That is a crazy price difference. But even the lower price coin is more than I’d ever pay for a coin. I can’t imagine paying more for a coin than what a new car would cost. But then again, I won the current car I’m driving and now I can’t imagine paying for a new car so I’m going to drive the one I have into the ground.
I guess it’s all relative. A non-coin collector can’t imagine paying $1000 for a cent, or even $100 for a cent.
I never bought into the Full Whatever non-sense. To me it isn't worth the price premium to buy a Full Whatever when it's entirely possible that the coin really isn't Full Strike.
In the example above the top piece (non-FH) is the prettier coin (based on the photo anyway) IMO.
@scubafuel said:
I think this is what comes of having a “mature” market. There’s a lot of money out there but most US coin series are quite common even at the top end. So if you want the best, semi arbitrary sub- designations are needed.
Boy, ain't that the truth? By "mature" do you mean "long in the tooth?"
This is carrying the hobby to a ridiculous level. Sure turns me off. I long for the ...old days....when a coin only had to be "nice." to be desirable.
Redefining "nice" down to this extreme is just silly.
@TurtleCat said:
It all depends upon your wallet. If my wallet could easily afford both I would always get the bottom one as it is technically a better coin. If I couldn’t afford both easily then it’s moot and I would either go with the top or neither.
I haven’t researched the series or the date but I suppose the price differential has always been there and is exaggerated by registry competition.
Last scenario unrealistic since if you could afford 250K, I’m confident you could afford an additional 20K.
Obviously you've never stretched for a coin. If you find a really special coin and save up (or borrow forward) six, or nine, or twelve months of your coin budget for it, then you just might not be able to easily come up with another 10%. This holds whether your stretch coin is $250,000, $25,000, $2500, or even $250. Easy for most of us to say that if you can afford to spend $250 on a coin you can afford an extra $20, but it's not at all unlikely that there is someone out there who has an XF 40 1932 D Washington as the pinnacle of his collection, and he's saved a whole year to afford it, and he's been building his Washington set by purchasing the one coin he can afford per month out of the 90% junk jar at his LCS. I bet most collectors are the same, if not in the specifics. I'll bet that most collectors have one or two or a very few coins that are on a pedestal above all the others, and they really couldn't have afforded them, much less pay 10% more.
Am I wrong? Are there a lot of collectors out there who just pulled statehood quarters from circulation and never thought to spend $5 on a Wisconsin variety to top it off?
@FrankH said:
This is carrying the hobby to a ridiculous level. Sure turns me off. I long for the ...old days....when a coin only had to be "nice." to be desirable.
Redefining "nice" down to this extreme is just silly.
Letting what other people choose to collect bother you seems counterproductive to me, unless you like being bothered.
@FrankH said:
This is carrying the hobby to a ridiculous level. Sure turns me off. I long for the ...old days....when a coin only had to be "nice." to be desirable.
Redefining "nice" down to this extreme is just silly.
Letting what other people choose to collect bother you seems counterproductive to me, unless you like being bothered.
I think everyone should collect bottle caps. If they don't it bothers me.
To no end.
Alas.
@TurtleCat said:
It all depends upon your wallet. If my wallet could easily afford both I would always get the bottom one as it is technically a better coin. If I couldn’t afford both easily then it’s moot and I would either go with the top or neither.
I haven’t researched the series or the date but I suppose the price differential has always been there and is exaggerated by registry competition.
Last scenario unrealistic since if you could afford 250K, I’m confident you could afford an additional 20K.
Obviously you've never stretched for a coin. If you find a really special coin and save up (or borrow forward) six, or nine, or twelve months of your coin budget for it, then you just might not be able to easily come up with another 10%. This holds whether your stretch coin is $250,000, $25,000, $2500, or even $250. Easy for most of us to say that if you can afford to spend $250 on a coin you can afford an extra $20, but it's not at all unlikely that there is someone out there who has an XF 40 1932 D Washington as the pinnacle of his collection, and he's saved a whole year to afford it, and he's been building his Washington set by purchasing the one coin he can afford per month out of the 90% junk jar at his LCS. I bet most collectors are the same, if not in the specifics. I'll bet that most collectors have one or two or a very few coins that are on a pedestal above all the others, and they really couldn't have afforded them, much less pay 10% more.
