for anyone in the space that hasn't done so, ensure you have redundant backups for your recovery phrases, private keys etc as once they are lost, any account and assets attached to them are lost until further notice as well.
this means if someone "hacks" the private keys (yes it is possible but very difficult) or gets a hold of them IRL from your office/pc or whatever, they can take over your account(s) and all those assets with nary a thing you can do about it.
i've seen many a person post to discords about losing access (i think mostly from clicking phishing links which are better now than they have ever been) to their account(s) and seeing all their tokens (crypto) and nfts get moved from their account to other accounts. it is all very easily traceable but the problem is access. tracking where the account owners are AND doing something about it is akin to climbing everest by yourself with no tanks during a storm. (yeah, that hard)
i've also seen people lose access from not having their backup phrases to disable/log in via 2FA also from losing their phones which 2FA is attached to.
so it may behoove you to go through these steps/cycles for verification before anything happens.
i am pretty sure that if you lose your phone that 2FA is attached to, so long as you have the recovery phrase, you can still get into the account(s) attached to whatever 2FA app you may have. since private keys and recovery phrases are static, not a bad idea to have them backed up on a usb stick in a sdb and/or printed out there as well. if you have them printed out at home for convenience, if anyone ever gets a hold of them, well, you're in trouble. even if you change the password/login info, those keys stay the same forever and you will need to abandon that account and start a new one and sever all connections to it. if they ever had full access, they could also do criminal activity with that account(s) somewhat like if someone piggybacks your wifi/hotspot. (some pretty intense court cases surrounding that stuff)
@Type2 said:
Everything waste something in life water, gas, time. We will never stop pointing the finger at any one or things that’s life.
I think it’s control if some one doesn’t have full control they feel it’s a start of them loosing control and it’s a bad thing for the one’s that are trying to stay in control.
Do this, as some one is driving grab the steering wheel see what they will do even if you just put your hand on it and do nothing they will snap after a bit of time and it’s because they want full control. They will not think of it as such but it is.
No.
People still do not get the energy consumption of blockchain.
Kudos to the crypto evangelists. they got "em drinking the koolaid.
@Type2 said:
Everything waste something in life water, gas, time. We will never stop pointing the finger at any one or things that’s life.
I think it’s control if some one doesn’t have full control they feel it’s a start of them loosing control and it’s a bad thing for the one’s that are trying to stay in control.
Do this, as some one is driving grab the steering wheel see what they will do even if you just put your hand on it and do nothing they will snap after a bit of time and it’s because they want full control. They will not think of it as such but it is.
No.
People still do not get the energy consumption of blockchain.
Kudos to the crypto evangelists. they got "em drinking the koolaid.
Blockchain is just a database system, It doesn't consume significantly more or less energy than any other database system.
@Type2 said:
Everything waste something in life water, gas, time. We will never stop pointing the finger at any one or things that’s life.
I think it’s control if some one doesn’t have full control they feel it’s a start of them loosing control and it’s a bad thing for the one’s that are trying to stay in control.
Do this, as some one is driving grab the steering wheel see what they will do even if you just put your hand on it and do nothing they will snap after a bit of time and it’s because they want full control. They will not think of it as such but it is.
No.
People still do not get the energy consumption of blockchain.
Kudos to the crypto evangelists. they got "em drinking the koolaid.
Blockchain is just a database system, It doesn't consume significantly more or less energy than any other database system.
just for the sake of a little more info, while a blockchain may or may not be a little less or more energy consuming than any other server farm, certainly the amount of high-end video cards which do consume a lot of power for mining/minting etc, i'd say even the best blockchains by extension with all the utilities/programs/games/services/minting/mining, probably do have a few that consume a lot of power (way more than average).
as far as i know, literally, mining efficiency (by those mining) is calculated by how much electricity costs (as well as the very expensive video cards) in any region, so there is that part. (mining rigs i've seen can have for high-end use, around 10-20 cards) i know from experience that minting/creating nft digital cards requires more resources (so the chain says and my wallet because it requests more resources, proof-of-stake in this case), so the blockchain model says. i don't think i can get on board to say that the average blockchain is as efficient energy-wise as other hardware hosting facilities for a few reasons but for sure this one, it is still new tech and from my experience, has a long way to go vis-a-vis, gas fees/staking or whatever they are called for whatever blockchain. the fees go up because demand of the tech/energy goes up (i'm sure this can be fudged like any system to bilk more money).
these can swing wildly and becomes outrageously expensive (compared to a chain's average) so seeing how anything that has a power usage to it, generator, alternator, server, refrigerator etc has an optimal power consumption and if not ran properly (software can greatly affect this with computer/server etc hardware which is where a big part of my gripe for chain tech resides), it is only logical that if it is not optimized (which imo, doesn't seem to be) it will consume much more.
i would say that while i am mostly on a blockchain that says it is carbon neutral (doesn't mean it isn't extremely inefficient and power hungry) and could just be finding ways to offset for the sake of being able to say that. (i think there may be some more conversation about offsetting and just what it means, including myself)
just one last thing and as an example and completely ficticous, lets say blockchain XYZ uses 10x what a nuclear power plant can produce, if that blockchain finds a way to offset by planting trees, investing in some geothermal energy etc, it still uses 10x what a nuclear power plant can produce, so i will state that offset isn't necessarily a good thing if the underlying problem is improperly designed/used etc. because it is still running extremely inefficient despite any offset it may also be participating in. another way is, lets say, i go pour 1000 gallons of used motor oil all around the coastlines of the usa, i have calculated that i do x, and x, and x and x, i am now carbon neutral, am i really?
@Type2 said:
Everything waste something in life water, gas, time. We will never stop pointing the finger at any one or things that’s life.
I think it’s control if some one doesn’t have full control they feel it’s a start of them loosing control and it’s a bad thing for the one’s that are trying to stay in control.
Do this, as some one is driving grab the steering wheel see what they will do even if you just put your hand on it and do nothing they will snap after a bit of time and it’s because they want full control. They will not think of it as such but it is.
No.
People still do not get the energy consumption of blockchain.
Kudos to the crypto evangelists. they got "em drinking the koolaid.
Blockchain is just a database system, It doesn't consume significantly more or less energy than any other database system.
just for the sake of a little more info, while a blockchain may or may not be a little less or more energy consuming than any other server farm, certainly the amount of high-end video cards which do consume a lot of power for mining/minting etc, i'd say even the best blockchains by extension with all the utilities/programs/games/services/minting/mining, probably do have a few that consume a lot of power (way more than average).
as far as i know, literally, mining efficiency (by those mining) is calculated by how much electricity costs (as well as the very expensive video cards) in any region, so there is that part. (mining rigs i've seen can have for high-end use, around 10-20 cards) i know from experience that minting/creating nft digital cards requires more resources (so the chain says and my wallet because it requests more resources, proof-of-stake in this case), so the blockchain model says. i don't think i can get on board to say that the average blockchain is as efficient energy-wise as other hardware hosting facilities for a few reasons but for sure this one, it is still new tech and from my experience, has a long way to go vis-a-vis, gas fees/staking or whatever they are called for whatever blockchain. the fees go up because demand of the tech/energy goes up (i'm sure this can be fudged like any system to bilk more money).
these can swing wildly and becomes outrageously expensive (compared to a chain's average) so seeing how anything that has a power usage to it, generator, alternator, server, refrigerator etc has an optimal power consumption and if not ran properly (software can greatly affect this with computer/server etc hardware which is where a big part of my gripe for chain tech resides), it is only logical that if it is not optimized (which imo, doesn't seem to be) it will consume much more.
i would say that while i am mostly on a blockchain that says it is carbon neutral (doesn't mean it isn't extremely inefficient and power hungry) and could just be finding ways to offset for the sake of being able to say that. (i think there may be some more conversation about offsetting and just what it means, including myself)
just one last thing and as an example and completely ficticous, lets say blockchain XYZ uses 10x what a nuclear power plant can produce, if that blockchain finds a way to offset by planting trees, investing in some geothermal energy etc, it still uses 10x what a nuclear power plant can produce, so i will state that offset isn't necessarily a good thing if the underlying problem is improperly designed/used etc. because it is still running extremely inefficient despite any offset it may also be participating in. another way is, lets say, i go pour 1000 gallons of used motor oil all around the coastlines of the usa, i have calculated that i do x, and x, and x and x, i am now carbon neutral, am i really?
whaddya think?
