CAC: My thoughts since absolutely nobody asked
Weiss
Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭✭✭
If you just met someone and they asked you to tell them about yourself, what would you say?
I'm a dad, a husband, a landlord. A philanthropist. A 15 gallon blood donor.
But before any of this, I was a collector. More specifically, a coin collector.
In fact, it's the _first _quality or defining characteristic I gave myself. It's a mantle took up when I was a small child, and one that has outlasted every other phase, interest, or passion I've identified with in my 50-something years.
It could be argued that the most significant development in our hobby in the last century is third party grading from trusted sources like our host or ats. It's important to understand that this type of grading has now existed for 35 years--a lifetime, or at least a generation. Slabs have become emblematic of our hobby. A coin by itself is a coin. To the uninitiated, it's parking meter fare. Or something you need to round up for your Big Mac. But to many if not most of us, a slab identifies that object as something special. It has value beyond its face value. It separates loose change from an object worthy of esteem.
As a collector, it seems self-evident that certain characteristics of the objects which we collect are desirable. A particular year. A special mint mark or privy mark. Its state of preservation. This is literally why we do what we do. We appreciate these attributes because they represent deeper meaning: Scarcity. Supply and demand. History, etc. Given the choice, most of us would rather have a mint state 1909-S VDB Lincoln cent than a 2021 circulated cent. The 1909 is scarce. It has history. There is greater demand than supply. Seasoned collectors seek out the most original example when they hunt. Sure it's pristine, but is it original--not just uncleaned, but not repainted or repaired? Yes, but does it come with its original instructions? Yes, but is it in its original box? Yes, but is that box sealed? Each subsequent layer of originality makes acquisition more challenging and often more valuable (or at least more expensive). People who aren't collectors might scoff at that. But not us. We're collectors.
To that end, I feel we are very fortunate that the slabs from the main TPGs have evolved over time. The first generation slabs from TPGs were radically different from their current generation. Sure, they're still a resin case with a clear window. But NGC's "fatty" or "soap bar" slabs are so big and thick they're kind of silly by todays aesthetic. There are no prongs, no bar codes. The same is true for PCGS. Their rattler slabs were as tiny as NGC's first slabs were big. No holograms, no bar codes. No NFC chip. Fortunately, the same hobby that pursues scholarly inquiry into the objects we collect has focused that energy on the generations of slabs which encapsulate them, with all of their quirky characteristics and unique identifiers. PCGS has a virtual "Museum of Coin Holders" on this very website (it's fascinating, take a peek). But as those generations of slabs have evolved, so too have grading standards. It's not difficult to understand the concept of early conservative grading. With no basis for comparison and no information about surviving populations vs. mintages, especially for coins subject to the massive meltings experienced over the last century, it was prudent for reputable TPGs to be strict early on. The subsequent phenomenon called "cracking out" of older, more conservatively graded coins and resubmitting them for a stronger current grade has been covered endlessly on this and other venues. That phenomenon had kind of a reverse Gresham's Law effect on early slab populations: The well struck coins with strong eye appeal were easy targets for cracking out and regrading to their highest deserved grade. The coins less likely to receive an upgrade were left in those early slabs. To the experienced collectors and dealers, being wary of older slabs in 2021 makes sense for that very reason. But for the rest of us, the feeling that all early slabs are conservatively graded and desirable is hard to shake.
And maybe that's because there are still some unicorns out there. Coins that are gorgeous, often held in really strong hands. In my experience, these pieces were slabbed early on for consistency and protection, where perceived value was less important by numismatists uninterested in "upgrades".
I'm a box of 20 collector, where my collection is limited to around 20 pieces. I've chosen to collect pieces that are iconic, mean something to me personally, and that I think are exceptional. Because real estate in my collection is limited, anything special or noteworthy about those few coins (I call it "the extra") expands their significance. If that extra simultaneously makes their population more limited and their acquisition more challenging--that's icing on the cake. I feel that older slabs, especially those really early ones, are an important extra.
A coin is a coin, right? So why did a collector 35 years ago select this one coin for the nascent, unproven (and not without expense) concept of encapsulation? What made this example special? And why did that coin among all the others survive? Not just time, or being lost, or being in a fire or flood. But the crack out game?
And that's where my high opinion of CAC comes in. It's another "extra". It's an assurance that the coin within the slab is one worthy of pursuit--especially because I've chosen to make the pursuit of those early slabs part of the focus of my collection and as the populations of those exceptional coins in early slabs disappear. And we should be clear on this: that piece of our numismatic history is disappearing. Consider that the number of coins that made it into those original slabs was probably quite low in the first place, especially compared to today's more recent generations. I would wager hundreds if not thousands of those early survivors are cracked into every day. I just did an eBay search on "PCGS peace dollar". That search returned 1,937 listings. A search of "PCGS Peace Dollar Rattler" produced just 40 listings. Of course not everyone calls those early slabs "rattlers". But those that did account for just 2% of current eBay listings. And the number of those rattler listings with CAC stickers? 0%.