Am I wrong? Are there a lot of collectors out there who just pulled statehood quarters from circulation and never thought to spend $5 on a Wisconsin variety to top it off?
Coin collecting involves discretionary spending. If you are wealthy enough to sink .25M into a coin, 20K isn’t significant. I think comparing the wealthy’s budget to us peons is spurious.
And I have stretched for a coin and it hurts. So I’ll say you’re wrong!
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I like the die polish lines... it adds to what I see as making dies last, giving coins a character that is deserving... especially for those coins that are a product of the arts & crafts and Art Nuoveau era. The images also amplify my view that there is alot to miss by limiting magnification to 3x-5x. That simply does not create the desired view from my perspective.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I would have to sell the house for the bottom coin. But could see stretching for the top one. It’s gorgeous. So yea, I myself could never understand the discrepancy. In fact even if I had 25 million in the bank I still would not buy it.
Was the FH strike at the detriment of the other areas of the obverse? Reason for asking, is although the Head and Shield area have a better strike, the rest of the coin is not as fully struck as the other coin. Look at the hand, olive branch, motto, leg area, stars and wall. Not even close to strike fullness. This is not my series, and I do not have an appreciation of the FH designation, but with the better reverse, I may be crazy,but I actually prefer the other coin. When a Morgan or 21Peace have a hammered strike, it usually impacts the entire coin, not just a limited area.
Looks like it could be struck through grease there, missing some wing detail. It's plausible that this played a role in the head striking up better, since the metal that couldn't flow into the wing eventually had to flow somewhere and ended up in the head. If so, it's ironic that so much wing detail was lost to gain such a tiny amount of head detail.
The price difference is a result of the fact that many have been trained to look only for a full strike in one tiny part of a coin for some series, exacerbated by registries that validate that approach. For other series, overall strike is what plays a part in the grade. Of course, for 1921 Peace dollars, that isn't even the case.
Looks like it could be struck through grease there, missing some wing detail. It's plausible that this played a role in the head striking up better, since the metal that couldn't flow into the wing eventually had to flow somewhere and ended up in the head. If so, it's ironic that so much wing detail was lost to gain such a tiny amount of head detail.
The price difference is a result of the fact that many have been trained to look only for a full strike in one tiny part of a coin for some series, exacerbated by registries that validate that approach. For other series, overall strike is what plays a part in the grade. Of course, for 1921 Peace dollars, that isn't even the case.
Interesting observation and very plausible. The obstruction during the reverse die striking caused the top of the observe to get more silver flow, but also negatively impacted the bottom 75% of the observe strike.
@TurtleCat said:
It all depends upon your wallet. If my wallet could easily afford both I would always get the bottom one as it is technically a better coin. If I couldn’t afford both easily then it’s moot and I would either go with the top or neither.
I haven’t researched the series or the date but I suppose the price differential has always been there and is exaggerated by registry competition.
Last scenario unrealistic since if you could afford 250K, I’m confident you could afford an additional 20K.
Obviously you've never stretched for a coin. If you find a really special coin and save up (or borrow forward) six, or nine, or twelve months of your coin budget for it, then you just might not be able to easily come up with another 10%. This holds whether your stretch coin is $250,000, $25,000, $2500, or even $250. Easy for most of us to say that if you can afford to spend $250 on a coin you can afford an extra $20, but it's not at all unlikely that there is someone out there who has an XF 40 1932 D Washington as the pinnacle of his collection, and he's saved a whole year to afford it, and he's been building his Washington set by purchasing the one coin he can afford per month out of the 90% junk jar at his LCS. I bet most collectors are the same, if not in the specifics. I'll bet that most collectors have one or two or a very few coins that are on a pedestal above all the others, and they really couldn't have afforded them, much less pay 10% more.
Am I wrong? Are there a lot of collectors out there who just pulled statehood quarters from circulation and never thought to spend $5 on a Wisconsin variety to top it off?