With all due respect, he mentioned blockchain which again is just a database. Cryptocurrency is a blockchain application.
I would highlight that your response delves into mining (proof of work) which some blockchains use to secure the data and process transactions, but not all of them do and most are transitioning away from.
Edited to add: You also should try to compare apples and apples as well. The server farms that process credit card and banking transactions are not insignificant, but they also are not as secure or decentralized, so comparison might not be fair. You could make the same arguments about the environmental impact of luxury cars versus their economy counterparts. Both accomplish the same thing but one does it better, or at least differently, so is it worth it the extra cost?
Finally, most mining farms have struck deals to use excess energy production that would otherwise go unused. Hard to say what percentage of the mining is done with "excess" energy but I would guess it's somewhere between 30 and 70% just because it's hard to be profitable (or reduces profits greatly) buying electricity in a competitive market at retail rates.
@Type2 said:
Everything waste something in life water, gas, time. We will never stop pointing the finger at any one or things that’s life.
I think it’s control if some one doesn’t have full control they feel it’s a start of them loosing control and it’s a bad thing for the one’s that are trying to stay in control.
Do this, as some one is driving grab the steering wheel see what they will do even if you just put your hand on it and do nothing they will snap after a bit of time and it’s because they want full control. They will not think of it as such but it is.
No.
People still do not get the energy consumption of blockchain.
Kudos to the crypto evangelists. they got "em drinking the koolaid.
"Proof of stake". Google it.
The energy consumption is not an issue moving forward. Does that mean you are now a supporter?
@Type2 said:
Everything waste something in life water, gas, time. We will never stop pointing the finger at any one or things that’s life.
I think it’s control if some one doesn’t have full control they feel it’s a start of them loosing control and it’s a bad thing for the one’s that are trying to stay in control.
Do this, as some one is driving grab the steering wheel see what they will do even if you just put your hand on it and do nothing they will snap after a bit of time and it’s because they want full control. They will not think of it as such but it is.
No.
People still do not get the energy consumption of blockchain.
Kudos to the crypto evangelists. they got "em drinking the koolaid.
Blockchain is just a database system, It doesn't consume significantly more or less energy than any other database system.
just for the sake of a little more info, while a blockchain may or may not be a little less or more energy consuming than any other server farm, certainly the amount of high-end video cards which do consume a lot of power for mining/minting etc, i'd say even the best blockchains by extension with all the utilities/programs/games/services/minting/mining, probably do have a few that consume a lot of power (way more than average).
as far as i know, literally, mining efficiency (by those mining) is calculated by how much electricity costs (as well as the very expensive video cards) in any region, so there is that part. (mining rigs i've seen can have for high-end use, around 10-20 cards) i know from experience that minting/creating nft digital cards requires more resources (so the chain says and my wallet because it requests more resources, proof-of-stake in this case), so the blockchain model says. i don't think i can get on board to say that the average blockchain is as efficient energy-wise as other hardware hosting facilities for a few reasons but for sure this one, it is still new tech and from my experience, has a long way to go vis-a-vis, gas fees/staking or whatever they are called for whatever blockchain. the fees go up because demand of the tech/energy goes up (i'm sure this can be fudged like any system to bilk more money).
these can swing wildly and becomes outrageously expensive (compared to a chain's average) so seeing how anything that has a power usage to it, generator, alternator, server, refrigerator etc has an optimal power consumption and if not ran properly (software can greatly affect this with computer/server etc hardware which is where a big part of my gripe for chain tech resides), it is only logical that if it is not optimized (which imo, doesn't seem to be) it will consume much more.
i would say that while i am mostly on a blockchain that says it is carbon neutral (doesn't mean it isn't extremely inefficient and power hungry) and could just be finding ways to offset for the sake of being able to say that. (i think there may be some more conversation about offsetting and just what it means, including myself)
just one last thing and as an example and completely ficticous, lets say blockchain XYZ uses 10x what a nuclear power plant can produce, if that blockchain finds a way to offset by planting trees, investing in some geothermal energy etc, it still uses 10x what a nuclear power plant can produce, so i will state that offset isn't necessarily a good thing if the underlying problem is improperly designed/used etc. because it is still running extremely inefficient despite any offset it may also be participating in. another way is, lets say, i go pour 1000 gallons of used motor oil all around the coastlines of the usa, i have calculated that i do x, and x, and x and x, i am now carbon neutral, am i really?
@Type2 said:
Everything waste something in life water, gas, time. We will never stop pointing the finger at any one or things that’s life.
I think it’s control if some one doesn’t have full control they feel it’s a start of them loosing control and it’s a bad thing for the one’s that are trying to stay in control.
Do this, as some one is driving grab the steering wheel see what they will do even if you just put your hand on it and do nothing they will snap after a bit of time and it’s because they want full control. They will not think of it as such but it is.
No.
People still do not get the energy consumption of blockchain.
Kudos to the crypto evangelists. they got "em drinking the koolaid.
"Proof of stake". Google it.
The energy consumption is not an issue moving forward. Does that mean you are now a supporter?
No because proof of stake has not scaled yet to prove reliability. Also it is less secure, its easy to become part of the network- low upfront costs.
Still the issue for me is what is the real purpose of crypto other then to bypass the financial systems. I do not need to do that but maybe other people want that option.
@fathom said:
No because proof of stake has not scaled yet to prove reliability. Also it is less secure, its easy to become part of the network- low upfront costs.
Not proven? Then you haven't done your homework. PRojects like PAC went POS in 2019 and have over 20,000 master nodes, zero security issues. How much larger and more time do you need?
Still the issue for me is what is the real purpose of crypto other then to bypass the financial systems. I do not need to do that but maybe other people want that option.
That's quite an American thing to say, people in other countries don't have it as easy as us. But why would you want to use the financial system if it can be avoided? Seems like the benefits are pretty clear. As as shop not having to give up 3% (or charge you 3% more) accept payments (and hope you don't get a charge back)? Not waiting days and paying ~$100 to send an international wire?
Or the ability so auto send micro-payments. Programmable money. There are a lot of applications you probably haven't considered.
@fathom said:
No because proof of stake has not scaled yet to prove reliability. Also it is less secure, its easy to become part of the network- low upfront costs.
Not proven? Then you haven't done your homework. PRojects like PAC went POS in 2019 and have over 20,000 master nodes, zero security issues. How much larger and more time do you need?
Still the issue for me is what is the real purpose of crypto other then to bypass the financial systems. I do not need to do that but maybe other people want that option.
