How safe are safes?
littlebear
Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭✭
Most safes offer fire protection of 1 or 2 hours, with the inside temperatures not exceeding 350 degrees, which is fine for paper. Some time ago, I wanted to test a slab, to see what would happen at 350 degrees. I put a sample slab (ICG) in the oven at 350 and it curled up and melted around the coin. I know this was a crude test, but it really got me thinking as to how safe a safe really was for plastics. I called the major TPG services at the time, and they stated the melting point of their plastics was proprietary information. I then asked a couple safe manufacturers what the effect of putting a fire resistant box (rated 1/2 hr) inside the safe would have on protection. They could not answer this question. The only recommendation was to utilize a media safe, which is rated at 125 degrees. Seeing the tragedy (and luck) which hit a member here in the CA fires a couple years ago, it got me wondering.....just how much protection does a 350 degree rated safe offer the plastic slabs? Your thoughts please......
Comments
Warping plastic still protects the coins. My slabbed coins would be the least of my worries if my home burned down.
I had a house fire once (rental I owned not that I lived in) and the Fire Marshall said that temps inside were as high as 5,000 degrees for a few minutes in the kitchen. Not much survives that.
bob
i'd say the if one truly wants a safe to umm, ah, safeguard against various scenarios, a bit of research is in order.
what i'm wondering, is why don't (or do some?) safes have that plaster stuff that jewelers in their little precious metal melting ovens? my grandfather was a jeweler and i saw this used as a youth and it is like what, 1500-2000 inside? certainly if it can be cool to the touch on the outside around 2k degrees, certainly the reverse logic is true to keep heat out, at least to the extremes of not damaging MOST contents?
i feel a youtube video search coming on for which safes are the safest!
since destroying items for their "business" is a deduction, you will see people buy/destroy/alter etc things that wouldn't normally be seen being done en-masse. fwiw
and last but not least, #searchtheforumarchives.
Be careful. Many fireproof safes rely on using materials that hold high amounts of moisture and the moisture helps with fireproofing. Great for protecting documents, but the material causes a constant high relative humidity inside the safe which can corrode coins.
Mr_Spud
IMO:
Everything will burn at the right temperature.
I do not know if safe manufacturer's ever say "Fire Proof" anymore.
The term "Fire Resistant" is all I see now a days.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
I don't bother with a safe. Once every 5 years i put my slabs into ziplock bags and encase them in a large block of cement.
It's heavier, harder to move, and I just store it outside in the elements so fire isn't really a risk because I don't live out west. It's rock solid.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Ceramic not plaster. Same principle as the tiles on the space shuttle. But no insulation is perfect. Eventually the outside of the ceramic and the inside of the ceramic teach the same temperature.
They do use this technology. That's why a safe in a 2000 degree fire never gets above 350 inside or, in the case of media safes, 125 C.
Like all things, the greater the protection desired, the greater the cost.
No safe protects against everything... You can always find a scenario where destruction is probable. Plan for the possible in your life.... If aliens attack with nuclear laser beams, all is lost anyway.
Cheers, RickO
I have 5 grandchildren so I have a 24 gun safe that is fire "resistant" to 1200 degrees for 1/2 hour. I store most of my coins on the shelves along with ammo. I have two plugin rechargeable dehydration devices and try to keep the moisture at 47-50% or lower. Don't know if the coins would survive for sure or not in a raging house fire, but it protects my grandchildren, so it gives me relief.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Jim. Your absolutely correct. A fire or a burglar is going to take their toll. Keeping enquiring young minds out and discouraging kink-knacking. 👍🏼
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My gun safe is fire resistant , it doesn’t hold moisture as that would rust the guns! It’s rated at 1200 degrees for 2.5 hours.
Any coins of real value are in the banks safe deposit area where there are cameras, alarms and fire suppression system (sprinklers). Big box at our bank is $74 per year. Cheap insurance!
And if there is a minor fire, the fire/water resistant safe may keep your stuff from being damaged by smoke and water during the excitement.
I loved my safe. It did it’s job and was rated to 2000 degrees. It was a 1942 jewelers safe. I’m still looking for another one.
And document safes dry out so old ones don't release any moisture. Money safes are only rated for tool attacks. Peace Roy
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Oh My gosh!!!!
I am just trying to take in those pictures. This wasn’t recent was it? Dang 🙀
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I appreciate the post by @crazyhounddog as I remember vividly his experience when this occurred and also recall how striking the photos were after the events. I'm certain that posting these photos was not a pleasant experience, but there is little else out there that can show you what a safe may or may not do in a given real-world condition.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
My home burned down in the “Campfire” in 2018. 89 people lost their lives that day from hell. We were the lucky ones that made it out safely.
PCGS reholdered all of my slabs and I am eternally grateful. I have a deep love for PCGS that will never yield.
Joe, I remember all too well the photos you sent me of your trip out of the burning town of Paradise. I am so thankful that you and your family escaped death from that catastrophe. God Bless you all and I hope your new homes stay safe from the awful California curse.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Thank you my brother
Thank you Tom. You are absolutely correct. It’s difficult for me to look at those pictures and posting them is even worse. They need to be seen especially on this forum on this subject. The safe defiantly did its job. Like I said I’m still looking for another one just like it.