Coin collecting involves discretionary spending. If you are wealthy enough to sink .25M into a coin, 20K isn’t significant. I think comparing the wealthy’s budget to us peons is spurious.
And I have stretched for a coin and it hurts. So I’ll say you’re wrong!
“Nice educational post about smart money vs market/clout chasing.”
Not necessarily. I bought the 1919-S finest known PCGS 67FH for a touch over $100,000 for JHF some years back. It would have even cost me even a bit less but the coin had “disappeared” from its owner at the PCGS pick up table at a coin show (when it was supposed to then be delivered to me) and video footage showed which dealers were in the room at the time of the disappearance. As I recall, the coin was many months later submitted to NGC raw and the moment they saw the coin, they recognized it as the “missing” coin. It was submitted by someone in the room at the very time of the disappearance! Needless to say, that NGC submitter (I am told) quickly agreed to pay the reward money that NGC had earned (which I believe was donated) as well as some other expenses (with some story that he bought it at the coin show from someone but had no reasonable proof of purchase). In any event, the price went up to me just a touch to help cover the small amount of open expense the owner of the coin had dealing with this fiasco. And JHF was delighted to help out in that small way.
Now, a short time later (and after JHF/ myself successfully sold his collection through Stacks for world record money at the time) the coin is worth nearly triple what I bought it at! Hence, I suggest this has little to do with “smart money” vs. “market/clout chasing” and, in fact, some of THE smartest collectors in the coin Universe bought JHF’s prize SLQ coins (similar to this beauty) including Simpson on many of them!
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@JimW said:
Maybe it is just the pics, but the top coin seems to have a stronger reverse strike. Will agree the head looks struck better on the bottom coin.
The strike on the top coin valued at $20,000 is unquestionably superior to the strike on the coin that has the FH designation. But the top coin does not have the definition on the head that the $250,000 coin seems to have. But the head designation is very subjective. Here is a MS65 coin where the head designation actually demonstrates the floral attachment to Ms. Liberty's cap.
I think that the designation of FH may not be accurate for the $250,000 coin. Without the clear floral on her cap it should not be considered FH. But this seems to make FH a very tall order. Maybe the existing standard should be FF (Full Face) and both the coins have FF. The strike otherwise on the $20,000 coin seems to be superior, especially on the Reverse. But the toning may accentuate the strike?
But even PCGS values the coin at $250,000 based upon their own grading standard for a FH- coin vs. $20,000 for a FF coin.
I wonder what the $250,000 coin might sell for in the next auction?
Valuation gets a little fuzzy for me somewhere between the jump and top pop. It’s even harder when toning gets involved. Usually there’s a grade or maybe two above the jump where things make some rational sense. Not always.
I’ve had opportunity to play up there a few times (in lesser series), but you really need to have a great understanding of the extant coins at that level to make smart calls. Even then, it’s a high risk/reward proposition and it’s pretty easy to fly too close to the sun.
This kind of stuff exceeds my comfort level and I’m pretty confident having gob tons of money wouldn’t make me see it differently. Entertaining and fun to observe though.
The strike on the top coin valued at $20,000 is unquestionably superior to the strike on the coin that has the FH designation. But the top coin does not have the definition on the head that the $250,000 coin seems to have.
things like this reinforce my belief that a lot of collectors are stupid. in essence, paying these kinds of prices means that 1% of the coin is valued at $230k more than 99% of the other coin.
@keets said: The strike on the top coin valued at $20,000 is unquestionably superior to the strike on the coin that has the FH designation. But the top coin does not have the definition on the head that the $250,000 coin seems to have.
things like this reinforce my belief that a lot of collectors are stupid. in essence, paying these kinds of prices means that 1% of the coin is valued at $230k more than 99% of the other coin.
Ahhhh, yet another instance of calling your fellow hobbyists stupid. You and Bill Jones should form a club. Perhaps start your own forum for these insults. That way, you both could leave here - do it for all of us and in recognition of how better this forum would be without the pair of you.