That's quite an American thing to say, people in other countries don't have it as easy as us. But why would you want to use the financial system if it can be avoided? Seems like the benefits are pretty clear. As as shop not having to give up 3% (or charge you 3% more) accept payments (and hope you don't get a charge back)? Not waiting days and paying ~$100 to send an international wire?
Or the ability so auto send micro-payments. Programmable money. There are a lot of applications you probably haven't considered.
@vulcanize said:
Well, the premise of crypto being the begin all and end all for everything by not getting affected etc. just went out the window for the Russians.
@vulcanize said:
Well, the premise of crypto being the begin all and end all for everything by not getting affected etc. just went out the window for the Russians.
Then you don't understand crypto. While it may be harder now to convert crypto to fiat, peer-to-peer transactions cannot be stopped.
Well then, kindly explain to me as to how p2p transactions can happen if accounts are closed and only be allowed to withdraw their funds.
My point was that if policy changes due to geo-politics can ensure the unfortunate citizens of a country invested in it suddenly find themselves banned from future transactions for no fault of theirs other than being in a country at war, then isn't it all yet another "scheme"?
Precious metals too may face similar "confiscation" actions since the past has proven it.
Not meaning to get political at all but my point is crypto for the average investor is yet another facade and that's it.
@vulcanize said:
Well, the premise of crypto being the begin all and end all for everything by not getting affected etc. just went out the window for the Russians.
Then you don't understand crypto. While it may be harder now to convert crypto to fiat, peer-to-peer transactions cannot be stopped.
Well then, kindly explain to me as to how p2p transactions can happen if accounts are closed and only be allowed to withdraw their funds.
My point was that if policy changes due to geo-politics can ensure the unfortunate citizens of a country invested in it suddenly find themselves banned from future transactions for no fault of theirs other than being in a country at war, then isn't it all yet another "scheme"?
Precious metals too may face similar "confiscation" actions since the past has proven it.
Not meaning to get political at all but my point is crypto for the average investor is yet another facade and that's it.
While you can leave your crypto in the custody of a 3rd party which leaves you open to risks associated with any 3rd party, if you withdraw crypto to your own wallet, all you need is an internet connection to send your crypto somewhere, and there's nothing anyone can do about it, aside from terminating your internet connection.
It's comparable to buying gold and storing it with some vault service vs keeping it in your house. If it's in your house, no one can really stop you from doing what you want with it. If you let someone else hold your gold, well good luck with that.
While a government can associate a wallet with a verified account hosted by or associated with a company that does verification/KYC, once the funds are transferred away to private wallets, they can only make assumptions about who owns the wallets they are transferred to.
@ProofCollection said:
While you can leave your crypto in the custody of a 3rd party which leaves you open to risks associated with any 3rd party, if you withdraw crypto to your own wallet, all you need is an internet connection to send your crypto somewhere, and there's nothing anyone can do about it, aside from terminating your internet connection.
It's comparable to buying gold and storing it with some vault service vs keeping it in your house. If it's in your house, no one can really stop you from doing what you want with it. If you let someone else hold your gold, well good luck with that.
So you are basically agreeing with me that crypto is not the begin all or end all as claimed since it ain't protected/insulated and foolproof as many are foolishly led to believe, but pretty much open to getting swiped at the prevalent whim and fancy.
@ProofCollection said:
While you can leave your crypto in the custody of a 3rd party which leaves you open to risks associated with any 3rd party, if you withdraw crypto to your own wallet, all you need is an internet connection to send your crypto somewhere, and there's nothing anyone can do about it, aside from terminating your internet connection.
It's comparable to buying gold and storing it with some vault service vs keeping it in your house. If it's in your house, no one can really stop you from doing what you want with it. If you let someone else hold your gold, well good luck with that.
So you are basically agreeing with me that crypto is not the begin all or end all as claimed since it ain't protected/insulated and foolproof as many are foolishly led to believe, but pretty much open to getting swiped at the prevalent whim and fancy.
I don't know who claimed it was the "begin all or end all." Everything has benefits, vulnerabilities, strengths, and weaknesses.
Explain to me as to how one would go about getting funds back - say there was an emergency or payments need to be made and one has to withdraw - in such a scenario.
Explain to me as to how one would go about getting funds back - say there was an emergency or payments need to be made and one has to withdraw - in such a scenario.
Explain to me as to how one would go about getting funds back - say there was an emergency or payments need to be made and one has to withdraw - in such a scenario.
That's why you don't leave your crypto, cash, or gold in other people's control.
That's the "gubmint folks" and the rabbit hole does go way deeper because of the place being part of a money laundering drug operation, but this FTX scenario is a totally different kettle of fish.
Explain to me as to how one would go about getting funds back - say there was an emergency or payments need to be made and one has to withdraw - in such a scenario.
That's why you don't leave your crypto, cash, or gold in other people's control.
That's the "gubmint folks" and the rabbit hole does go way deeper because of the place being part of a money laundering drug operation, but this FTX scenario is a totally different kettle of fish.
It isn't though. It illustrates that it doesn't matter what asset you're talking about, if you don't have it in your possession you can wake up and it's gone. Whether the bank goes out of business, the FBI raids it, if you store your PMs with a third party, if you invest cash with Bernie Madoff...
Fascinating.
I’m learning so much. Thanks. Glad I’m a coin collector 😁
My wisest advisers told me way back “it’s a GD pyramid scheme “.
I shall watch and study but from what I’m seeing, they were correct. 🧐
@Jzyskowski1 said:
Fascinating.
I’m learning so much. Thanks. Glad I’m a coin collector 😁
My wisest advisers told me way back “it’s a GD pyramid scheme “.
I shall watch and study but from what I’m seeing, they were correct. 🧐
Those are the comments of people who usually haven't fully endeavored to research and understand crypto. If one can't see the value and utility of "programmable money" then give it a few years and you will understand. People probably said similar things about the internet in the early 90's.
There are good cryptos and bad cryptos, just like there are good stocks and bad stocks. You also have to realize the limitations of the perspectives of Americans. We are fortunate that our financial system is fairly robust and trustworthy that it's easy to not see the need or value that crypto provides. If you live in or do business in some of these lesser-developed countries, the utility and value is more obvious.
For a simpler application though, have you tried sending an international wire transfer? Nothing compares to the ease of sending a Bitcoin compared to a trip to the bank (only during M-F 9a-5p), paying about $100, and then waiting for it to be processed and received and processed again.
You can shun it for now, but eventually everybody will be using it. And just like the Internet, it will become easier and easier to use as the technology evolves. The Federal Reserve will be introducing a digital dollar very soon, and it will be a form of crypto. There is no escape.
Every country on the planet should make this crypto and nft illegal. It burns through ridiculous amounts of electricity. High end video boards are damaged by running wide open 24/7 doing mining. The video boards have to be replaced regularly. Think three months to a year. You do not want to buy used high end video boards because it may have been used for mining and been seriously damaged. A few people get rich off this stuff, but all of us have to deal with the damage to the planet.
I mined for 3 years, used the same cards the whole time and added new ones opportunistically. They were fine lol. Matter of a fact, the 3080 I used for about a year is my primary gaming GPU now. Nothing like playing stuff like Cyberpunk on max settings with dual monitors.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I am 61 years old so i have been collecting coins for awhile. I also speculate in the crypto market. Honestly dont understand it but try to follow the trend on popular coins. I think crypto is here to stay butnot sure how i could justify spending 60k per coin on something i never see or hold.
