that have lost billions are made whole.
Again, folks didn't flood into Bitcoin because they understood blockchain technology or the benefits of a decentralized currency. The rush into Bitcoin over the last two years was motivated by the hope for a 2x...10x return in six months. There were 101 so-called influencers on YouTube promoting it as such to young, naive individuals looking to make a profit fast.
You know "a" coin dealer. Whoopi. Ask him how long he holds that crypto before converting it to dollars.
On a positive note for the crypto evangelists of bitcoin, it now accounts for 98% of ransomware payouts.
Funny how all the Crypto ads on the radio have gone POOF
No more crypto IRA's etc...
With crypto down 80% you would think it would be the buying of a lifetime for your IRA.
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Actually, a fairly long time for at least some of the revenues. He's a big believer in crypto and has extensive holdings. He's not the only business who accepts crypto.
https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin/who-accepts/
But, of course, you don't really care about facts. That would get in the way of your bias.
https://ceoworld.biz/2022/08/05/top-10-countries-with-the-highest-rate-of-cryptocurrency-possession-in-2022/
The Central African Republic and El Salvador have declared bitcoin legal tender.
https://coinmarketcap.com/legal-tender-countries/
But, of course, you have a right to your biases and ignorance.
That is not the same as 98% of BTC use is for ransomeware.
98% of the drug trade is conducted in US dollars.
The Central African Republic and El Salvador have declared bitcoin legal tender.
Why not- what do they have to lose?
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That is somewhat the point. However, it was a refutation that it is "not a currency". By definition, if two countries have declared it as legal tender, it IS a currency.
Not really. 99% of the crypto ads on the radio were from FTX. I don't hear a lot of Kmart ads on the radio anymore either.
OK, so what's your definition? Then would you not consider El Salvadore's colon, it's previous currency, to be a currency because it's a tiny country and for some reason not legitimate? It is a currency per the textbook definition and by virtue of the fact that I can buy lots of things with it.
A company accepting crypto can either manage the crypto holdings or immediately convert them. The lazy/easy way is to immediately convert them. But sophisticated companies manage their asset positions which may include other foreign currencies. These companies employ people to actively manage their positions rather then dumping everything for USD immediately, as during a bull market it might make sense to hold on.
Every asset class has its enthusiasts and crypto is no different. cough gold and silver bugs cough When any asset appreciates quickly it will attract lots of people looking to cash in. The recent decrease in price due to a number of factors. The "weak hands" gave up long ago. Over the last 18 months the USD index went on a massive run from 90 to 115. Anything priced in dollars has suffered unless it has been offset by other market forces such as low supply/high demand. This kind of a move in USD is a headwind that makes maintaining any price level extremely difficult.
First of all, FTX wasn't a US company. They did have a US branch of their website with much more limited trading options. And I never said FTX was highly regulated. Second, I provided two examples of regulation failing in the equities space (Madoff and Peregrine). Coinbase is a US exchange and they are very much regulated and even they have issued a statement that says that if they go broke, you might not get your funds back. This is why decentralized exchanges have value and appeal because you can eliminate third party risk.
Yep. Any asset that moves as quickly as BTC did will attract this kind of attention. What would happen if gold and silver suddenly went up 5x? I'm pretty sure the hucksters would come out of the woodwork and start promoting it and uninformed idiots will start buying silver coins from the home shopping network en masse. Are you suggesting the government should limit people's investing choices and decisions?
I think there is a difference in hyping assets that have held value for centuries versus hyping an asset that most people really don't understand and that has only been around for 17 years. Try as it might the global acceptance of Bitcoin has been minimal and those that do accept it, realizing the volatility of the "currency", immediately convert it back to fiat.
Beyond that the whole idea of a decentralized monetary system that is unregulated by the major governments of the world is a display of ignorance regarding why governments exist and the extent of their power, power that in large part extends from their ability to control monetary policy. This all sounds good to 21 year old college students but is foolishness to anyone that has a basic understanding of the global power structure. This is not a knock on blockchain technology and potential applications for that technology. It is a knock on the idea that that technology is the pathway to economic nirvana.
I once thought about coin collecting and here I am.
I once thought about crypto, I laughed about it and then I forgot about it.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
The guys I play poker with laughed at me when I told them to buy Bitcoin at $400. Now I laugh at them.
Like the lottery, you gotta play to win.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I have collected coins since I was 11 or so. I had an awakening of sorts. I lost 8K on Terra Luna....overnight - within 24 hours. The next week I went and splurged more than 8K on coins...which I never spend that much in such a short time frame.
I figured that if I was willing to throw away 8k gambling, I could also afford to spend 8K on a hobby I love and buying little pieces of numismatic art that would still be there and still retain most or all of their value. It was my punishment to myself.
I guess it takes losing a bunch of money that offers you nothing, to then realizing that spending a bunch of money that offers you a helluva lot more is much, much better.
How do you end up with a small fortune in coins or crypto?........ You better start with a large fortune!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
There has been no such thing as 'real' money worldwide for decades.
Lots of investors in FTX found out the hard way. I would never buy or invest in anything that hackers could access remotely. A sucker's bet imo. Yes, I know some have made out handsomely on these, but all Ponzi schems start out the same, and end the same.
You would "never buy or invest in anything that hackers could access remotely"...so you don't have a 401k, a checking account, a savings account, any stocks and you don't own a home (Google "title fraud"). Isn't it a little dangerous to have 100% of your assets in gold bricks?
What is the difference? Most people don't have a great understanding of most investments they make. From buying common date dipped Morgan and Peace dollars for $100+ to investing in startups and gambling in the highly regulated stock market, there's always been a lot of uneducated investment decisions going on. Crypto is just one more option in the grand scheme of things.
Crypto is sure a challenge to the global power structure, but as you pointed out the technology is young and we are probably just on the first iterations of something that will continue to evolve. One thing is certain: central bank currencies are doomed to fail. It's kind of nice to know that there is an alternative. And it's also nice to have a way to transfer value almost instantly across the globe with no 3rd party involvement, no 3rd party risk, and no censorship. It's pretty powerful when you think about it.