@keets said: The strike on the top coin valued at $20,000 is unquestionably superior to the strike on the coin that has the FH designation. But the top coin does not have the definition on the head that the $250,000 coin seems to have.
things like this reinforce my belief that a lot of collectors are stupid. in essence, paying these kinds of prices means that 1% of the coin is valued at $230k more than 99% of the other coin.
Ahhhh, yet another instance of calling your fellow hobbyists stupid. You and Bill Jones should form a club. Perhaps start your own forum for these insults. That way, you both could leave here - do it for all of us and in recognition of how better this forum would be without the pair of you.
No offense , but a lot of collectors are stupid. Some of the collections brought into a coin shop, were late night television purchases. Way more than this refined crowd will ever believe or comprehend.
thank you, JBN. while I named nobody specifically I speak the truth as does the esteemed Mr. Jones. he used to irk me about 20 years ago until I stumbled upon the wisdom of his words.
an edit for Joe --- most of the membership here only interacts with coin dealers and never spend any time on the other side of the counter(as I did), let alone own a Coin Shop as you do. it changes perceptions.
@wondercoin said:
“Nice educational post about smart money vs market/clout chasing.”
Not necessarily. I bought the 1919-S finest known PCGS 67FH for a touch over $100,000 for JHF some years back. It would have even cost me even a bit less but the coin had “disappeared” from its owner at the PCGS pick up table at a coin show (when it was supposed to then be delivered to me) and video footage showed which dealers were in the room at the time of the disappearance. As I recall, the coin was many months later submitted to NGC raw and the moment they saw the coin, they recognized it as the “missing” coin. It was submitted by someone in the room at the very time of the disappearance! Needless to say, that NGC submitter (I am told) quickly agreed to pay the reward money that NGC had earned (which I believe was donated) as well as some other expenses (with some story that he bought it at the coin show from someone but had no reasonable proof of purchase). In any event, the price went up to me just a touch to help cover the small amount of open expense the owner of the coin had dealing with this fiasco. And JHF was delighted to help out in that small way.
Now, a short time later (and after JHF/ myself successfully sold his collection through Stacks for world record money at the time) the coin is worth nearly triple what I bought it at! Hence, I suggest this has little to do with “smart money” vs. “market/clout chasing” and, in fact, some of THE smartest collectors in the coin Universe bought JHF’s prize SLQ coins (similar to this beauty) including Simpson on many of them!
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
Good provenance!
In addition to the FH being owned by JHF / Just Having Fun, the non-FH is currently owned by our own @DLHansen!
No offense , but a lot of collectors are stupid. Some of the collections brought into a coin shop, were late night television purchases. Way more than this refined crowd will ever believe or comprehend.
Getting off topic here, but I think few people here realize that it can be not only fair but generous for a dealer to offer less than face for a collection/accumulation.
No offense , but a lot of collectors are stupid. Some of the collections brought into a coin shop, were late night television purchases. Way more than this refined crowd will ever believe or comprehend.
Getting off topic here, but I think few people here realize that it can be not only fair but generous for a dealer to offer less than face for a collection/accumulation.
Less than legal tender face value doesn’t seem generous. What situations are you thinking of?
Going back to this thread, what do you think about dealers offering less than face for the $20k and $250k quarters here?
Comments
That is a crazy price difference. But even the lower price coin is more than I’d ever pay for a coin. I can’t imagine paying more for a coin than what a new car would cost. But then again, I won the current car I’m driving and now I can’t imagine paying for a new car so I’m going to drive the one I have into the ground.
I guess it’s all relative. A non-coin collector can’t imagine paying $1000 for a cent, or even $100 for a cent.
Mr_Spud
I never bought into the Full Whatever non-sense. To me it isn't worth the price premium to buy a Full Whatever when it's entirely possible that the coin really isn't Full Strike.
In the example above the top piece (non-FH) is the prettier coin (based on the photo anyway) IMO.
jom
Nice educational post about smart money vs market/clout chasing.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Very odd area on the FH coin
Boy, ain't that the truth? By "mature" do you mean "long in the tooth?"
This is carrying the hobby to a ridiculous level. Sure turns me off. I long for the ...old days....when a coin only had to be "nice." to be desirable.