Crypto is having some rough sledding lately. As I type this, Bitcoin is 17,196.
The thing about crypto is that "poof, it's gone" can become a reality practically overnight.
That doesn't mean I won't dip my toe into the pond sometime, but I'd rather know that my assets are real.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Crypto is having some rough sledding lately. As I type this, Bitcoin is 17,196.
The thing about crypto is that "poof, it's gone" can become a reality practically overnight.
That doesn't mean I won't dip my toe into the pond sometime, but I'd rather know that my assets are real.
Real. You mean like a share of Enron? That's of course where PM's and real estate shine. Every asset has its pros and cons. Not all assets are for all people.
The Federal Reserve will be introducing a digital dollar very soon, and it will be a form of crypto.
Define "very soon".
Tomorrow? Next week, next month, next year?
The crypto universe is and was built on vague promises of future performance.
Let's here some specifics.
This is not an attack against you @ProofCollection - rather I reject the premise of crypto as a mainstream financial instrument. It serves a very limited purpose, the inherent risk of which far outweighs its utility as currency. So when will we see the Feds' digital currency?
PS: I read some time ago that WalMart workers can opt to be paid in WalMart gift cards. Strange but true. So I'll believe anything - when I see it.
Hard to say when the fed will get around to anything. Real ID has taken years longer than anyone expected. Other countries have launched or about to launch their digital currencies. I expect Fed coin will probably be in use in 5 years, maybe at an institutional level first then phased in to the rest of the population over 5 more years.
It's absurd to believe that the existing system of middlemen and third party services will be around much longer when a solution like crypto exists:
Checks: You get a piece of paper in the mail and you hope it's good when you make a trip to the bank and deposit it. Generally you have to mail them if the payee isn't in front of you.
Visa/MC: These leaches take ~2-3% of every transaction
Wires: High fees, can be time consuming, only can be done through a bank, still generally takes a day or at least a few hours.
Cash: Hard to use cash to pay someone who's not in front of you
Cashapp/Zelle/etc: This is probably the best payment method available with speed and no fees, but you are still dependent on these third parties who can close your account and take your funds on a whim. It's unclear to me how these networks make money.
Contrast to crypto where the transactions are almost instant with no middlemen and (in most cases) only tiny network fees, and no third party risk. Do you really think this isn't the future and 20, 40, 60 years from now we'll still be paying with the 5 methods above?
Finally, I understand. Your 20-40-60 years mention was the answer. I’m 70 and I’ll be dead.
Now my heirs are another matter. I will let that be their world.
Thanks. Appreciate your explanation.
I will never in this life or the next be part of this scam. Selling me air and claiming it to be valuable is similar to ah, peeing on me and telling me it’s raining. 😁
I’ve got my peeps on the ground helping find homies lost Zip drive with his gazillion dollar crypto.
Let’s go to the field and get a report.” Any luck? No, keep digging 🙀😁
@hvellente said:
OK, to me, 5 years isn't "very soon", but I appreciate the clarification.
That's a generous estimate. I think it could be sooner but things always take longer than you expect.
Yes, Real ID has taken years longer than anticipated. That's a fantastic example of a fairly obvious idea that is far more difficult to implement than anticipated. Seventeen years and counting... and some of us will just use a passport anyway. So, what's the hold-up on the Feds digital dollar? Lack of interest and utility. Not saying it won't happen, but it won't subsume other forms of payment, it would just augment them.
The hold up isn't lack of interest and utility. The gov't very much wants it as it will provide an unprecedented amount of control and tracking. The problem is that a monumental shift like this involves a lot of infrastructure and probably even some legislation. Imagine that every government and bank computer system must be integrated with the new crypto payment system, and designed so that it can work in parallel with the old system for a while. Then you have testing and training. That doesn't happen quickly.
And lest you continue to think that there's lack of interest in crypto, if you follow the topic, all of the big name banks have been investing heavily in developing crypto capabilities. JP Morgan, Visa, Mastercard, Citibank, etc. The hold up really is uncertainty from regulators which will eventually get resolved.
Re: the 5 forms of payment you described... True, all those forms of payment have trasaction costs, opportunity costs, risks, benefits, etc etc. But, all forms of crypto have the exact same problems, only their adherents can't see them.
Which of those problems does crypto have? It's nearly instant, no middle man, and tiny transaction costs.
Right now, crypto is a shiny toy. It serves no real-world purpose better than any other form of payment.
I beg to differ. If you regularly imported hand made goods from Africa or exported crops or goods to Asia, you would quickly find that crypto is a superior way of sending and receiving payments.
It has costs, it can be stolen, it can be traced, it can be taxed, and it can be lost. And, as crypto gains wider acceptance over the next decade or two, I foresee a world in which crypto is controlled and taxed by the very financial and governmental institutions crypto is meant to circumvent. And there go all the purported benefits of crypto.
I don't know why you say it's meant to circumvent taxation and control and why you think that circumventing taxation and control is a primary "purported benefit." It's an inherent possibility with any form of direct transaction similar to cash and barter. While some are excited or inspired by the possibilities I'm not sure anyone is promoting these properties of crypto as purported benefits. In many ways, Crypto is no different than a stack of federal reserve notes with the exception that a) being digital, you can transact with anyone across the globe any time of day in a matter of seconds and paying very little in fees (all other methods take hours or days and have significant fees) b) No one can censor the transaction (if done right) c) You can program transactions, such as what I describe below and loans as another example d) micro transactions become feasible (see how much it costs to send someone in another state $0.50 not using crypto).
Here's a real-use crypto application that will probably be developed some day:
A power company must finance the generation and transmission of electricity for 45 days or more. They don't get paid for the electricity you consume on day 1 of your billing period until probably 45 days later on average. This ties up millions of dollars in capital and we as consumers ultimately end up paying for this float/financing. Power companies also lose money due to people who don't pay. If you had a power meter that you kept loaded with crypto dollars that automatically sent payment every night via a smart contract, this cost goes away and saves your utility company millions of dollars that hopefully gets passed along to you or allows them to charge lower rates. Additionally, the power company would know your balance so they could automatically shut off power when you ran out of money thus eliminating bad accounts and collections.
@hvellente said:
OK, to me, 5 years isn't "very soon", but I appreciate the clarification.
That's a generous estimate. I think it could be sooner but things always take longer than you expect.
Yes, Real ID has taken years longer than anticipated. That's a fantastic example of a fairly obvious idea that is far more difficult to implement than anticipated. Seventeen years and counting... and some of us will just use a passport anyway. So, what's the hold-up on the Feds digital dollar? Lack of interest and utility. Not saying it won't happen, but it won't subsume other forms of payment, it would just augment them.
The hold up isn't lack of interest and utility. The gov't very much wants it as it will provide an unprecedented amount of control and tracking. The problem is that a monumental shift like this involves a lot of infrastructure and probably even some legislation. Imagine that every government and bank computer system must be integrated with the new crypto payment system, and designed so that it can work in parallel with the old system for a while. Then you have testing and training. That doesn't happen quickly.
And lest you continue to think that there's lack of interest in crypto, if you follow the topic, all of the big name banks have been investing heavily in developing crypto capabilities. JP Morgan, Visa, Mastercard, Citibank, etc. The hold up really is uncertainty from regulators which will eventually get resolved.
Re: the 5 forms of payment you described... True, all those forms of payment have trasaction costs, opportunity costs, risks, benefits, etc etc. But, all forms of crypto have the exact same problems, only their adherents can't see them.