So a CAC sticker is both an extra by itself, and affirmation that not only is the coin contained within legitimate, but the other significant extra of my collection--the early slab--is legitimate, too.
--Severian the Lame
Comments
Can somebody summarize this for me?
I ain't readin' all that.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
He likes CAC stickered coins.
Dave
That was almost like reading War and Peace.
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You have been collecting for 50 years and haven't learned how to evaluate a coin for yourself? Sorry you have to insult your integrity with such a long post!
You don't have to read a post this long. But if you don't, maybe you shouldn't comment on it.
--Severian the Lame
His "integrity" sounds firmly intact to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
LOL! What makes you think I didn't read it?
Maybe integrity wasn't the right word to use...but I didn't want to use inability to learn!
As a side...if the CAC choir keeps shoving the sh*t out on this forum I'll continue to attack!
Nice looking Pine Tree Shilling.
Oh good, an ad hominem attack.
ad hominem: adj. Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Summary: CAC is good.
I now view CAC simply as a fact of life in the US coin marketplace. I don't personally have a need to have all or most of the coins in my collection validated by them, but certainly make no bones with those who do. I often submit coins to CAC (through GC) before putting them up for auction, and conversely don't mind paying a reasonable premium for a stickered coin since it is usually more liquid if and when I go to sell it. YMMV.
Weiss, I love your set and the coins you choose to collect. But I actually think your box of 20 (and the coins in the image) would be even more impressive without the stickers.
Hear me out: There's nothing more exciting than finding the "unicorns", and a box of unstickered old holders with obviously premium coins in them is the holy grail, right? Let the viewer imagine what color sticker they'll receive. It's obvious it'll be green at least.
Well written and thoughtful. On holders, slabs etc, I like the PCGS slabs the best, followed by the ANACs and then the NGC. That being said, I really think NGC has done fore for varieties than PCGS. The latest trend toward "branding" certain coin series is both good and bad. For example, I like it when there is a theme such as "westward journey nickles" but not when there are both Biden and Trump appearing like campaign ads on ASE's. I'm just saying, lets stick with themes that dont involve politics. After all US coin collectors are already patriots.
Who cares whether the coin is in an old or new holder? Stickered or not? It's supposed to be the coin isn't it?
As a footnote: I think NGS's grading is as good as PCGS. NGC doesnt get enough respect. My opinion is out about IGC, but I do have a Slew of Dan Carr coins in IGC holders that look as new as they did 10 years ago. no problemo.
A healthy dose of passion went into sharing that. I like a little CAC in my bean soup too. They make good coins look better.
It's like Kool-Aid with love.
Weiss, I'll defend your prose for that Pine Tree.
In addition to the side comments about "learning", it's my opinion the OP learned an awesome lesson in acquisition over the past few years. Solid footing he is on.
@jmlanzaf not quite. The old holder lends some mystique (as explained by OP) and is a signal to look more closely. The CAC stickers however can then act to remove the mystique in some cases.
Is that 1921 dollar just a nice old-holdered MS65? I guess that's what the green sticker is saying. But without it...
So let's see... You need to get a CAC sticker because people aren't as interested and pay less for coins without them but if you don't have one, it gets people to look closer?
CAC- is there anything it can't do?
It's silly. Most people argue, "it's the coin not the holder" or "it's the coin not the sticker". Now, they've changed it to, "it's the lack of sticker". @scubafuel then the real mystique belongs to the raw coin.
Don’t be a jerk
Latin American Collection
It's like I'm playing Whack-A-Cackler
My Saint Set
I dont get this response, some of the best dealers in the industry send their coins to CAC, LEGENDs auctions, send their coins to CAC. There is a market behind CAC, thats why it works to have them stickered.
RAD#306
The old holder lends some mystique (as explained by OP) and is a signal to look more closely. The CAC stickers however can then act to remove the mystique in some cases.
This guy gets it.
FWIW: I just did a search of "1921 Peace Dollar MS65 CAC" on HA.com trying to find the frequency of first generation slabs (in this case roughly pre-OGH time period).
They sold one green Gen 4 NGC in 2018
Before that, you'd have to go back to 2013 to find a rattler. So two in the last 8 or 9 years, out of about 70 1921 Peace Dollars in PCGS MS65 CAC.
I get it's not a scientific census of Fatty and Rattler 1921 peace dollar populations. But I think it's a pretty fair representation. This part of our numismatic history is evaporating. And I think it's pretty cool, interesting, and important.
--Severian the Lame
Do you really think you have the right to appreciate and collect as you please, without being ridiculed by some of those who have different opinions?😮
😉
Enjoy.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A thoughtful post, well stated. I’m sorry that several of your fellow members enjoy ridiculing you.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
From my very limited experience looking at images of coins with CAC stickers, I think CAC is good for determining the quality of a coin (especially when it is not in-hand) but I also think CAC might put stickers on some really valuable coins that don't deserve one. Maybe the people at CAC feel obligated to sticker a high-value coin. Just my opinion, I am relatively new to slabbed coins.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
Excellent write-up. I am not a fan of CAC, partly because I find their printed ads to be really cocky, but I appreciate the thought that CAC can recognize a coin that was graded too conservatively in the early days of slabbing. Grading will always be a matter of opinion, and human error will also always exist, and there will never be an exact science to this art. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and a collector should be allowed to collect what they want, not just for the investment.