Redefining "nice" down to this extreme is just silly.
Oh, except for the ....registry.
Obviously you've never stretched for a coin. If you find a really special coin and save up (or borrow forward) six, or nine, or twelve months of your coin budget for it, then you just might not be able to easily come up with another 10%. This holds whether your stretch coin is $250,000, $25,000, $2500, or even $250. Easy for most of us to say that if you can afford to spend $250 on a coin you can afford an extra $20, but it's not at all unlikely that there is someone out there who has an XF 40 1932 D Washington as the pinnacle of his collection, and he's saved a whole year to afford it, and he's been building his Washington set by purchasing the one coin he can afford per month out of the 90% junk jar at his LCS. I bet most collectors are the same, if not in the specifics. I'll bet that most collectors have one or two or a very few coins that are on a pedestal above all the others, and they really couldn't have afforded them, much less pay 10% more.
Am I wrong? Are there a lot of collectors out there who just pulled statehood quarters from circulation and never thought to spend $5 on a Wisconsin variety to top it off?
Then that should carry the coveted "OA" (Odd Area) designation.
I'm not sure though if it could make it into "FOA" (FULL Odd Area) status.
Letting what other people choose to collect bother you seems counterproductive to me, unless you like being bothered.
I think everyone should collect bottle caps. If they don't it bothers me.
To no end.
Alas.
Coin collecting involves discretionary spending. If you are wealthy enough to sink .25M into a coin, 20K isn’t significant. I think comparing the wealthy’s budget to us peons is spurious.
And I have stretched for a coin and it hurts. So I’ll say you’re wrong!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I like the die polish lines... it adds to what I see as making dies last, giving coins a character that is deserving... especially for those coins that are a product of the arts & crafts and Art Nuoveau era. The images also amplify my view that there is alot to miss by limiting magnification to 3x-5x. That simply does not create the desired view from my perspective.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I would have to sell the house for the bottom coin. But could see stretching for the top one. It’s gorgeous. So yea, I myself could never understand the discrepancy. In fact even if I had 25 million in the bank I still would not buy it.
Was the FH strike at the detriment of the other areas of the obverse? Reason for asking, is although the Head and Shield area have a better strike, the rest of the coin is not as fully struck as the other coin. Look at the hand, olive branch, motto, leg area, stars and wall. Not even close to strike fullness. This is not my series, and I do not have an appreciation of the FH designation, but with the better reverse, I may be crazy,but I actually prefer the other coin. When a Morgan or 21Peace have a hammered strike, it usually impacts the entire coin, not just a limited area.
Looks like it could be struck through grease there, missing some wing detail. It's plausible that this played a role in the head striking up better, since the metal that couldn't flow into the wing eventually had to flow somewhere and ended up in the head. If so, it's ironic that so much wing detail was lost to gain such a tiny amount of head detail.
The price difference is a result of the fact that many have been trained to look only for a full strike in one tiny part of a coin for some series, exacerbated by registries that validate that approach. For other series, overall strike is what plays a part in the grade. Of course, for 1921 Peace dollars, that isn't even the case.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Interesting observation and very plausible. The obstruction during the reverse die striking caused the top of the observe to get more silver flow, but also negatively impacted the bottom 75% of the observe strike.
Me, too.
To TDN; me either.
Sometimes it hurts even if I don't stretch...
the FH designation notwithstanding, the top coin seems superior in all regards.
When wealthy bidders get in a bid war anything can happen.
I like the top coin better. Can't afford either one.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
The registry is a heck of a drug.
Ditto. Came to say the same thing.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
“Nice educational post about smart money vs market/clout chasing.”
Not necessarily. I bought the 1919-S finest known PCGS 67FH for a touch over $100,000 for JHF some years back. It would have even cost me even a bit less but the coin had “disappeared” from its owner at the PCGS pick up table at a coin show (when it was supposed to then be delivered to me) and video footage showed which dealers were in the room at the time of the disappearance. As I recall, the coin was many months later submitted to NGC raw and the moment they saw the coin, they recognized it as the “missing” coin. It was submitted by someone in the room at the very time of the disappearance! Needless to say, that NGC submitter (I am told) quickly agreed to pay the reward money that NGC had earned (which I believe was donated) as well as some other expenses (with some story that he bought it at the coin show from someone but had no reasonable proof of purchase). In any event, the price went up to me just a touch to help cover the small amount of open expense the owner of the coin had dealing with this fiasco. And JHF was delighted to help out in that small way.