Which of those problems does crypto have? It's nearly instant, no middle man, and tiny transaction costs.
Right now, crypto is a shiny toy. It serves no real-world purpose better than any other form of payment.
I beg to differ. If you regularly imported hand made goods from Africa or exported crops or goods to Asia, you would quickly find that crypto is a superior way of sending and receiving payments.
It has costs, it can be stolen, it can be traced, it can be taxed, and it can be lost. And, as crypto gains wider acceptance over the next decade or two, I foresee a world in which crypto is controlled and taxed by the very financial and governmental institutions crypto is meant to circumvent. And there go all the purported benefits of crypto.
I don't know why you say it's meant to circumvent taxation and control and why you think that circumventing taxation and control is a primary "purported benefit." It's an inherent possibility with any form of direct transaction similar to cash and barter. While some are excited or inspired by the possibilities I'm not sure anyone is promoting these properties of crypto as purported benefits. In many ways, Crypto is no different than a stack of federal reserve notes with the exception that a) being digital, you can transact with anyone across the globe any time of day in a matter of seconds and paying very little in fees (all other methods take hours or days and have significant fees) b) No one can censor the transaction (if done right) c) You can program transactions, such as what I describe below and loans as another example d) micro transactions become feasible (see how much it costs to send someone in another state $0.50 not using crypto).
Here's a real-use crypto application that will probably be developed some day:
A power company must finance the generation and transmission of electricity for 45 days or more. They don't get paid for the electricity you consume on day 1 of your billing period until probably 45 days later on average. This ties up millions of dollars in capital and we as consumers ultimately end up paying for this float/financing. Power companies also lose money due to people who don't pay. If you had a power meter that you kept loaded with crypto dollars that automatically sent payment every night via a smart contract, this cost goes away and saves your utility company millions of dollars that hopefully gets passed along to you or allows them to charge lower rates. Additionally, the power company would know your balance so they could automatically shut off power when you ran out of money thus eliminating bad accounts and collections.
Well now. That’s quite a pontification but you’re overlooking the obvious. The wild swings in value doesn’t lend itself to a stable value as a form of payment. 🙀
Well now. That’s quite a pontification but you’re overlooking the obvious. The wild swings in value doesn’t lend itself to a stable value as a form of payment. 🙀
Au contraire. Swings in value don't affect the use case for payments as much as it does for storing value. If you convert to fiat before sending and after receiving, risk of fluctuation is minimal.
You also overlook the fact that there are several cryptos that are pegged to fiat that do not fluctuate materially that make excellent candidates for using for transactions.
@hvellente said:
OK, to me, 5 years isn't "very soon", but I appreciate the clarification.
That's a generous estimate. I think it could be sooner but things always take longer than you expect.
It won't be sooner. Here's why:
You mentioned Real ID earlier... 17 years and counting. And that was just for an upgrade to our drivers licenses. I am quite confident that the introduction of a digital dollar would take far longer, require many billions of dollars of infrastructure investment, years of lawsuits, counter-suits, etc etc. No, it doesn't happen quickly. It takes even longer when there is NO widespread interest or utility. The Federal Digital Dollar is a fringe concept. Interesting, perhaps useful, but so far removed from necessity that it will not occur any time soon. Just look at the penny ("one-cent coin" for my punctilious collector friends). Some folks have advocated for 50 YEARS to stop producing the penny. Yet here we are, pumping them out by the billions every year. Doesn't make sense, but here we are. Because there is no widespread interest in discontinuing the coin. The economics and enviromental arguments all support dumping the coin, but the average person has no opinion on the matter, and, even though the subject has been discussed on the floor of Congress many times, here we are, ass deep in zinc.
It's not a fringe concept at all. China is already testing it's version as are many other countries. The US will be left behind if we don't get something going soon. https://time.com/6084146/china-digital-rmb-currency/
Crypto is not new. Bitcoin, for example, is almost 14 years old. It's not going away, but the market is mature and well-defined. There is some room for growth and innovation but the fever is gone. The Feds have very little interest in a digital dollar. The moment has passed. Interest has come and gone. It was a fad. Crypto was a hot topic last year. The world dumped money into the farce and the prices jumped. That was a short-term bump. Prices have collapsed over the last year, and even though there is a lot of room for growth the crash scared away the common user. A fed digital dollar could and would supplement every other existing form of payment, but will never supplant cash and credit. The purported benefits do not scale well. No middle-man? Not for long. Crypto is ripe for regulating and that means a middle-man and that would be either a government agency or a regulated financial institution both of which would impose large fees.
I don't think you understand technology maturity models. We are probably at around the equivalent of the 2001 Internet tech crash. You might remember the same sentiments about the internet and internet stocks like Pets.com. It took the Internet about 25 years to mature its capabilities to where we are now. 2001 would have been a great time to buy Amazon stock. I would say roughly the internet took from 1990-2015 to mature (although the Internet existed well before 1990), as it would be about 7 years ago when my parents finally started become regular users of the Internet. It took that long to evolve programming languages and apps and bandwidth and computing power to get to where we have the modern Internet experience. Crypto needs the same ramp up.
You also don't understand how crypto works. While crypto is software and can be reprogrammed, no existing decentralized crypto project is going to insert a middleman. The only regulation and control will be at the end points, where users convert fiat to crypto and back, and probably with issuance of new crypto currencies. Crypto will scale up just fine, just like Internet bandwidth has over the years. Many crypto projects are unregulateable as any control is outside of US borders or too decentralized.
Which of those problems does crypto have? It's nearly instant, no middle man, and tiny transaction costs.
All the other forms of payment you mentioned also started with great fanfare. Look at the history of credit cards, ATMs, PayPal, etc. They all start off with no regulation, no fees, great promise... then come the middle men and the regulations and the fraud and the taxes and the fees etc etc. Crypto certainly has a place in this world, but crypto does not scale well. The bigger it gets the more it needs to be regulated and the less useful it becomes. The middle men and large transaction fees will follow, that's why all the large banks invested in crypto, to ensure their role in the game.
Again, crypto will scale just fine. The earliest projects have and had some capacity issues but it's software and there are fixes. There are higher capacity networks coming and in the works. It's a little naive to suggest that a software and computing problem has an upper limit that can't or won't be overcome.
I beg to differ. If you regularly imported hand made goods from Africa or exported crops or goods to Asia, you would quickly find that crypto is a superior way of sending and receiving payments.
Funny you should mention that! I, in fact, did manage a warehouse that shipped goods to Africa. I started on the warehouse floor and worked my way up. I'd love to tell stories of all the fraud involved in international shipping (we used to slip VCRs, liquor, and other gifts into the containers as gifts to our clients, one company was caught hiding a BMW under pallets of paper goods, slip an envelope to the Customs inspector and he'll sign anything as he puts his hot wax on the container lock), but that's too off-topic. What I will say is that the preferred method of payment was WIRE or a suitcase filled with cash. Yes, we shipped millions of dollars in cash back and forth every year. Never lost anything and didn't care. It was all insured. Wells Fargo did most of the shipping. It wasn't free, but that's the cost of doing business. Crypto could certainly work in that scenario, but its no better, safer, cheaper, or faster than Wire or Cash. What am I going to do with a million bucks in Bitcoin? Can't spend it anywhere! And what if the price drops overnight? That's not a risk that the average business can accept. We'd rather spend money on armed guards and insurance than risk losing large percentages in crypto. The US dollar, for all its problems, is far more stable than crypto ever will be.