I also want to again thank this forum for stepping up and helping my family along during that time. It will never be forgotten ❤️
I kinda understand as the East Troublesome Fire took the lives of close friends and burnt my doctors home to the ground. That was 1 year ago this week. We were able to evacuate and were,as it turns out, lucky to avoid the fire by a couple miles.
Thanks for sharing. I understand how it feels to be so close. 🤠🙀
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Do not know if you are monitoring them, but Empire normally has a good variety of pre-owned safes.
Disclaimer - I have no affiliation with Empire. Further, I have never purchased from them. Just encountered them when I was looking for a safe a couple of years back.
Thank you for that tip. I just skimmed through them real quick and they do have some safes there I might be interested in.
Thank you again my coin brother
One buys a safe to slow down/deter thieves.
One buys a sprinkler system to protect property from fire.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
That's not completely fair. Fire safes are purchased to mitigate damage or loss in fires. They aren't perfect in all situations, but I'm not sure how useful sprinkler systems would be in the case of a wildfire like crazyhounddog endured. I also don't think one would spend thousands to protect a coin collection worth only a couple thousand, but you might spend a few hundred on a safe.
I prefer a fire-proof safe, and then take measures to “burglar-proof” my entire home.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
If burglary they have all day work with a safe if your not there. Fire - see posts above.
yet the evidence shows that a home safe does very little to protect from a home fire.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
My parents had a fire. The ice cream was still frozen even though the refrigerator had melted. So, it helps in some cases.
Well, at least with a safe you can reuse it after you remove all charcoal.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
U> @crazyhounddog said:
Holy Moley - Great safe! Obviously not a mass produced "Gun" safe.
Just make sure you stand back opening after a fire -
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I guess it depends on the safe you purchase.
For me the question was, “will the safe satisfy the insurance company’s requirements.” In my case it is a B (burglary) rated safe with metal only construction that won’t retain extra moisture. I have peace of mind knowing that my collection is covered by insurance, and that it would be difficult for an ordinary burglar to steal it. House fires are probably a more rare occurrence than burglaries, so I am less concerned about that.
Unless you lived in Medford Ma on Memorial Day circa. 1980 at the Depositors Trust.
Suspects were 3 former active Police Officers. No box left unopened.
They turned the bank into a restaurant and it still has the safe with the hole in the ceiling and is being used as a wine room.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Invest in a home sprinkler system. Your insurance company will love you.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Been mentioned that’s good except for a forest fire. Thanks 😉
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Or the Bank of America in San Francisco in 2008...
"San Francisco resident Carla Ruff's safe-deposit box was drilled, seized, and turned over to the state of California, marked "owner unknown."
Unknown? Carla's name was right on documents in the box at the Noe Valley Bank of America location. So was her address -- a house about six blocks from the bank. Carla had a checking account at the bank, too -- still does -- and receives regular statements. Plus, she has receipts showing she's the kind of person who paid her box rental fee. And yet, she says nobody ever notified her.
To make matters worse, Ruff discovered the loss when she went to her box to retrieve important paperwork she needed because her husband was dying. Those papers had been shredded.
And that's not all. Her great-grandmother's precious natural pearls and other jewelry had been auctioned off. They were sold for just $1,800, even though they were appraised for $82,500."
https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4832471&page=1
Maybe for new construction. To outfit an existing home with a sprinkler system is an exorbitant amount of money.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
As a state fire marshal I can tell you it is easier than you assume for residential. Might not be the most attractive, but it can be done and not bankrupt you.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
The only safe that can protect against fire is a floor safe, in a slab.
I would never keep everything in a gun safe, an armed robber will get you to open it with a gun to your head.
I only keep firearms and recent stuff in the gun safe, the rest goes into deep storage.
I would never trust a bank safety deposit box! They can find many reasons to seize your assets.
Just one comment….
Don’t keep any quantity of ammunition in a safe. The other name for that setup is a rather large and exceedingly dangerous bomb. Smokeless powder is relatively safe, even in a fire, when not in a constrained space. Even loaded ammunition usually just pops apart and burns - intensely, but not explosively. Inside of a safe, you risk catastrophic explosive detonation. If firefighters find out you have ammo or powder in a safe, they'll back everyone off a few hundred yards and watch it burn.
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Yes, they even made a movie about it [they were mostly MDC Police I think] staring Ed Asner
boston
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The Cops are Robbers (also known as Good Cops, Bad Cops) was a 1990 made-for-television movie depicting the true story the six bank robbers and their lucrative burglary of the Depositors' Trust Bank in Medford, Massachusetts over Memorial Day weekend in 1980, yielding the bandits $1.5 million in cash and over $18 million in gold and jewelry. The twist to the story is that three of the bank robbers were policemen in the Medford Police Department. Ray Sharkey plays Capt. Gerald W. "Gerry" Clemente, the head of the gang, and Ed Asner
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@WAYNEAS
https://youtu.be/lsSzZLzYetA
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