Does this affect grading? (small dip)

KenJP

I have a very beautiful 1701 William III 5 Guineas (Fine Work).

Reverse side has minor dip.

Does this affect grading?

I posted a coin's video for the reference.

Any comment or input including the condition of this coin is appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxnGcAuJKE

KenJP

clarification: on the reverse side, there is a little dip at the black(burning mark) area.

KenJP

jmlanzaf

If it is noticeable, it affects grading. If it is bad enough, it will even result in a details grade.

KenJP

jmlanzaf, thank you for your valuable comment. That's the case, I should probably keep it in raw instead of sending for grading.

coinkat

The grade will be impacted but the answer to your question is not easy. The coin you posted is very desirable and looks as if it is in the AU Spectrum. Early British gold can get a pass on a dip if the surfaces were not that negatively impacted. If the obverse has a polished look and highlights hairlines... all bets are off and it will get the details grade. On the other hand, there is still something to be said for having a coin such this in an AU details grade for purposes of establishing authenticity. A coin such as this with original surfaces in this state of preservation is rare. I am not going to handicap the chances of a straight or details grade without an in hand review. My advise is consider what is important to you... If a details grade is outweighed by establishing authenticity it might be worth doing but only if a details grade would not bother you.

KenJP

My bad.... I posted this to wrong forum.

ricko

@KenJP.... Welcome aboard.... No problem, foreign coins often are posted here for various reasons (including error). Nice gold coin... In such condition (based on pictures), it may straight grade... hard to say, but probably worth a try. Cheers, RickO

coinkat

I should have started with welcome aboard...

Just afew other things to look for and think about.

You should take the coin out of the holder to look at the rim to be certain it is not an ex-jewelry piece- look for evidence of a removed bezel at 12 o'clock... an ex-jewelry piece really is the kiss of death with a coin such as this.

Also, not sure what side of the pond you reside at so I mention this because there really are differences between grading in the UK and in the States. In the UK... at least from my experience... there is a greater focus on the strike. Coins that are not fully struck may fall short of a practically as struck designation. Further there is the British AEF, EF and GEF. And with a coin such as yours, the focus will be on the portrait hair and the lions and harp on the reverse. The weakness in the strike is often punished even though these theoretical fully struck coins rarely or never surface.

In the states, weakness in the strike is anticipated and the focus is on the quality of the surfaces. And with British from these era, a dip is not the kiss of death unless the surfaces have been altered giving the coin a polished look or highlighting hairlines from an earlier or more abrasive cleaning effort. And this is when magnification helps- take a very close look at the fields to determine are hairlines in contrast to any of the other possibilities that include die flow lines; die polish or adjustment marks/lines.

Best wishes with your decision- if you choose to submit, please consider posting the results here. We don't see this type of coin here often and it is worth discussing

291fifth

Leave the coin as-is. There is no certainty that the black mark will be removed by coin dip since it does not appear to be caused by natural toning. The coin would probably be more desirable if it were slabbed even if it comes back as "genuine" just because of authentication.
.
Will they straight grade the coin? I don't know.

Keshequa

Details grade at least validates authenticity and ‘details’ grade. Nothing to lose. There are always pliers if you change your mind.

KenJP

Thank you everyone for valuable input and comments. I decided to submit the coin. I will definitely share the result.

ChrisH821

I know nothing about these but that is an amazing coin!

Crypto

@KenJP said:
jmlanzaf, thank you for your valuable comment. That's the case, I should probably keep it in raw instead of sending for grading.

Coins like that are always worth grading even if just for the authenticity confidence imparted to the bidders/buyers. It looks like it could grade to these eyes. I can’t tell if it is burnished (lightly rubbed) or just naturally glossy. AU58 or cleaned… nice either way

KenJP

Update:

I have submitted 3 coins including 1701 5G.
I should be able to get result sometime next week.
Wish me luck!!

WAYNEAS

Welcome aboard and good luck with the grading.
Wayne

coinkat

Best of luck... just curious... what does the Queen Anne 1706 5 G look like?

KenJP

Thank you!!

I am posting pictures of 1706 Anne 5G.

koynekwest

Welcome!

pmh1nic

Anything 17xx that looks that good blows me away. Cheers!

coinkat

I would need to see the Queen Anne in hand. The details look to easily make the AU spectrum... it is the surfaces/fields I am having an issue with and I suspect that is in part due to the image. I am encouraged by the shadowing tone on the reverse lettering starting at 6 o'clock and ending at 9 at the lower portion of the crown. If this was enhanced, I doubt that would have remained. I think this is a coin any collector of British milled coinage would love to own. I think you made the right decision to submit both 5 G coins. I hope this goes well

KenJP

I just got the result. I am disappointed all 3 coins got Details grade but at least I know those 3 coins are authentic.
About 1706 Anne 5G, I am not sure how it got "Damage" grade....
I am thinking about trying sending NGC for 2nd opinion.... but I would like to hear everyone's opinion about sending 1706 5G to NGC.

KenJP

Has anyone submitted the same coin to a different grading company and got the better grade?

Ex. submit to PCGS and get AU Details ... submit the same coin to NGC and get AU55, etc....

Thanks in advance.

pmh1nic

Sorry to hear about the details grades. I'm not familiar with European coins but while they aren't in perfect condition they show great detail and the 1706 has a numistma rarity index of 97 (0 being common, 100 being rare) so you are not going to run a cross these every day.

Enjoy

coinkat

I would not make any quick decisions on re-submitting. Take a close look at them after they are returned. I would look for signs of mounting on the rim. Based on the images, this does not seem likely... but then again, we cannot see the entire rim. The 1701 has an obvious issue on the reverse but that could possibly be attributable in part to impurities and or copper issues in the flan. Silver coins from the reign of both of these monarchs suffer from flecking and/or haymarking. These are distracting marks that are common but yet often present. TPG is unpredictable as to how it will treat these issues. I have personally experienced a Queen Anne crown that did not grade based on a finding of environmental damage which I did not agree with mainly because this is a known production problem/issue... its the way many of these coins were made. The crown I submitted came back as environmental damage which I think is a different code... perhaps 92 and not 98. You can't take a 21st century yardstick and apply it to coinage that is 300-350 yrs old. I am unable to opine whether flecking/haymarking is an issue on gold from this era. I suspect others on the World coin forum might have a more complete reply.

I suppose the bright spot is the coins are authentic and they reached an appropriate grade range (even though it is details...). However, it is not clear exactly what the damage is...if the surfaces were impaired from a cleaning, one would expect that the easier basis for the details grade would be to cite cleaning instead of damage.