How would sending $1M in Tether (crypto dollars) for a ~$10 transaction fee in minutes not be faster, safer, or cheaper than sending a dude with a suitcase of cash? It takes at least a day to fly to Africa, $1000 or more in airfare, meals, lodging, more for a salary, more for insurance, and that doesn't take into account all of the cash management expenses. The extra cost clearly didn't bother you but why spend what must have been $3000+ and wait days when you can spend $10?
Here's a real-use crypto application that will probably be developed some day:
A power company must finance the generation and transmission of electricity for 45 days or more. They don't get paid for the electricity you consume on day 1 of your billing period until probably 45 days later on average. This ties up millions of dollars in capital and we as consumers ultimately end up paying for this float/financing. Power companies also lose money due to people who don't pay. If you had a power meter that you kept loaded with crypto dollars that automatically sent payment every night via a smart contract, this cost goes away and saves your utility company millions of dollars that hopefully gets passed along to you or allows them to charge lower rates. Additionally, the power company would know your balance so they could automatically shut off power when you ran out of money thus eliminating bad accounts and collections.
The utility company you describe above doesn't float the cost of production and transmission, it's a far more complicated economy than we should describe here ... But I will say that we could do the exact same thing with existing technology. It's called pre-paid billing. Utilities could demand a deposit (cash, check, or credit card), held in escrow, and they could draw against the escrow to fund utility production and transmission.
Or, they could do it the old-fashioned way: a metered box in the house! That's right... pay as you go. My wife is from Ireland and a few years ago we visited her old house. Right next to the front door was a metal box attached to the electrical meter. They would feed punt and 50p coins into the meter to buy electricity throughout the day. Once a month the meter man come out to collect the coins. They did the same thing at Uni. Students had to drop 20p coins in the slot to get hot water in the dorm showers. They eventually switched to pre-paid billing through the bursar's office, but that's some great old-school tech!
Not exactly the same thing. The overhead of sending someone around to collect payments from the boxes negates any benefits. And prepaying involves the consumer becoming a creditor. The advantage of the crypto is that the programmed accounting and tiny transaction fees make it feasible to collect a small payment, such as $3-5 every day with almost no overhead. And in the case of solar, payments could flow the other direction too if production exceeded demand.
Anyway, like I said, crypto serves a purpose, but its widespread utility is greatly exaggerated and the purported benefits are transitory at best. The fees and middle men are coming for you. They always do.
Again, the utility is easier to see in places without robust and reliable banking services. We have to stop thinking of crypto from the US mindset. You really should take some time to understand how some of these crypto networks operate and you'll see that there will be no fees or middlemen coming. That doesn't mean that some new and popular project won't have these fees and middlemen, but it will be hard for such a network to compete with the networks that already exist if there aren't any advantages to them.
I wish you all the luck in the world with your crypto, I hope you get rich and save the planet, but I'll believe it when I see it. It's been 14 years since BitCoin launched and still nothing...
14 years is not enough time for a technology to go from birth to widespread adoption. I respect your viewpoint and look forward to proving you wrong.
Comments
Ugh. Over 2 hours? What's the TLDW?
for anyone in the space that hasn't done so, ensure you have redundant backups for your recovery phrases, private keys etc as once they are lost, any account and assets attached to them are lost until further notice as well.
this means if someone "hacks" the private keys (yes it is possible but very difficult) or gets a hold of them IRL from your office/pc or whatever, they can take over your account(s) and all those assets with nary a thing you can do about it.
i've seen many a person post to discords about losing access (i think mostly from clicking phishing links which are better now than they have ever been) to their account(s) and seeing all their tokens (crypto) and nfts get moved from their account to other accounts. it is all very easily traceable but the problem is access. tracking where the account owners are AND doing something about it is akin to climbing everest by yourself with no tanks during a storm. (yeah, that hard)
i've also seen people lose access from not having their backup phrases to disable/log in via 2FA also from losing their phones which 2FA is attached to.
so it may behoove you to go through these steps/cycles for verification before anything happens.
i am pretty sure that if you lose your phone that 2FA is attached to, so long as you have the recovery phrase, you can still get into the account(s) attached to whatever 2FA app you may have. since private keys and recovery phrases are static, not a bad idea to have them backed up on a usb stick in a sdb and/or printed out there as well. if you have them printed out at home for convenience, if anyone ever gets a hold of them, well, you're in trouble. even if you change the password/login info, those keys stay the same forever and you will need to abandon that account and start a new one and sever all connections to it. if they ever had full access, they could also do criminal activity with that account(s) somewhat like if someone piggybacks your wifi/hotspot. (some pretty intense court cases surrounding that stuff)
HOPE IT HELPS!
No.
People still do not get the energy consumption of blockchain.
Kudos to the crypto evangelists. they got "em drinking the koolaid.
Blockchain is just a database system, It doesn't consume significantly more or less energy than any other database system.
just for the sake of a little more info, while a blockchain may or may not be a little less or more energy consuming than any other server farm, certainly the amount of high-end video cards which do consume a lot of power for mining/minting etc, i'd say even the best blockchains by extension with all the utilities/programs/games/services/minting/mining, probably do have a few that consume a lot of power (way more than average).
as far as i know, literally, mining efficiency (by those mining) is calculated by how much electricity costs (as well as the very expensive video cards) in any region, so there is that part. (mining rigs i've seen can have for high-end use, around 10-20 cards) i know from experience that minting/creating nft digital cards requires more resources (so the chain says and my wallet because it requests more resources, proof-of-stake in this case), so the blockchain model says. i don't think i can get on board to say that the average blockchain is as efficient energy-wise as other hardware hosting facilities for a few reasons but for sure this one, it is still new tech and from my experience, has a long way to go vis-a-vis, gas fees/staking or whatever they are called for whatever blockchain. the fees go up because demand of the tech/energy goes up (i'm sure this can be fudged like any system to bilk more money).
these can swing wildly and becomes outrageously expensive (compared to a chain's average) so seeing how anything that has a power usage to it, generator, alternator, server, refrigerator etc has an optimal power consumption and if not ran properly (software can greatly affect this with computer/server etc hardware which is where a big part of my gripe for chain tech resides), it is only logical that if it is not optimized (which imo, doesn't seem to be) it will consume much more.
i would say that while i am mostly on a blockchain that says it is carbon neutral (doesn't mean it isn't extremely inefficient and power hungry) and could just be finding ways to offset for the sake of being able to say that. (i think there may be some more conversation about offsetting and just what it means, including myself)
just one last thing and as an example and completely ficticous, lets say blockchain XYZ uses 10x what a nuclear power plant can produce, if that blockchain finds a way to offset by planting trees, investing in some geothermal energy etc, it still uses 10x what a nuclear power plant can produce, so i will state that offset isn't necessarily a good thing if the underlying problem is improperly designed/used etc. because it is still running extremely inefficient despite any offset it may also be participating in. another way is, lets say, i go pour 1000 gallons of used motor oil all around the coastlines of the usa, i have calculated that i do x, and x, and x and x, i am now carbon neutral, am i really?
whaddya think?
With all due respect, he mentioned blockchain which again is just a database. Cryptocurrency is a blockchain application.
I would highlight that your response delves into mining (proof of work) which some blockchains use to secure the data and process transactions, but not all of them do and most are transitioning away from.