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I like to give Weiss crap because I feel we "know" each other pretty well over the years and we share the same sense of humor. For what it's worth, I did read the post and agree 100%.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
CAC has declined to sticker many coins of very high value - 1804 dollars quickly come to mind.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I’m not sure why. JA has publicly opined that the graffiti on the Dexter specimen of the 1804 dollar did not preclude it from stickering. If graffiti isn’t enough to fail a coin, I don’t know what is.
That's just the way it is now a days. You say the sky is blue and you are gonna get ridiculed by a few that call you a liar. Modern technology has brought out the best of the "keyboard tough guys".
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Thanks for sharing the human dimension of your hobby Weiss, and thanks for keeping the hobby in perspective. Those very aesthetic coins are very close to what I would consider as meeting many criteria for very desirable. Except for the last coin, I think the California commem. is more interesting and iconic with the bear and man panning for gold.
I like Weiss's write ups.
The only thing I don't agree with is limiting myself to only 20!
I do, however, like the discipline of choosing them very carefully though...
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Well, the sky isn't really blue, it just appears to be blue due to light absorption...
What, this old thing?
--Severian the Lame
@Steven59 LOL
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Somehow I knew I'd run into you tonight. Yes Jack, and that is also why the birds "Blue Jays" seem blue - but they really are brown from the pigment melanin.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
As a longtime collector (started in 1958) way before TPG's, I have bunches of sets and individual coins. As I get older, I have to think about the end of my collecting days. Since the advent of third party grading it is evident that it is easier to sell a coin if slabbed. CAC has a place in this market as they do seem to bring more with a sticker when sold. The slabs also are good for rooting out counterfeit coins which have been around for decades. I have some coins that I had slabbed just as a kind of guarantee that the coin is real. It all comes down to the money like everything else, Right.
C'mon @gumby1234 -
Must have been when U2 made their album
But seriously , back to the OP's topic.......
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Best, most holistic post I’ve read in my short time here (but even longer than the OP in the hobby). Wise perspective, whether you like/dislike/don’t care about CAC.
Buying and Selling coins for 54 years, 700+ shows in last 20 years, and boy am I tired.
Purchased and Trademarked the Mohawk Valley Hoard
Originated the Rochester (NY) Area Coin Expo
I think the original post was well written and thoughtful. I agree with him.
You wonder how many more years before the grading standards change even more and consume even more old holder coins? What will that do for the value of those that are kept in strong enough hands?
Look at the value of black NGC plastic in recent years….wow.
Are you confused ?
Ping Pong ?
You could just laugh at the joke...
OK, I give......HA!HA!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Amwldcoins:
You and I go a long way back as fellow coin dealer and collector respectively. My good friend has bought about a dozen of your barber halves over the years. I have been involved in at least one of his transactions.
Eleven of the twelve has easily achieved CAC stickering of which two achieved gold stickers. I have seen you grade coin and you are top drawer in your speciality indeed.
The only barber half that did not sticker failed only because of a small PVC infected area that was spotted by CAC and was subsequently resubmitted to PCGS for removing the PVC. The PVC removal project was successful as PCGS reholdered the coin in the same grade.
He resubmitted to CAC which then green stickered the new PCGS slab.
I realize you feel strongly that you back up what you sell and feel that stickering your inventory is redundant.
However, I was surprised to read that you criticized another collector who only collected and kept 20 coins after 50 years for not learning how to grade for himself.
Believe me, if you or I only collected 20 coins after 50 years which is less than one single coin every two years both of us would not advance our knowledge of grading either. LOL.
Weiss, the OP, was smart enough to realize that as a casual and very occasional coin collector was better off relying on respected others in the industry rather than relying on his own knowledge just like some of us rely on great investment advisors for investing rather than a do it yourself approach.
Not every collector has the ability to grade coins even after years of studying.
@Weiss
I really like the NGC second gen. Is that a 2.0 or 2.1
I always thought the gold sticker would go great with that particular generation as the reverse logo is a gold foil (and on the inside or outside depending on which gen)
It's all about what the people want...
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
The notion of CAC validating that an older holder (whose generation has been 'picked over' by crackout artists) does hold a strong-for-the-grade coin is a new take for me.
Interesting take on the old saying 'bird in the hand is worth two in the bush' pertaining to the comment on coins without a CAC sticker garnering more interest than the same coin stickered.
How many years have these CAC threads been going and going and going? Such legs on this issue....
Your examples are first rate - the silver dollar looks fab and the gold dollar appears to have potent luster - hopefully you'll share some of the other 15. Tip of the cap on being able to limit yourself to the box of 20 concept.