Now, a short time later (and after JHF/ myself successfully sold his collection through Stacks for world record money at the time) the coin is worth nearly triple what I bought it at! Hence, I suggest this has little to do with “smart money” vs. “market/clout chasing” and, in fact, some of THE smartest collectors in the coin Universe bought JHF’s prize SLQ coins (similar to this beauty) including Simpson on many of them!
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
totally agree. look at those feathers!
Wondercoin,
Much thanks for that post.
The strike on the top coin valued at $20,000 is unquestionably superior to the strike on the coin that has the FH designation. But the top coin does not have the definition on the head that the $250,000 coin seems to have. But the head designation is very subjective. Here is a MS65 coin where the head designation actually demonstrates the floral attachment to Ms. Liberty's cap.
I think that the designation of FH may not be accurate for the $250,000 coin. Without the clear floral on her cap it should not be considered FH. But this seems to make FH a very tall order. Maybe the existing standard should be FF (Full Face) and both the coins have FF. The strike otherwise on the $20,000 coin seems to be superior, especially on the Reverse. But the toning may accentuate the strike?
But even PCGS values the coin at $250,000 based upon their own grading standard for a FH- coin vs. $20,000 for a FF coin.
I wonder what the $250,000 coin might sell for in the next auction?
OINK
Valuation gets a little fuzzy for me somewhere between the jump and top pop. It’s even harder when toning gets involved. Usually there’s a grade or maybe two above the jump where things make some rational sense. Not always.
I’ve had opportunity to play up there a few times (in lesser series), but you really need to have a great understanding of the extant coins at that level to make smart calls. Even then, it’s a high risk/reward proposition and it’s pretty easy to fly too close to the sun.
This kind of stuff exceeds my comfort level and I’m pretty confident having gob tons of money wouldn’t make me see it differently. Entertaining and fun to observe though.
The strike on the top coin valued at $20,000 is unquestionably superior to the strike on the coin that has the FH designation. But the top coin does not have the definition on the head that the $250,000 coin seems to have.
things like this reinforce my belief that a lot of collectors are stupid. in essence, paying these kinds of prices means that 1% of the coin is valued at $230k more than 99% of the other coin.
Ahhhh, yet another instance of calling your fellow hobbyists stupid. You and Bill Jones should form a club. Perhaps start your own forum for these insults. That way, you both could leave here - do it for all of us and in recognition of how better this forum would be without the pair of you.
Are we seeing die polish lines in the fields in that area?
No offense , but a lot of collectors are stupid. Some of the collections brought into a coin shop, were late night television purchases. Way more than this refined crowd will ever believe or comprehend.
thank you, JBN. while I named nobody specifically I speak the truth as does the esteemed Mr. Jones. he used to irk me about 20 years ago until I stumbled upon the wisdom of his words.
an edit for Joe --- most of the membership here only interacts with coin dealers and never spend any time on the other side of the counter(as I did), let alone own a Coin Shop as you do. it changes perceptions.
This is why I don't collect FH only. You can find some Non-FH pieces that are close and at a fraction of the price.
Although the head on the $250K coin is fuller, it still doesn't look like a TRUE FH. IMHO. Color is better on the less expensive piece, as well.
BIG PASS for me.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Good provenance!
In addition to the FH being owned by JHF / Just Having Fun, the non-FH is currently owned by our own @DLHansen!
Getting off topic here, but I think few people here realize that it can be not only fair but generous for a dealer to offer less than face for a collection/accumulation.
Less than legal tender face value doesn’t seem generous. What situations are you thinking of?
Going back to this thread, what do you think about dealers offering less than face for the $20k and $250k quarters here?
In Plastic We Trust.