Edited to add: You also should try to compare apples and apples as well. The server farms that process credit card and banking transactions are not insignificant, but they also are not as secure or decentralized, so comparison might not be fair. You could make the same arguments about the environmental impact of luxury cars versus their economy counterparts. Both accomplish the same thing but one does it better, or at least differently, so is it worth it the extra cost?
Finally, most mining farms have struck deals to use excess energy production that would otherwise go unused. Hard to say what percentage of the mining is done with "excess" energy but I would guess it's somewhere between 30 and 70% just because it's hard to be profitable (or reduces profits greatly) buying electricity in a competitive market at retail rates.
so we have seen indictments, sentences, fines etc so far including influencers, devs/creators, employees etc, finally.
let the pruning begin.
"Proof of stake". Google it.
The energy consumption is not an issue moving forward. Does that mean you are now a supporter?
Proof of stake.
No because proof of stake has not scaled yet to prove reliability. Also it is less secure, its easy to become part of the network- low upfront costs.
Still the issue for me is what is the real purpose of crypto other then to bypass the financial systems. I do not need to do that but maybe other people want that option.
Not proven? Then you haven't done your homework. PRojects like PAC went POS in 2019 and have over 20,000 master nodes, zero security issues. How much larger and more time do you need?
That's quite an American thing to say, people in other countries don't have it as easy as us. But why would you want to use the financial system if it can be avoided? Seems like the benefits are pretty clear. As as shop not having to give up 3% (or charge you 3% more) accept payments (and hope you don't get a charge back)? Not waiting days and paying ~$100 to send an international wire?
Or the ability so auto send micro-payments. Programmable money. There are a lot of applications you probably haven't considered.
My understanding is that nodes have been hacked.
Well, the premise of crypto being the begin all and end all for everything by not getting affected etc. just went out the window for the Russians.
https://cryptoronk.com/change-of-heart-kraken-closes-accounts-for-all-russian-users/
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Then you don't understand crypto. While it may be harder now to convert crypto to fiat, peer-to-peer transactions cannot be stopped.
Well then, kindly explain to me as to how p2p transactions can happen if accounts are closed and only be allowed to withdraw their funds.
My point was that if policy changes due to geo-politics can ensure the unfortunate citizens of a country invested in it suddenly find themselves banned from future transactions for no fault of theirs other than being in a country at war, then isn't it all yet another "scheme"?
Precious metals too may face similar "confiscation" actions since the past has proven it.
Not meaning to get political at all but my point is crypto for the average investor is yet another facade and that's it.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
While you can leave your crypto in the custody of a 3rd party which leaves you open to risks associated with any 3rd party, if you withdraw crypto to your own wallet, all you need is an internet connection to send your crypto somewhere, and there's nothing anyone can do about it, aside from terminating your internet connection.
It's comparable to buying gold and storing it with some vault service vs keeping it in your house. If it's in your house, no one can really stop you from doing what you want with it. If you let someone else hold your gold, well good luck with that.
While a government can associate a wallet with a verified account hosted by or associated with a company that does verification/KYC, once the funds are transferred away to private wallets, they can only make assumptions about who owns the wallets they are transferred to.
So you are basically agreeing with me that crypto is not the begin all or end all as claimed since it ain't protected/insulated and foolproof as many are foolishly led to believe, but pretty much open to getting swiped at the prevalent whim and fancy.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I don't know who claimed it was the "begin all or end all." Everything has benefits, vulnerabilities, strengths, and weaknesses.
Cryptocurrency exchange FTX has suspended client withdrawals after suffering a massive run by its depositors
https://www.investing.com/news/cryptocurrency-news/ftx-stops-processing-client-withdrawals-after-deposit-run--report-2936341
Explain to me as to how one would go about getting funds back - say there was an emergency or payments need to be made and one has to withdraw - in such a scenario.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
You're screwed, just like if you had a bunch of cash or gold stored in a safety deposit box and the FBI came and took it.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/fairness-justice/fbi-illegally-seized-86-million-from-safe-deposit-boxes
That's why you don't leave your crypto, cash, or gold in other people's control.
next stop, coffeezilla
That's the "gubmint folks" and the rabbit hole does go way deeper because of the place being part of a money laundering drug operation, but this FTX scenario is a totally different kettle of fish.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
An interesting article
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-southwest/coffeezilla-the-youtuber-exposing-crypto-scams
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
LOL.
That would be the personal wealth of Sam Bankman-Fried who is No Longer a Billionaire After $14.6B Wipeout
https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/11/09/sam-bankman-fried-no-longer-a-billionaire-after-146b-overnight-wipe-out/
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I just read about the massive Bitcoin price crash today.
It isn't though. It illustrates that it doesn't matter what asset you're talking about, if you don't have it in your possession you can wake up and it's gone. Whether the bank goes out of business, the FBI raids it, if you store your PMs with a third party, if you invest cash with Bernie Madoff...
double post
I was big into crypto in 2021 but lost interest around the time everyone else did. I did make $500 off Dogecoin last year.
Check out my coin blog at thecoinmaven.wordpress.com
Fascinating.
I’m learning so much. Thanks. Glad I’m a coin collector 😁
My wisest advisers told me way back “it’s a GD pyramid scheme “.
I shall watch and study but from what I’m seeing, they were correct. 🧐
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Those are the comments of people who usually haven't fully endeavored to research and understand crypto. If one can't see the value and utility of "programmable money" then give it a few years and you will understand. People probably said similar things about the internet in the early 90's.
There are good cryptos and bad cryptos, just like there are good stocks and bad stocks. You also have to realize the limitations of the perspectives of Americans. We are fortunate that our financial system is fairly robust and trustworthy that it's easy to not see the need or value that crypto provides. If you live in or do business in some of these lesser-developed countries, the utility and value is more obvious.
For a simpler application though, have you tried sending an international wire transfer? Nothing compares to the ease of sending a Bitcoin compared to a trip to the bank (only during M-F 9a-5p), paying about $100, and then waiting for it to be processed and received and processed again.
You can shun it for now, but eventually everybody will be using it. And just like the Internet, it will become easier and easier to use as the technology evolves. The Federal Reserve will be introducing a digital dollar very soon, and it will be a form of crypto. There is no escape.
I mined for 3 years, used the same cards the whole time and added new ones opportunistically. They were fine lol. Matter of a fact, the 3080 I used for about a year is my primary gaming GPU now. Nothing like playing stuff like Cyberpunk on max settings with dual monitors.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
From just one year ago in this thread:
I am 61 years old so i have been collecting coins for awhile. I also speculate in the crypto market. Honestly dont understand it but try to follow the trend on popular coins. I think crypto is here to stay butnot sure how i could justify spending 60k per coin on something i never see or hold.
Crypto is having some rough sledding lately. As I type this, Bitcoin is 17,196.
The thing about crypto is that "poof, it's gone" can become a reality practically overnight.
That doesn't mean I won't dip my toe into the pond sometime, but I'd rather know that my assets are real.
I knew it would happen.
Real. You mean like a share of Enron? That's of course where PM's and real estate shine. Every asset has its pros and cons. Not all assets are for all people.
Hard to say when the fed will get around to anything. Real ID has taken years longer than anyone expected. Other countries have launched or about to launch their digital currencies. I expect Fed coin will probably be in use in 5 years, maybe at an institutional level first then phased in to the rest of the population over 5 more years.
It's absurd to believe that the existing system of middlemen and third party services will be around much longer when a solution like crypto exists:
Contrast to crypto where the transactions are almost instant with no middlemen and (in most cases) only tiny network fees, and no third party risk. Do you really think this isn't the future and 20, 40, 60 years from now we'll still be paying with the 5 methods above?
Finally, I understand. Your 20-40-60 years mention was the answer. I’m 70 and I’ll be dead.
Now my heirs are another matter. I will let that be their world.
Thanks. Appreciate your explanation.
I will never in this life or the next be part of this scam. Selling me air and claiming it to be valuable is similar to ah, peeing on me and telling me it’s raining. 😁
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
When I saw the thread I vaguely remembered a crypto thread (10 year prediction).... how many have been wiped out?
Prices updated... 4pm 11/10/2022
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
For the record on this date NOV 30, 2021 at 4PM
Silver spot... was $22.89..... and now $21.69 ($26H/$18 L)
Gold Spot... was $1779.35... and now $1764 ($2000H/$1630L)
Bitcoin... was $57,500........ now $17,450 ($57500H/ $17450L)
SPY... was $450 and now $394 ($478H/$363L)
VTSMX... was $116 and now $91.50 ($118H/$89L)
Juan Soto HMT55 and Ronald Acuna #193 PSA 10 Chrome ... $500 now ????
PCGS 3000... then $63,147.00 now $71,214
When I saw the thread I vaguely remembered a crypto prediction.... how many have been wiped out?
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Not rejoicing mind you...
I play in alot of underground poker games.
The players, game hosts, card dealers, along with sports card money laundering and those "associates" with skills. Toss in a few drug dealers,
They brag how they flirt with the Feds and avoid them.
Somebody is always skimming.
There is always regulation.... in EVERYTHING.
My advice has always been the same.
Invest in Index funds
Pay off the mortgage
When you got enough to branch out?
Never give up control of your money
Have a skill set
Turn over turn over turn over that money
.....be it cars, real estate, PM's or beanie babies
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
I’ve got my peeps on the ground helping find homies lost Zip drive with his gazillion dollar crypto.
Let’s go to the field and get a report.” Any luck? No, keep digging 🙀😁
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
That's a generous estimate. I think it could be sooner but things always take longer than you expect.
The hold up isn't lack of interest and utility. The gov't very much wants it as it will provide an unprecedented amount of control and tracking. The problem is that a monumental shift like this involves a lot of infrastructure and probably even some legislation. Imagine that every government and bank computer system must be integrated with the new crypto payment system, and designed so that it can work in parallel with the old system for a while. Then you have testing and training. That doesn't happen quickly.
And lest you continue to think that there's lack of interest in crypto, if you follow the topic, all of the big name banks have been investing heavily in developing crypto capabilities. JP Morgan, Visa, Mastercard, Citibank, etc. The hold up really is uncertainty from regulators which will eventually get resolved.
Which of those problems does crypto have? It's nearly instant, no middle man, and tiny transaction costs.
I beg to differ. If you regularly imported hand made goods from Africa or exported crops or goods to Asia, you would quickly find that crypto is a superior way of sending and receiving payments.
I don't know why you say it's meant to circumvent taxation and control and why you think that circumventing taxation and control is a primary "purported benefit." It's an inherent possibility with any form of direct transaction similar to cash and barter. While some are excited or inspired by the possibilities I'm not sure anyone is promoting these properties of crypto as purported benefits. In many ways, Crypto is no different than a stack of federal reserve notes with the exception that a) being digital, you can transact with anyone across the globe any time of day in a matter of seconds and paying very little in fees (all other methods take hours or days and have significant fees) b) No one can censor the transaction (if done right) c) You can program transactions, such as what I describe below and loans as another example d) micro transactions become feasible (see how much it costs to send someone in another state $0.50 not using crypto).
Here's a real-use crypto application that will probably be developed some day:
A power company must finance the generation and transmission of electricity for 45 days or more. They don't get paid for the electricity you consume on day 1 of your billing period until probably 45 days later on average. This ties up millions of dollars in capital and we as consumers ultimately end up paying for this float/financing. Power companies also lose money due to people who don't pay. If you had a power meter that you kept loaded with crypto dollars that automatically sent payment every night via a smart contract, this cost goes away and saves your utility company millions of dollars that hopefully gets passed along to you or allows them to charge lower rates. Additionally, the power company would know your balance so they could automatically shut off power when you ran out of money thus eliminating bad accounts and collections.
Well now. That’s quite a pontification but you’re overlooking the obvious. The wild swings in value doesn’t lend itself to a stable value as a form of payment. 🙀
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Au contraire. Swings in value don't affect the use case for payments as much as it does for storing value. If you convert to fiat before sending and after receiving, risk of fluctuation is minimal.
You also overlook the fact that there are several cryptos that are pegged to fiat that do not fluctuate materially that make excellent candidates for using for transactions.
is there a crypto index like the Pcgs 3000?
It's not a fringe concept at all. China is already testing it's version as are many other countries. The US will be left behind if we don't get something going soon.
https://time.com/6084146/china-digital-rmb-currency/
I don't think you understand technology maturity models. We are probably at around the equivalent of the 2001 Internet tech crash. You might remember the same sentiments about the internet and internet stocks like Pets.com. It took the Internet about 25 years to mature its capabilities to where we are now. 2001 would have been a great time to buy Amazon stock. I would say roughly the internet took from 1990-2015 to mature (although the Internet existed well before 1990), as it would be about 7 years ago when my parents finally started become regular users of the Internet. It took that long to evolve programming languages and apps and bandwidth and computing power to get to where we have the modern Internet experience. Crypto needs the same ramp up.
You also don't understand how crypto works. While crypto is software and can be reprogrammed, no existing decentralized crypto project is going to insert a middleman. The only regulation and control will be at the end points, where users convert fiat to crypto and back, and probably with issuance of new crypto currencies. Crypto will scale up just fine, just like Internet bandwidth has over the years. Many crypto projects are unregulateable as any control is outside of US borders or too decentralized.
Again, crypto will scale just fine. The earliest projects have and had some capacity issues but it's software and there are fixes. There are higher capacity networks coming and in the works. It's a little naive to suggest that a software and computing problem has an upper limit that can't or won't be overcome.
How would sending $1M in Tether (crypto dollars) for a ~$10 transaction fee in minutes not be faster, safer, or cheaper than sending a dude with a suitcase of cash? It takes at least a day to fly to Africa, $1000 or more in airfare, meals, lodging, more for a salary, more for insurance, and that doesn't take into account all of the cash management expenses. The extra cost clearly didn't bother you but why spend what must have been $3000+ and wait days when you can spend $10?
Not exactly the same thing. The overhead of sending someone around to collect payments from the boxes negates any benefits. And prepaying involves the consumer becoming a creditor. The advantage of the crypto is that the programmed accounting and tiny transaction fees make it feasible to collect a small payment, such as $3-5 every day with almost no overhead. And in the case of solar, payments could flow the other direction too if production exceeded demand.
Again, the utility is easier to see in places without robust and reliable banking services. We have to stop thinking of crypto from the US mindset. You really should take some time to understand how some of these crypto networks operate and you'll see that there will be no fees or middlemen coming. That doesn't mean that some new and popular project won't have these fees and middlemen, but it will be hard for such a network to compete with the networks that already exist if there aren't any advantages to them.
14 years is not enough time for a technology to go from birth to widespread adoption. I respect your viewpoint and look forward to proving you wrong.